Black America

[Henri Christophe]

Well if that's the case then President Barack Obama and Nilo Peçanha aren't black according to your pictures.

Both presidentes and Negro Abraham isn't black, they are mix race black with someone else.

Everyone agreed with you, and there was no real contention, about Henri Christophe of Haiti for "at least one Black American civ in game." But that was never enough for you. You had to carry on and insist on dying on several other hills in unwinnable debates that showed a lack of understanding and education on these affairs and a callousness toward several Native American cultures and using oblique references with no real backing or credibility to attempt cultural erasure to portray as "Back Americans," when they were not, and constantly a theory of race division by a long debunked racist. Why is Haiti not enough?

Haiti and Palmares just have moods right now, I will be very glad if Haiti become a Civ, they are the best option to fullfill this Black America Civ vaccum there is in this game.
But I like to show all options there is, because once, Patine, you was against Haiti too, do you remember when you said Haiti isn't an Empire just because they are small or something like it?

Yeah i think both Haiti and Palmares are really good representation of Black America and Caribbean America, so i don't understand this thing of messing with Indigenous representation

I just put all options I can think, other black civilizations in AMericas (as Moskitos and Garifunas) I don't know a great leader to them.

 

[Patine]

But I like to show all options there is, because once, Patine, you was against Haiti too, do you remember when you said Haiti isn't an Empire just because they are small or something like it?

Okay, I see this slanderous lie has resurfaced again. I was NEVER against the inclusion of Haiti as a civ. Period. Full stop. Saying I was (and this isn't the first) is a manipulative lie, so please STOP. I was merely quibbling about the concept of Haiti being an 'empire," in pretense because of the title taken by Henri Christophe as opposed to the generally understood definition of "empire," but being an "empire," by definition was NEVER an issue or mandatory perquisite for game inclusion to me - that was a @PhoenicianGold hang up. Capeche!

I just put all options I can think, other black civilizations in AMericas (as Moskitos and Garifunas) I don't know a great leader to them.

The Moskito and Garifuna are NOT Black American civ's, and neither are the Seminole or Olmec. This is the "Native American erasure to contrive extra Black American civ's that weren't Black American," I (and many others here) were so upset about, and you just can't, or won't see. I was NEVER opposed to Haiti's inclusion in game, and neither was anyone else - it was this Native American erasure to create contrived Black American civ slots. Do you UNDERSTAND this?

 

[Birch617]

The Moskito and Garifuna are NOT Black American civ's

I'm gonna disaagre with you there to a certain degree, Miskito and Garifuna people are of african ancestry, but in the end they are mixed race people that embrace more their native side of their ancestry, so yeah they are more of a mixrace civ; like the Metis, we wouldn't call them a white/european civ but a mix race one as well

Haiti and Palmares just have moods right now, I will be very glad if Haiti become a Civ

Haiti and Palamares have the biggest chance to become civilizations, the other black american group i could see in the game would be Palenqueros represented by Palenque de San Basilio as city-state (they did have a leader, but things like an UU would be hard to create; still they would work fine as Cultural CS)

 

[Patine]

I'm gonna disaagre with you there to a certain degree, Miskito and Garifuna people are of african ancestry, but in the end they are mixed race people that embrace more their native side of their ancestry, so yeah they are more of a mixrace civ; like the Metis, we wouldn't call them a white/european civ but a mix race one as well

No, they are a Native American people (and the Miskito language is a Native American language - related to certain other Native Central American languages), as is their long, pre-Colonial habitation in Eastern Nicaragua. They welcomed refugees fleeing the crackdown of the Maroon Rebellion in Jamaica, and the two became intertwined closely, but to say their ORIGINAL ancestry and origin is African, or saying they're equivalent to Metis, is not correct at all.

 

[Henri Christophe]

Haiti and Palamares have the biggest chance to become civilizations, the other black american group i could see in the game would be Palenqueros represented by Palenque de San Basilio as city-state (they did have a leader, but things like an UU would be hard to create; still they would work fine as Cultural CS)

I think it is impossible to have a Civ as Palmares, because the idea of a peek of a nation, but, I would love if it have at least a mood to civ 6.

 

[leif erikson]

Moderator Action: This discussion has current events as well as a history discussions. Moved to the World History forum.

 

[Xandinho]

Discussing about Haiti as a civ, let's be honest, it has a very low chance to be a civ in NFP. The last civ in March should be Portugal or a native of NA.
And I think that even in a second round of passes it has a very low chance. Yeah, Haiti has received a lot of demands around here, but here the people are history fanatics and we are more familiar with Haiti history and Henri Christophe, but in the big scheme of things, I don't think that it would be marketable enough to be launched in a separed DLC. Said that, the chances of Haiti as a civ would be in an expansion which it would come with some big and marketable names like Iroquois, Assyria and Austria.
But would be pretty cool having Haiti in the game, not only because it would be another francophone nation but also due to the outfit of Henri Christophe.

Regarding to Palmares, I don't think that it would make sense as a civ. Maybe a city-state...yeah, it can work as city-state, but Dandara was just included in the game as Great General, which I think is a much better representation for Palmares than Palmares itself as a city-state.

 

[Henri Christophe]

Discussing about Haiti as a civ, let's be honest, it has a very low chance to be a civ in NFP. The last civ in March should be Portugal or a native of NA.
And I think that even in a second round of passes it has a very low chance. Yeah, Haiti has received a lot of demands around here, but here the people are history fanatics and we are more familiar with Haiti history and Henri Christophe, but in the big scheme of things, I don't think that it would be marketable enough to be launched in a separed DLC. Said that, the chances of Haiti as a civ would be in an expansion which it would come with some big and marketable names like Iroquois, Assyria and Austria.
But would be pretty cool having Haiti in the game, not only because it would be another francophone nation but also due to the outfit of Henri Christophe.

Regarding to Palmares, I don't think that it would make sense as a civ. Maybe a city-state...yeah, it can work as city-state, but Dandara was just included in the game as Great General, which I think is a much better representation for Palmares than Palmares itself as a city-state.

I would love an North America Expansion with Iroquois and Haiti, about the Haiti leader, I don't think Henri Christophe is the best option since Toussaint L'Ouverture is more amazing, I hope if Haiti become a civ in Civilization 6, Henri Christophe can become an alternative leader to Haiti in Civilization 7.

About Palmares, I guess it should be an amazing Civ to a very empity spot in world map, the North East of South America is not just empity, but I can't think in another option to this spot than Palmares. They can have the Capoeira fighters as the same status as the Monk Warriors < https://civilization.fandom.com/wiki/Warrior_Monk_(Civ6) >

Speaking about Dandara as a great general, Brazil (and South America) have a lot of names who wasn't great persons in this game it should have. For example Duque de Caxias as great General or Santos Dummont as a Great Enginner.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Both presidentes and Negro Abraham isn't black, they are mix race black with someone else.

Then why even bring them up in the first place?

Like @Xandinho said above if we were to get a "black" civilization, or leader, in Civ 6 Haiti would be the best and probably only option.

 

[Henri Christophe]

Then why even bring them up in the first place?

Like @Xandinho said above if we were to get a "black" civilization, or leader, in Civ 6 Haiti would be the best and probably only option.

to show all option to fullfill this spot in this game, but don't need to be 100% Black to fulfill this spot.
By US census just need one black drop to be black, remember?

 

[Patine]

to show all option to fullfill this spot in this game, but don't need to be 100% Black to fulfill this spot.
By US census just need one black drop to be black, remember?

You mean old Deep South U.S. Census Law. The "one-drop," rule is not honoured in the modern U.S., and is in fact considered racist as an institution today, a relic from the Jim Crow laws. Race is legally mostly by self-identification in modern U.S. Census Law. In fact, there's a "no response," option on that like they do with ethnic heritage and religion, now, too.

 

[Henri Christophe]

You mean old Deep South U.S. Census Law. The "one-drop," rule is not honoured in the modern U.S., and is in fact considered racist as an institution today, a relic from the Jim Crow laws. Race is legally mostly by self-identification in modern U.S. Census Law. In fact, there's a "no response," option on that like they do with ethnic heritage and religion, now, too.

Even if Barack Obama have family from Jakarta, isn't he a Black Person?
In Brazilian Black movement they like this one drop rule to have more black person in the moviment.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Even if Barack Obama have family from Jakarta, isn't he a Black Person?

That would make him Indonesian.
His father was from Kenya. The problem is Barack Obama is still alive, and too recent, to be considered for an official leader for the game.

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

That would make him Indonesian.
His father was from Kenya. The problem is Barack Obama is still alive, and too recent, to be considered for an official leader for the game.

No leader before Reagan is my attitude towards potential Leaders.

 

[Patine]

In Brazilian Black movement they like this one drop rule to have more black person in the moviment.

Just because Brazil still does it doesn't mean the U.S. hasn't left it behind and now considers it a racist remnant of the Jim Crow era. Different nations have different laws and viewpoints. You can't pretend that magically doesn't apply to make these kind of contrived points.

 

[Kyriakos]

Tbh, Haiti isn't relevant enough to be a civ. Then again, we had Norway, which isn't exactly relevant either, so...
Even Cuba would be a better choice than Haiti, if you just had to include some american island civ.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Tbh, Haiti isn't relevant enough to be a civ. Then again, we had Norway, which isn't exactly relevant either, so...
Even Cuba would be a better choice than Haiti, if you just had to include some american island civ.

Norway is clearly supposed to be the Viking civ so I would say for that reason alone it is relevant to put in the game. Should have gone with Georgia instead.

I think historically speaking Haiti is more relevant than Cuba, at least, considering the events surrounding the Haitian revolution with them being the first successful slave revolt, nation to abolish slavery, and being the first independent republic in the Caribbean/Latin America.

Not to mention, to go along with the idea of this thread, is that it would be culturally different from the other post-colonial nations with a leader, and units being primarily black of African descent, and French speaking (though Canada has some of it).

 

[Patine]

I think historically speaking Haiti is more relevant than Cuba, at least, considering the events surrounding the Haitian revolution with them being the first successful slave revolt, nation to abolish slavery, and being the first independent republic in the Caribbean/Latin America.

Not to mention, to go along with the idea of this thread, is that it would be culturally different from the other post-colonial nations with a leader, and units being primarily black of African descent, and French speaking

To date, the ONLY successful slave revolt, nation to abolish slavery, and being the first independent republic anywhere in the world.

(though Canada has some of it).

Yes, less than 20% primary speakers, but aggressively over-represented in Canadian politics, and annoyingly so in Canadian linguistic laws...

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Yes, less than 20% primary speakers, but aggressively over-represented in Canadian politics, and annoyingly so in Canadian linguistic laws...

Right well I only meant that Laurier in game goes back and forth between both English and French, so one could say that Canada is kind of represented as the Francophone post-colonial nation in the game.

 

[Henri Christophe]

To date, the ONLY successful slave revolt, nation to abolish slavery, and being the first independent republic anywhere in the world.

I'm so happy to see you speaking good things about Haiti XD
But Haiti was the 2nd republic of the modern world, the first was USA.
But it is the first country to speak of race equality, in Haiti, don't matter the color of your skin everybody is black
(It is funny because have a Polish minority in Haiti)