Blackbetsy HOF Attempts

[Spoonwood]

Sandman starts to talk about changing laborers pre-production phase.

EMan and Superslug got to talking.

I don't see how it would be worthwhile to not accept or remove BlackBetsy's diplomatic entry above just because of lifting citizens off of tiles to make tax collectors.

 

[BlackBetsy]

I don't know. I end up thinking about lifting a citizen off of a tile who was unhappy, and then becoming a content specialist (specialists count towards score the same amount as content citizens working tiles)

In what I wrote, I talked about re-placing the tax men on the tiles after the trade was complete. So the sequence would be (again, this is hypothetical - I did not make a trade in my game) (1) break into the big picture at the beginning of the age; (2) go to the city pages and lift workers off of tiles and turn them into taxmen; (3) be presented with another "big picture" opportunity when you are forced to select the next tech to research; (4) trade using the increased gpt income from taxmen; (5) return taxmen to work tiles to complete production sequence by returning to city screen.

I believe that no score change would happen, nor would any tax benefit occur, and it would be the same as lifting and replacing citizens during a turn.

There is also the question of the game ending on a turn. So, in the example of a Diplo victory where a Palace pre-build is flipped to the UN, the turn ends before you can act - the UN is technically built in 680 but your winning save is 690 (which is what goes into the HOF, even though you won the turn earlier). I'm not sure there is *any* score effect at all - we would have to test that on a game with a save 1 turn before UN and one turn after.

Just a side note that of course in an early Diplo victory at lower levels, it is very likely to be the case that flipping citizens to tax men and keeping them as tax men through the inter-turn actually lowers scores, since it's likely that you've hooked up multiple luxes and you are changing happy citizens to taxmen (+2 to +1) in the areas where pulling a citizen off a tile generates more potential taxes from taxmen than regular commerce.

 

[Spoonwood]

I'm not sure there is *any* score effect at all - we would have to test that on a game with a save 1 turn before UN and one turn after.

I'm skeptical also for that case, since the total score calculation involves the score on each turn. Just a few extra unhappy citizens becoming content thus might not affect overall score at all, if it's done a small amount as you suggest.

Just a side note that of course in an early Diplo victory at lower levels, it is very likely to be the case that flipping citizens to tax men and keeping them as tax men through the inter-turn actually lowers scores, since it's likely that you've hooked up multiple luxes and you are changing happy citizens to taxmen (+2 to +1) in the areas where pulling a citizen off a tile generates more potential taxes from taxmen than regular commerce.

That can also hold for higher level if you have all the luxuries in use, significant use of the luxury slider, and maybe also corruption reducing buildings.

Also, I don't think a second "big picture" opportunity is possible in any case. But, I could have missed something, I suppose.

 

[BlackBetsy]

This conversation seemed familiar - I think we've had it before. There are a couple of differences; in your SS game the game was continuing where you made the changes to scientists (not taxmen) in the interturn. In both cases, the commerce phase had been complete so there was no double-benefit as if you had put on production tiles or switched to engineers or taxmen. And, in your case, the likely impact was a negative on the score.

 

[BlackBetsy]

Also, I don't think a second "big picture" opportunity is possible in any case. But, I could have missed something, I suppose.

Not sure what you mean here. If you use Big Picture to break into the advisor screens with the splash screen at the beginning of a new era (only time this works), and then go to the foreign advisor screen (or domestic advisor screen) without picking a new technology, once you X out and start the production sequence, you are going to get another chance to break in when you are forced to choose a new tech before the game starts the production sequence.

Now that I think about it, I do wonder if the second big picture break in is *only* possible if you are forced to pick a tech in the original break-in, and then you get that tech as a free tech. So it might be the case that I got a second Big Picture opportunity because I originally set my researched tech as Fission, then got it. Which would be a level of luck that I hadn't even thought about.

 

[Spoonwood]

Now that I think about it, I do wonder if the second big picture break in is *only* possible if you are forced to pick a tech in the original break-in, and then you get that tech as a free tech.

I'd guess that's the only case as you say.

 

[superslug]

The HOF rules can't possibly cover every situation in a game this complicated, and sometimes game clearance decisions get to be a real gray area.

I felt this submission was okay, and I stand by my decision.

 

[Spoonwood]

Congratulations BlackBetsy!

 

[BlackBetsy]

I just played out another game to 350 BC and I am going to abandon it. It's probably a mid 700's finish. I have to keep reminding myself not to keep playing if I don't get an SGL by Mysticism, since I played this out to a 4th tech before getting an SGL and building the Pyramids. I really thought I'd improve with tech speed because I had a really good Colossus city that I used the SGL to build the Pyramids with. I got a 2nd SGL and used it on Cope after I built Maus and triggered the Golden Age. But even with a Golden Age, the Colossus and Cope's, research on Banking was 8 turns.

Bad luck on the Big Picture when AI didn't get Feudalism.

Right now if I 4 turn the rest of the Medieval techs, I hit the Industrial Age in 310, which is 3 turns slower than the 680 game where I did the Industrial Age in 1 turn over the minimum.

 

[BlackBetsy]

Finally got a CB SGL....but never popped a settler and realized....I was on an island not on the Pangaea. Sigh.

 

[BlackBetsy]

Got a game with SGL on Mysticism and popped settler. Productive Colossus city with Maus driven early Medieval Golden Age has me emerging into the Industrial Age in 30 AD, which is 13 turns faster than my 690AD finish. I had average at best hut luck, as I had to research Currency and Construction, but I did have a 1900 BC revolution and hit the Medieval Age in 1400 BC, I think. The AI researched Iron Working for me, which was nice. With perfect hut luck, I think I could be maybe 8 turns ahead of where I am, with BC rails.

To get the #1 slot, I only need to beat my 690 game by 7 turns, so theoretically I'd have 6 turns to spare BUT...Industrial Age Big Picture is the worst for "bad" techs, as best case scenario you are 40-60 with Nationalism, Ironclads and Sanitation as bad draws vs. Electricity and Industrialization as good draws. I could theoretically survive a bad draw, but I am barely 4-turning research and only have about 40 cities and 3 luxes, which isn't good for creating a bunch of specialist farms. I'm trying to settle more cities now, but I think I'm going to need all of those buffer turns to get my research up. Practically, it's good luck on the Industrial Age Big Picture or another 2nd place finish.

I'm behind on cities because my map isn't great. The Greeks squeeze me into a neck of land I have to traverse to settle the territories beyond. If I had railroads going this would be less of a problem, but with roads this is a 10+ turn walk from my core.

 

[Spoonwood]

I have to keep reminding myself not to keep playing if I don't get an SGL by Mysticism, since I played this out to a 4th tech before getting an SGL and building the Pyramids.

Large Monarch 100k only has 5 entries at present. At present, the fastest finish date is 1270 AD by Svar. Large Monarch Histographic only has 6 entries at present. If you don't have an SGL by Mysticism, and then went after winning by 100k or histographic (even if not played to finish as soon as possible turn wise or to get as much score as the map allows), either would increase your total number of points and your number of games on this table. You currently rank 20th on that table, a little less than 900 points behind SpiffyKeen7744. You also stand less than 40,000 points beyond Chamnix, and killercane, both of whom do have impressive finishes on some tables.

 

[Bartleby]

What level & map size are you playing now?

edit: I guess large monarch...I had thought the 690 AD was a 1st place but I see it's 2nd.

 

[BlackBetsy]

What level & map size are you playing now?

edit: I guess large monarch...I had thought the 690 AD was a 1st place but I see it's 2nd.

Yes, Large Monarch. @bluejay has that 630AD game which is beatable only under the best conditions. I am currently on attempt 50, with deep play on only 4 games, including the previous one I submitted.

In my current game, the early SGL with Mysticism allowed me to have 16 cities by 1000 BC with a number of settlers walking, but the map effects were such that by the Industrial Age I only had 38 cities (also, a war with Korean made me make some military units instead of settlers). I hadn't considered how important the map effects are to these games, but most of the time there is adequate room to spread out in a couple of directions. This is the first map where I've felt pretty hemmed in.

I always consider flipping a decent Diplo game into a spaceship game.

I may skip Large Emperor Diplo and go right to Large Emperor 100k because of this table:

No offense to osi or Mad2rix, but those are very beatable dates so a #3 spot would be virtually assured, helping my Octathlon, but the real question is whether I could be @Svar's 1385 AD date and move up to #2.

I'm a much better player than the last true 100k effort I had with Large Chieftain Babylon (1180AD), and I don't believe I only played if I got an early SGL for the Pyramids. I'd only play with an early SGL at this point, and probably against the minimum number of opponents.

 

[BlackBetsy]

To get the #1 slot, I only need to beat my 690 game by 7 turns, so theoretically I'd have 6 turns to spare

Actually, I need to beat it by 8 turns, since @bluejay did 620AD. 7 turns is a tie.

 

[BlackBetsy]

The map got me. Having so few cities having been squeezed through a neck in the map by the Greeks and taking 10 turns to hook up coal just doesn't work.

Likely I'll play it out, but at Industrial Age I pulled Industrialization (good), but couldn't get the Corporation below 6 turns (very bad), Electricity below 7 turns (horrible), and Scientific Method below 5 turns (even worse). That's all of the 6 turns I could use up and still beat @bluejay, and you can see where it's going. Refining 6 turns, Steel 5 turns, they add up.

I think I might be able to turn in another 690 finish if I want to turn it in at all. Can only turn in 2 games per update / board, so I might just hold it and see if my next attempt is better.

Interesting that I could even approach 690 with so few cities. I think my hot start (20 cities by 900 BC) with the Mysticism SGL was good, plus the early Medieval Golden Age to boost that period and get libraries and universities built. But in my first 690 game, I finished with over 90 cities and still was struggling for 4 turning. I also had to pack my Cap and my Colossus/Cope/Newton city close, which wasn't optimal.

With a decent map that allowed me to settle 60-70 cities by the Industrial Age, I think I could have gotten a 500's finish here with the Mysticism SGL.

Note - I've gotten 1 CB SGL (when I was on an island), but I think the AI are just popping it too frequently.

 

[BlackBetsy]

I finished at 650 AD, just 4 turns short, very frustrating. I'm going to submit, since it's a better #2, and to get another submission in the HOF. If I am able to get a #1 before the next update, it will wash out the 690 AD game above.

Good news is that I handled the Big Picture pretty well - only the Byz had Fission but I traded pretty well to get the other 3 starting techs and getting my money back so I could pay her with Ecology, Rocketry, and Computers and only 300 gpt.

Back to the salt mines. I'm gonna get a 580 or earlier finish, I can feel it.

Edit: Here's the minimap. It's bad:

 

[BlackBetsy]

Just started a map with three river cows, popped a settler, then got an SGL with 3rd tech....only to find 1 lux within 25 settler moves and then the Byzantines finished the Colossus (not through an SGL - they didn't have any new techs). What in the world.

 

[BlackBetsy]

I DONT WANT MAPS OF YOUR REGION.

(I want you to join my Despotism)

 

[BlackBetsy]

Had a game with settler pop, SGL on 3rd tech, Republic around 1900 BC, good land with 4 luxes and had momentum but (1) lost out on Maus and therefore Medieval Age Golden Age; (2) Persia declared war on me and diverted production into a war effort. That was enough to put me very off the tech path.

It highlights the importance of the Medieval Golden Age. I've been using Maus to trigger and it seems like the best bet.