Blackbetsy HOF Attempts

I shut down last night at 340 AD (turn 149), and after Electricity in 5 turns, I did SciMeth, Replaceable Parts (barely), and the Corporation in 4 turns, and I'm finishing up Steel in the Golden Age. It leaves Refining, Combustion, Mass Prod, Motorized and Flight. Mass Prod and Motorized are easy 4 turns, but Refining and Combustion will take a little work on turning citizens into specialists and Flight is going to be a stretch to 4 turn, but it's possible - I do need probably 30 more citizens before then.

I've got a very good handle on the Palace pre-build at this point so as long as someone pulls Fission it's a 570-580 finish. Notably, I didn't trade for Nationalism from the one AI who got it and I stopped gifting the AI once they had Steam Power and Medicine. That means I can get Nationalism in trade for Atomic Theory at the Big Picture phase and as long as the one AI who got Nationalism isn't the only one to get Fission, a package of Nationalism + 320 gpt should do it.

If I get very bad luck at the Modern Age Big Picture and no one pulls Fission - I'd be in jeopardy of falling to second place unless I can get Fission done fast. Right now CivAssist says I'd get it done in 7 turns, so I'd have to shave it down to at least 6.
 
Bartleby said:
How many workers do you have? could you spare any to boost your specialist farms?
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That's a good idea; in general I tend to be on the low side and I haven't done any conquest to create slaves. I need to keep a bunch to re-mine / irrigate tiles for manipulating the ToE and Palace. But I could probably join some workers.

One of the things about these fast growth low level science games is that I find myself having outlying cities who are still getting down their first couple of irrigation tiles (mostly 3 irrigated tiles is enough) even at the end of the game. I think I have 72 cities in this game and I am still working through tiles in the outer core. My core is bordered by a huge thick jungle on the northwest that makes a couple of cities I planted near bananas (and to save roadbuilding turns) small. And, had I not had a fast start, I would probably have junked this map because of all of the marshlands near the core. But there are also a lot of floodplains for fast city growth as well.
 
We got it @580 AD. If accepted, the #1 Large Warlord Diplo game.

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Scanning the Diplo Emperor tables (I have a #4 best rank on Emperor, need to get that down), I don't see an obvious choice for me to move up to a #2 or #1 spot. At Emperor, you have to pay a lot more attention to the AI, which could be problematic for me after all these games against the weak Warlord and Chieftain AI.

Diplo Tiny Emperor - 540 AD @Calis #1, 610AD @AutomatedTeller #2. Those are very, very, very good performances on a Tiny map with Emperor AI that are actually going to get in your face with expansion.

Diplo Small Emperor - 460 AD @archphoenix #1, @Tone 500AD #2. I suspect Small is a bit faster than Tiny (more AI for Big Picture, more huts) but archphoenix did it with the Ottomans! Impressive stuff.

Diplo Standard Emperor - 500 AD @Tone #1, 560 AD Aigburth #2. Tone and Aigburth. That tells you right there that those are high quality games.

Diplo Large Emperor - 700 AD @Aigburth #1, 730 AD @Nikodemus #2. This one is interesting. On a Large map you can get a huge civ fast with the Pyramids when you play against only 7-8 opponents. It's worth considering. Emperor is much harder and you have to pay attention to the AI BUT it is compensated by the fact that the AI will do some research for you, speeding up the game. Korea / Korea on #1, #2 makes me think Commercial and better OCN and commerce bonus in cities plays a factor here.

Diplo Huge Emperor - 760 AD @Tone #1, 910 AD @Chamnix #2. This is Russia/Russia, which is interesting. At Huge, the research costs are so big that the advantage of the Ancient Age hut pops do wear off really fast and those Medieval and Industrial Age techs are expensive. But so are the ancient age techs as well. Chamnix is 15 turns behind Tone here, I wonder if #2 is ripe here. But I have lots of respect for Chamnix.

Going over to Spaceship, it's:

Tiny - @Calis 900, @Nikodemus 1270 AD. 46 turns between Calis Diplo and Spaceship is more than I'd expect. Nikodemus is 68 turns slower than Automated Teller's Diplo #2 game. That makes me think there is a good shot at #2 here. I threw up a 1470 AD Tiny Demigod SS game last month, and Demigod is much harder. I don't remember if I got an SGL or not. Hmmm.

Small - @jarred! 970AD, @Chamnix 1030AD. I played this board for giggles to make it all Sumerian (finish 1365AD) but now wondering whether the Russian strategy could propel me up to #2 here. Am I 45 turns better? If I play for Pyramids and the other things I've learned....maybe.

Standard - @Tone 1130AD, @Tone 1180 AD. Russia and Sumeria. What an unbelievable player Tone is, doing #1 and #2 with two different civs. That said, 63 turns is a lot between Tone's Standard Diplo and Spaceship victory. It makes me think hard about this one. Could I possibly beat @Tone? Seems unlikely but I might try to see what I can do.

Large - @Spoonwood 1050AD, @iPwn 1270 AD. Spoonwood just did this one recently (May 2024) and it's only 35 turns slower than Aigburth's Large diplo win. This one seems like a game of high excellence (which you expect from Spoonwood of course). iPwn I don't know, 1270 is 56 turns slower than the Large Diplo which I noted above seemed possible. I don't think I could touch Spoonwood but a #2 seems very possible here.

Huge - @Tone 1200 AD, @Takeo 1320 AD. Tone is 44 turns behind his Huge Diplo, which is a little slower than I'd expect but still very good. Takeo is 48 turns behind the #2 Diplo game, which I suspected was slow. I am on this board with 1560 in May...a game I wrote up. I got an SGL for Writing, built the Pyramids, and had Colossus /Cope / Newton's. I know I had some serious war issues in that game. I wonder how I'd play it again. Am I 48 turns better?
 
Bartleby said:
How viable is hut-popping on Emeror anyway? I went with Sumeria and no barbs for my Huge Emperor Spaceship game this year.
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I think if you get your scouts out there, and you don't crowd the map, it's very viable. I definitely ran out of techs to pop from huts on Warlord so I had more than enough. I think if you can get 4-5 techs from huts in the Ancient Age, and trade for others, it's pretty good. Emperor AI will research Poly and Iron Working for you for sure, so the list of techs you need to research is pretty low. But I'll find out.
 
Getting tech is less likely at Emperor though, isn't it? I'm a pessimist and I hate the thought of having an SGL game go arseways because I had a bad hut-streak.
 
Bartleby said:
Getting tech is less likely at Emperor though, isn't it? I'm a pessimist and I hate the thought of having an SGL game go arseways because I had a bad hut-streak.
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Only slightly. It's like 33% vs. 46%. There is that War Academy Article that says its 25% at Emperor but that includes like a 25% chance of popping a settler / city. You have to remove those possibilities and you get 25% / 75% or 33%. At Warlord, it's 35% / 75%, 46%. I *think* that's how it works.

So 12 huts to get 4 techs on average, vs. 10 huts at Warlord. Popping 12 huts at Emperor on a Large map is reasonable, I think. If you don't pop huts until you've made contact and have the starting techs, you should probably pop pretty good techs.

Gonna try a run at Regent, where AI show up to play every once in a while, and see what it's like.
 
BlackBetsy said:
Spoonwood just did this one recently (May 2024) and it's only 35 turns slower than Aigburth's Large diplo win. This one seems like a game of high excellence (which you expect from Spoonwood of course). iPwn I don't know, 1270 is 56 turns slower than the Large Diplo which I noted above seemed possible. I don't think I could touch Spoonwood but a #2 seems very possible here.
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Note that the Demigod Large Spaceship 1st place game is 1020 AD, 3 turns quicker than the Emperor one. I did NOT have a Pyramids SGL in the Emperor game. I got Invention, and Ironclads as free techs. I did get Miniaturization though as freetech. The Demigod game, did have a Pyramids SGL. Though, one can trade for techs more readily with AIs on Demigod than Emperor. Still, I do think launching faster on Large Emperor conceviable.

I had to look to remember what I did for diplomatic games. It turns out I just did Persia or The Ottomans. I must have had some Ceremonial Burial SGL, and neither game had a focus on hut popping (maybe barbarians were off?).
 
Ok, now I feel a little dumb / unlucky / BUT hopeful for a chance. This start (Large Regent) turned out pretty well and I popped every Ancient Age tech possible (holding off while I was researching Code of Laws), got into the Medieval Age in 1475 BC. Medieval Age tech was Theology, but no one had Engineering and I hadn't met everyone yet. After the 2nd new AI, four turns later, put them into the Medieval Ages and got Engineering from them. Education was still 18 turns at the start, but I got it down dramatically after that. I played sloppy at the beginning - again, this was just more of a test than an actual game, so I could have done a lot better. I wasted some builds on workers I immediately disbanded, had some cities go into disorder, etc.

Hit the Industrial Ages in 190 AD. Traded for Nationalism (a mistake) and pulled Ironclads (ugh) then had to 6 turn Electricity before I was able to trigger the Golden Age with Newton's. Industrialization in 4, Corp will be in 4, SciMeth will be 4, too.

I'm 330AD now and have 9 techs left in the Industrial Ages. That's 36 turns if I can 4 turn it, and a 690 AD finish for a #1. But I am barely scraping out 4 tun Corp in a golden age at 90%, producing 1055 beakers per turn. 90% because I need 10% luxes since I only have 4 natives and am trading for 1 lux. Refining is 5120 beakers, Rep Parts is 4480, so I need to increase beakers by 65 per turn to hit Rep Parts (not a problem) and a whopping 235 beakers per turn for Refining. Sheesh. Flight is 5760, 1440 beakers per turn, about 400 beakers per turn more than I'm doing in a golden age. I don't know if I break down at Refining or make it all the way to Flight before I can't 4 turn. But I have a hard time thinking I can get there. I only have 52 cities; at Large Warlord I had 72 and could 0% luxes.

#2 is archphoenix @ 840, 14 turns behind and I'll do that without a problem, I think. Had I not pulled Ironclads, and had the AI gotten Engineering at the turn of the Medieval Age, I would have a #1 slot for sure.

Still, a #2 Regent / #2 Standard moves me up a slot in the Octathlon and Pentathlon, so that isn't anything.

My guess is that with another shot, I can get the #1 slot. Since this is my first (!!!) map, I've got 71 more shots if I want go for #1 here.
 
I've played 3 additional turns and...well, Aigburth's Standard Regent Diplo #1 spot is safe for now. I just don't have enough commerce to be able to 4 turn the rest of the Industrial Age techs. CivAssist is some help here to define the problem. For Large Regent, Flight is 5760 beakers. In our Golden Age we are generating 1175 beakers per turn at 100% science, which is 6 turns for Flight. Now, we haven't created any specialist farms yet, so if Flight were my next tech with enough turns left on the Golden Age, I'd have it locked up. But we can't run 100% science because we have only 4 luxes (3 native 1 traded for .... 1 unconnected but not likely to be connected soon).

Outside of a Golden Age, we can push out 860 beakers per turn at 100%, but only 685 at 90%. 5760 divided by 4 is 1445 beakers per turn....meaning that I'm not even half way to generating that kind of commerce. Even if I trade for 2 more luxes (the Regent AI are behind, no Navigation anywhere to hook to my ports / get maps / create sea trading routes) and get up to 860 beakers per turn, that's still 585 beakers behind. I know I have added 120 beakers per turn in my Golden Age (presumably 60 outside of it) in the last 3 turns, so maybe max science outside of a Golden Age gets up to 1,000 per turn over the 11 turns I have left in the Golden Age, but it still leaves me 345 beakers per turn short.

That's where the 52 cities I have is a problem. I'd have to create 115 scientist creating +3 beakers per scientist to hit that number. If I had 52 *specialist farms* at size 6, that wouldn't be a problem. But I have 52 cities total, and my OCN is in the 20's, so I really only have 25 or so cities ripe for specialist farms, and if I got 9 additional uncorrupted beakers from them each, it's only 225 beakers per turn. Some of them aren't able to generate 3 scientists, however.

I think this is probably a 740 AD - 760 AD finish. I'll probably have to 5-6 turn Refining, and 5-6 Flight, with maybe another 5 turn in there somewhere. Certainly an annoying getting Ironclads/ AI not getting Engineering luck number of turns away from the #1 spot.

52 cities is a result of the Sumerians being my neighbors. They spread really fast, blocked me to the west, and every other civ is much smaller than them - there is a HUGE territory to the west of them completely unclaimed that I simply can't get to in a reasonable number of turns to settle another 30 cities. I stopped my expansion earlier than I would have liked because of their existence.

Probably what I need is at least 75 cities to beat Aigburth next time. If I have good Big Picture luck and can get to 75 cities, I think 600 AD is very possible, or even possibly in the 500's.

Note - waiting outside huts for starting techs while you contact other civs for initial techs is probably not necessary at the Large size. I had huts to spare.
 
Finished Large Regent Diplo @ 740 AD. Would have been 730 AD had I not forgot that the Sumerians were supplying me a lux and my cities revolted because I forgot to adjust lux slider. It was irrelevant anyway; the Sumerians weren't my opponent in the election.

Pulling Ironclads was what did me in, otherwise I'd have a #1 spot.

Edit - after all these years, Large Regent Diplo wasn't even a full table! Just realized it. Also, I was on that board from early in my 2024 run and just beat my previous by 78 turns, which is shows how far I've come.
 
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Map I liked with early settler pop + great Colossus site, hung around to 3rd tech (a no no in my rules) but got SGL on Writing. Bad hut luck so I had to slow down Philo, but then burned right ahead really fast. Good luck on Big Picture @1325 BC to get Theo, but now Education is 19 turns @90% (need 10% lux). We will see what I do, pattern is similar to last game, but was in Medieval Age a bit later at the same research. Library on Colossus should do wonders (no pun intended) in a couple of turns. May build Maus to get faster Golden Age, help happiness in Colossus city.
 
BlackBetsy said:
Map I liked with early settler pop + great Colossus site, hung around to 3rd tech (a no no in my rules) but got SGL on Writing. Bad hut luck so I had to slow down Philo, but then burned right ahead really fast. Good luck on Big Picture @1325 BC to get Theo, but now Education is 19 turns @90% (need 10% lux). We will see what I do, pattern is similar to last game, but was in Medieval Age a bit later at the same research. Library on Colossus should do wonders (no pun intended) in a couple of turns. May build Maus to get faster Golden Age, help happiness in Colossus city.
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Pushing for cities slowed my science, as I really only got to 4 turn research in the Medieval Age at the end of it. I entered the Industrial Age in 230 AD, which is 2 turns slower than last time, but with more research momentum. I pulled Nationalism rather than Electricity or Industrialization. That's going to cost me 4 turns (I made a big effort to get Electricity down to 4 turns @100% science). I've got 75 cities this time instead of 52, so I've got a chance of specialist farms bailing me out on science. They need to grow, though.

Right now I'm at 370 AD (turn 152) with 2 turns left on the Corporation and my golden age ending. I can easily do Sci Meth in 4 turns out of the Golden Age (should be able to do it on like 80% science), and I need to use those 4 turns to really up my game on the beakers per turn.

It's 32 turns to my goal of 690 AD (turn 184) and a #1 finish. I've got 2 turns left on Corp, then SciMeth, Steel, Refining, Combustion, Mass Production, Motorized, and Flight. If I 4 turn everything, it's turn 182...meaning I have just 2 turns to spare. If I have to give up a turn for Combustion, Flight and Refining...I'm dead. So I need to 4 turn at least one of them. My 740AD game score was 5460. So it is somewhat possible that I could outscore Scratcher's 700 AD #1 but just a tiny bit assuming I am scoring as well on this game as the last.

It's going to be incredibly tight. Again, failing to pull Industrialization / Electricity is more than the margin I've got here and I'd be essentially locked in on the #1 spot if I had 6 turns to play with instead of 2.
 
It's now 430 AD and SciMeth is done, and Steel is 4 as of some adjustments 52 cities in, which means Mass Prod and Motorized are 4 as well. So it's just Combustion, Flight, and Refining. I'm generating 1193 beakers per turn after the adjustments, good enough for 4772 beakers in 4 turns. That actually is well above the 4480 beakers for Steel, Mass Prod and Motorized.

Refining and Combustion are 5120 beakers. So I've got a 348 beaker gap to fill, or 87 per turn. That's 4.5 beakers per turn to squeeze out of my last 20 cities, plus whatever beaker per turn growth I get in the core. I think this is very possible, and if I can 4 turn Combustion at 5120 beakers, Flight at 5760 beakers can't be more than 5 turns. I'll still try to 4 turn it, just in case of some Big Picture catastrophe, but I'm feeling pretty good right now.
 
680AD....if accepted, another #1 Large Diplo. Would have been 670 AD but missed the Palace by one turn. Nationalism set me back 4 turns. So best case this run would have been 630AD.

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