Blackbetsy HOF Attempts

[Spoonwood]

Not on my current, since I am not going for histographic, but when I do go for histographic, I will be taking that into account. Is there a threshold dom limit you like on Huge 60% water archipelago?

I think I had mine set for 4400 for my first Sid Huge game (the higher scoring one) that I submitted. Or maybe it was 4500? It had a domination limit of slightly about 4514. I didn't look for a high domination limit for the other one. Drazek's 90,000 game had a domination limit of 4598 it looks like. I remember some note around here somewhere that he said he ran Mapfinder for months for his first game.

Drazek's notes for his higher scoring game say:

Initially, I had MapFinder running for over 4550 domination limit. Unfortunately these maps are rare, and many are totally unplayable. For example, you can be alone on an island.

I lowered the limit to 4500 and there were much more maps. One had plenty of food and rivers at the starting location, and it was the best start I had found for these runs. Domination limit was 4555 so it was actually over my initial 4550.

You might want 4400 for your domination limit with starting conditions you like. Or even lower.

 

[BlackBetsy]

I remember some note around here somewhere that he said he ran Mapfinder for months for his first game.

Wow. With the speed settings I have (I could probably run MapFinder a tiny bit faster), I think I can run about 25,000 maps per day. I started a run yesterday afternoon, about 21 hours ago, for Huge maps with 2 grassland cows and 3 rivers. I'm at 20,000 maps searched but my son closed my laptop for an hour or two, so I'm a little bit behind the 24 hour pace. (Side note - I'm surprised that such maps are about 1 in 450, as I have 45 maps through 20,000 searched).

Drazek's statement would suggest that he'd gone through more than a million maps.

 

[Spoonwood]

Wow. With the speed settings I have (I could probably run MapFinder a tiny bit faster), I think I can run about 25,000 maps per day. I started a run yesterday afternoon, about 21 hours ago, for Huge maps with 2 grassland cows and 3 rivers. I'm at 20,000 maps searched but my son closed my laptop for an hour or two, so I'm a little bit behind the 24 hour pace. (Side note - I'm surprised that such maps are about 1 in 450, as I have 45 maps through 20,000 searched).

Drazek's statement would suggest that he'd gone through more than a million maps.

I kind of doubt that he had speed settings anything close to yours. But, for sure, I don't know.

 

[BlackBetsy]

5 grassland cows, 11 river tiles and no need to walk to settle. Probably is on an island off the pangaea, with no native lux.

 

[Spoonwood]

5 grassland cows, 7 river tiles and no need to walk to settle. Probably is on an island off the pangaea, with no native lux.


View attachment 710819

I'm not clear if this is the same difficulty and map size as before, or another one.

 

[BlackBetsy]

Well, the map I showed above was from a Huge Chieftain set of maps. I realized from the tables that the Huge Chieftain Diplo #1 was out of whack with the Huge Warlord and Regent maps, even though the research cost is the same. If anything, the ability to do deficit spending on Chieftain and the extra happiness (4 content citizens instead of 3) should make it a touch sooner. So I ran maps for a run at it.

As I predicted, it wasn't too hard. It took me only 2 deep runs to get a #1 spot, and I just finished up a 630 AD game, 4 turns faster than @nerovats #1 at 670 AD. Ancient Age tech at this level is a breeze, since you basically pop all of it even with modest hut luck. I didn't have particularly good luck in the game to do it; I got a late SGL with the Republic slingshot around 1650 BC. A turn or two later I popped Polytheism (the last AA tech, and I was researching it, but it still popped since it was the only AA tech left) By then I was already working hard on settling towns and wound up with 22 settlements by 1000 BC, which is pretty strong for me. I didn't have a good Colossus town, so I triggered my Golden Age late with Copernicus, coming after Maus and Statue of Zeus. It got all research down to 4 turns, and I headed into the Industrial Age with several turns left on the GA. Bad (average) luck in the IA Big Picture, pulling Nationalism instead of a required tech, which meant that I needed to do the 11 required techs (accounting for ToE) of the Industrial Age in 48 turns to get the #1 spot. Electricity was only 5 turns since Newton's completed right about when I hit the IA, and I was able to get 4 turns on Industrialization. I was worried about Rep Parts, but I got that down to 4 turns after a massive MM effort, and then did it again with Refining / Combustion. I even wrestled Flight down to 4 turns with some good railroad-induced growth. I even switched to taxmen in the final few turns to get capital for the Big Picture. Mild bad luck in the Big Picture in that Germany, which had all the non-required techs I had, got Fission, but I was able to trade for the other starting techs and got Fission from the Germans for tech only. Flipped the Palace to UN having declared war on Sumeria and getting MPPs or Alliances against Sumeria and won the vote 11-1.

If accepted, it means that I will have #1s in Chief through Monarch on Diplo. I could have, with a tiny better luck, gotten it done in the late 500's, and I think with a little bit of effort I could get the Regent Huge Diplo #1 as well. For now, I am going to survey the tables for other targets.

 

[Bartleby]

You've become quite the diplomat!

 

[Spoonwood]

Congratulations BlackBetsy!

 

[BlackBetsy]

You've become quite the diplomat!

I think only because Sir Pleb's strategy is so clear and effective and can be executed by a player as mediocre as me. Once you realize that you need the Pyramids as early as possible, pop a settler, and pop all the ancient age techs with scouts, it really plays itself. Golden Age during the Medieval Age with Maus after building Colossus. Keep building cities. Don't trade for Nationalism in the Big Picture. Micromanage your specialist farms every time you need to get an Industrial tech down to 4 turns, etc.

With all that said, playing a type of victory over and over and over does give you some focus.

When I look at the tables, I see games I really admire from @LordEmsworth, @Calis, @Tone, and @Spoonwood. I don't know that I've really pulled off a top game instead of just taking over where the table wasn't touched by one of them. Maybe, just maybe, my Large Monarch Diplo game is a pretty strong effort, although I probably was 4-5 turns off of my best effort.

I do know that all my best efforts have the 18 or more cities by 1000 BC. Funny how that works!

 

[BlackBetsy]

One thing that is of interest to me is the difference between the Russians and the Sumerians for Diplo victories. At difficulty levels of Monarch +, the hut popping by AI tends to overcome the benefit of Russian scouts at Standard or better map sizes. Probably by Deity, the Russians are not an advantage on any map other than Huge with the minimal number of opponents, and even then they might not be an advantage.

The question is how many turns does that advantage provide? I note that the #1 Small Regent Diplo is 490 AD with Sumeria. Standard Regent Diplo #1 is 500 AD with Russia - 1 turn different even though the tech is 20% more expensive. Large Regent diplo #1 is 680 AD, 18 turns later, 11% more turns than Standard with 33% higher tech costs. Huge Regent diplo #1 is 590 AD, 9 turns later than Standard with a whopping 67% higher tech costs.

My best guess is that Russian hut popping provides maybe a 30 turn advantage on Standard + maps at levels below Monarch. I would like to get a #1 Tiny and #1 Emperor, and I wonder if the 540 AD Calis date is even remotely possible. My best Tiny work was on Chieftain (490AD) where you can pop huts with Russia. But Emperor AI should be able to research enough tech to partially offset the Russian hut popping.

On any map, my best games always have the most cities by 1000 BC.

 

[BlackBetsy]

Cities. In my Huge Chieftain game, I had 70 cities by 30 AD. I am taking a run at another Huge #1, and I've got only 52 cities at 260 AD, and the difference is pretty big.

Similar date for SGL for the Pyramids, but I think I slacked off in generating cities in favor of libraries / universities, and I can only produce Industrialization in 6 turns / about 850 beakers per turn. At 100% science I could squeeze out 930 beakers per turn but that would still be short of 5 turns - Industrialization is 4800 beakers, so 4 turning it would be 1200 beakers per turn, which isn't possible even starving everyone down.

There are other things that have slowed this game down, but having roughly 80% more cities (89 cities at 360 AD in the #1 Huge Chief Diplo game), is the biggest thing.

70 cities by 10 AD is the new goal for every game.

 

[BlackBetsy]

One thing I've learned from playing Huge maps with the Russians. If there are no techs left for you to research in the Ancient Age OTHER than the tech you are researching, you CAN pop the tech you are researching. It just happened to me with Philosophy, 6 turns before it was going to complete. In this particular game, I only researched Ceremonial Burial and Mysticism, but trading for Alphabet from the Byz and, somehow, the Byz also researched Writing before me.

 

[Bartleby]

If you pop philosophy, you don't get the chance to trade before you get your free tech, right? Same as if you trade for the last tech?

 

[BlackBetsy]

If you pop philosophy, you don't get the chance to trade before you get your free tech, right? Same as if you trade for the last tech?

Right, when you pop a tech there is no chance to go to the Big Picture. If you pop Philosophy while researching Code of Laws, you just get Code of Laws.

If you pop Philosophy while researching Philosophy, because its your last available tech to research in the AA, you go to the Medieval Age Big Picture. Whatever you set as your next tech on the Science Advisor screen becomes your Philosophy free tech, and then it gives you an additional free tech. When I popped Philosophy as my last available (Republic is not available before Philosophy), I wound up trading for Mono, Feudalism and Engineering, and it gave me Theology as my Philo free tech since I always set for Education, and Invention as my Medieval Age free tech.

The problem with this (5 Medieval techs, wow!), is that the Republic is a very expensive tech to research in a despotism. So even though I had a huge head start on the Medieval Age, I abandoned the game since Republic would have taken 45 turns @ 100% science.

 

[BlackBetsy]

Oh good grief.

 

[tjs282]

I see 2 cows and a river, what are you complaining about?

 

[BlackBetsy]

Ran only 50 maps on Huge thinking it would be good enough. But through 22 maps, only 1 SGL in 1625 BC and game was too slow. Zero luck on CB SGL's (I assume because of hut pops by AI, they get CB), and frustrating no SGL's on Mysticism, which is where I really need it. Also, I forgot to include the Ottomans! So I am going to run Mapfinder for another 12 hours and pick up another 20 maps, this time with the Ottomans.

I am really pressing to get 6 cities by 2000 BC. In my best games I can squeeze out a 7th. Usually the cap runs as a 6 turn settler factory since I don't build a granary, but that's possibly a mistake. City 2 or 3 will be a Colossus build; usually city 3, while City 2 builds settlers, usually at a slower pace than the cap (maybe 8-10 turns). Cap build is scout/scout/scout/settlers, whereas other cities its usually 10 turns to grow, 2 shields per turn, so its warrior or scout, then worker, then settler.

Edit - some other thoughts. With hut popping you can actually hit the Medieval Ages before 2000 BC. You are pretty much on 30 turn + research for Medieval tech at that point with maybe 6 cities. As @SirPleb notes, the earlier you hit the Medieval Age, the worse off you are when it comes to research. It's 37 turns between 2030 BC and 1000 BC! So I don't know if there is much of an advantage being in the Medieval Age that early. I am perfectly fine with 1500 BC or even 1000 BC.

And one thing that is highly problematic on a Huge map is that you are VERY likely to not have met enough scientific civs to get more than 1 free Medieval Age tech, much less the 4 possible. And, typically, you are getting to the Medieval Age by researching Philosophy, which means you won't be able to trade for the Medieval tech very easily. I've found that Monarchy + Literature are necessary, and that you need to wait to pop Monarchy before hitting the Medieval Age with Philosophy.

Basically, your best luck in a situation where you haven't met enough Scientific AI is having one of them get Monotheism, trading for it, and getting Theology (33% chance), and then doing research on Education while you find the other Scientific AI, gift them to the Medieval Age, and pick up Engineering and Feudalism after the fact.

 

[BlackBetsy]

Very surprised I'm not doing better at this. In my current game, I had 23 cities @ 1000 BC with 5 more settlers walking! (28 cities). Somehow, I only had 43 cities in 190 BC with 5 settlers walking. I lost 1 city and 2 settlers to a sneak attack by the Greeks, but it shouldn't have been that big of a setback. The 1000BC - 190 BC period just didn't have enough settler building.

I only hit the Industrial Age in 190 AD, that is way later than I need to be - I need to be hitting it closer to 30 AD, 10 turns earlier.

I didn't pop a settler this game, but I had a CB SGL (!!!) so the Pyramids were built in 3150 BC and have been pumping out tourist revenue in addition to the free granaries. Got another very early SGL and rushed the Colossus. Not sure that is ever wise vs. hand building and waiting for Cope in that city.

Medieval Age Big Picture was a disaster because I had only met 2 Scientific AI, and they both got Feudalism. So I wound up having Mono as free tech and then back-trading with a newly met AI I gifted up to the Medieval Age as soon as I met. That cost me 7-10 turns.

Cities, again. I think on the level I am playing, I need to be taking more territory from the AI, especially grasslands. Once you can afford an army (somewhere in the Medieval Age), you should build a core force that can take a lot of territory by force. In the Modern Age, I spent a turn MM to see if I could maximize for the Laser and I bumped up science by 400 beakers per turn. It wasn't enough - I need 600 beakers per turn.

I'm going to finish this Huge Regent Spaceship game @1120 AD or @1130 AD, which is only a second place. The Medieval Age Big Picture and not enough cities did me in. I had some 7 turn research in the Modern Age, and never did get anything to 4 turns in the Modern Age. In the Industrial Age, I really only 4 turns the Corporation and Scientific Method.

I am 27 / 70 maps. I really thought the 1120 AD by @sanabas was gettable with ease. I was pretty wrong.

 

[BlackBetsy]

Hold the phone. Starvation for 4-8 turns might just get us there:

345 specialists out of a population of 862.

Update - I think we are going be able to starve the people to get there:

 

[Bartleby]

It feels a bit odd to "like" a post about mass starvation, but sacrifices have to be made.