Blackbetsy HOF Attempts

[BlackBetsy]

Well, the spaceship launched in 1100 AD, putting me 2 turns ahead of @sanabas 1120 AD launch and giving me a #1 on Huge / Regent / Spaceship if accepted. And while, yes, I took people off the farms and put them in science labs, no citizens died from starvation - all cities had enough food stored to survive this 8 turn period.

It's definitely the case that this game has taught me (or re-taught) me the lessons around growth in city numbers. I still cannot, for some reason, bring myself to create the worker factories I need. It never seems to be top of mind.

Anyhow, I need to start gearing up for a milk run.

 

[Bartleby]

Congrats on another #1!

 

[BlackBetsy]

A few more points on this game:

Modern Age Big Picture was sub-optimal. No one got Computers or Fission even though there were 6 Scientific AI. So instead of having 7 free techs in the Modern Age having timed ToE for the Big Picture, I only got 5. I traded for Rocketry, then pulled Fission, used ToE for Computers and Miniaturization, and then back-traded for Ecology. Combined with the bad luck @ the Medieval big picture (only 2 scientific AI known), I actually think that I could have pulled off a pre-1000 AD launch. I may even use the remaining 43 starts I have to try.

In addition, I let up the gas on city building after 1000 BC (I think I was too happy about the 23 cities and thought I would get to 70 cities by 10 AD without working too hard on settlers).

I wasn't serious about wars, but I could have grabbed some really good science farm territory from the Dutch and English a lot earlier with a 10-15 MI / 8 Treb army that I could have supported. Cash really builds up with 50 gold goody huts after the Ancient Age. But war weariness is a real problem, and I was a little taken aback at how much the Regent AI would throw back at me militarily, and I usually went for peace with a town or two as booty as soon as any war weariness kicked in. I wound up with 151 cities, with 107 settled by me and 44 captured cities. I think an optimal game would be more like 120 settled cities (with 70 settled by 1 AD) and then 60 captured cities. Capturing more earlier will reduce the number overall since the AI won't have the room to settle.

I had a very good use of a grassland with ICS to create 6 pop science farms in a corrupted area. Really made me think about how these can be optimized. You only need 3 irrigated grasslands to generate 10 beakers per turn out of a city and with the Pyramids you are growing them fast. This is 100 beakers per turn from 30 tiles. In starvation times - which you can safely run for about 8 turns, I've learned, that can be dialed up to 130 beakers per turn from 10 cities. I had something like 46 6 pop cities running -2 food starvation and 13 beakers per turn. That was 600 beakers per turn! 140 beakers from starvation - so a 30% boost you can do for a quasi scientific golden age.

Again, no worker factories and worker count was awful. In 1020 AD, before I started joining workers to cities, I only had 56 native workers and 33 slaves. That is just bad against 145 cities and honestly it's the worst part of my game. I absolutely need to have some sort of mechanism that forces me to build more workers.

I don't think the 1100 AD is that close to optimal. A really good player with a CB SGL focused on the SS victory could beat 900 AD for sure (note @Spoonwood beat 900 on his Huge Warlord SS game with the Russians), and I'm not sure that 800 AD couldn't be beaten with a fantastic map and perfect luck.

 

[Spoonwood]

I absolutely need to have some sort of mechanism that forces me to build more workers.

Use some of the science farms.

 

[Spoonwood]

It feels a bit odd to "like" a post about mass starvation, but sacrifices have to be made.

Play more histographic and you will hate starvation.

 

[BlackBetsy]

Use some of the science farms.

I mean early game, like late Ancient Age and early Medieval. Maybe I just need to declare City 008 a worker factory (siting it correctly of course). And then city 024 and city 040 (n+16) or something like that.

 

[BlackBetsy]

Probably a desire to avoid a milk run, but I'm playing out the 70 maps I have on Huge Regent to see if I can do 10+ turns better with a spaceship launch. I have a nagging belief that its possible with better circumstances.

I had a late SGL (1600) and I just couldn't get enough science going on a decent map. Industrial Age was going to be something like 300 AD, which just doesn't work. Industrial Age needs to be 90 AD or sooner on a Huge map.

I really think a pre-2000 BC (1st or 2nd tech, sometimes HBR for 3rd tech) Pyramids are necessary for a #1 science game on a competitive table. The #1 game above was a CB game and I'm finding that either a CB or Mysticism SGL is necessary for the best results. It's the production of settlers from your 2, 3rd, 4th cities that get you up to the right city count to be able to research in the Medieval Age.

My start is scout-scout-scout-settler-warrior (for spacing), which generates a settler around 3000 BC. I often pop a city/settler only after the 3rd scout is out, but I am now thinking that generating a settler after the 2nd scout (if I've popped a city) is the right play, since I generally wouldn't go to size 4 and have happiness issues @Regent. I often generate scouts in 2nd/3rd/4th city because it is typically 10 turns for growth and 5 turns to build a worker, so I'd go scout/worker.

 

[Spoonwood]

The #1 game above was a CB game and I'm finding that either a CB or Mysticism SGL is necessary for the best results.

A less used alternative, but I've definitely done it before for at least a 20k game a while back lies in taking out/not selecting all industrious tribes. And then research Masonry. It could even end up a bit faster build on The Pyramids than a CB SGL. Though getting research from AIs could possibly then become more difficult. Since huts tend/always yield the least expensive technology, it also resolves the issue with not getting a free tech, because the AI popped CB from a hut. Even with some free units, I think the order from huts is something like CB and Pottery, then Warrior Code and Bronze Working. Do The Wheel and Masonry cost the same initially? It looks like they do from civ assist II! Mysticism goes the same as those two, but The Wheel also yields extra commerce. The AIs end up more likely to reasearch The Wheel than Masonry according to Alexman's original research.

Also, I guess end up thinking this way, because I've played as Spain lately, and though I've gotten a Pottery SGL, finding someone with Masonry early on a large 60% archipelago Warlord map takes some time (for histographic). Also, today I lost an SGL looking for someone with Masonry, when Greece popped barbarians right next to the SGL. Hitting that 1000 year period for extra tourist commerce a bit earlier than having to scout for someone with Masonry also might enable faster research later. Additionally, I tried playing with raging barbarians once (surprisingly they can work out well for getting gold from AIs), and with a barbarian presence, I highly doubt than an SGL scouting for a contact with Masonry will work.

I may as well mention that @EMan also got an SGL on Alphabet in at least his Huge Emperor histographic game, if not elsewhere. Though, anything your people research, they can't po from a hut, so probably doesn't make as much sense for a fast science game.

If it's anyone but Babylon, founding a city could pop Pottery or Ceremoinal Burial, and they won't have their first unit scout until they have at least one defender in their city. I think it's two units? Though, their cultural pop a hut in 10 turns also. If it's Babylon, they probably research Warrior Code first, and thus could get Mysticism, Masonry, or The Wheel from a hut.

 

[Spoonwood]

Probably a desire to avoid a milk run, but I'm playing out the 70 maps I have on Huge Regent to see if I can do 10+ turns better with a spaceship launch.

Looking in Debug mode it seems that all the AIs went with a warrior then a settler for their first two builds on Regent. So, that gives them the possibility of popping a hut by founding their capital and a cultural expansion. I believe that Fat X has at most one hut always? The minimum amount of time for a settler I believe is at least 10 turns if they have a grassland cow and are agricultural. But, it's probably higher due to the 30 shield cost. Then the settler has to travel for 3-5 turns before founding another city.

 

[BlackBetsy]

I so thoroughly screwed this game up I am in disbelief.

Not only did I get the Mysticism SGL, the very, very rare occurrence of popping a settler + a city on the same turn. I now think it's possible if you pop 2 huts on the same turn - the game calculates your luck based on what you are building or have at the BEGINNING of the turn, rather than after you've popped one or the other hut. So I had 4 cities at 3000 BC!!

It was all going decently well until I did my normal research of Philosophy while I waited to pop CoL. On a Huge map, this happens essentially 100% of the time. If you don't pop it, you can pause Philo for a turn or two and then pop CoL.

But no techs from huts after something like 30 turns. I used up the 1900-1200 period waiting to pop CoL! Eventually I realized I was far behind and research Philo with Construction as free tech. Republic was a very short 18 turns but by then it was 1200 BC and with essentially no more hut luck (popped Literature, that's all).

Ive played this so much that popping COL had been so reliable that I didn't even consider researching CoL and then Philo. But the map had my on a large peninsula cut off from the rest of the pangaea by thick jungle at the neck. (see minimap). Most of my scouts were in the SW exploring, so by the time I got them into the Pangaea, the AI had been popping huts. This was catastrophic. This whole game strategy is predicated on popping your way through the Ancient Age.

With the 4 city 3000 BC start and the Pyramids SGL, I had a good feeling that I could get a 900-950 AD launch. I eventually had 25 cities by 1000 BC, a record for me, with another 3 settlers walking. I had an early hand built Colossus as well and the Ottomans were going to build some nice cities I could take over in a short war.

Damnit.

 

[Bartleby]

I think that only popping a settler has the prerequisite that you don't have/aren't building a settler (and don't have more than the average number of cities). It's always possible to pop a city. But definitely very lucky to do both in the same turn.

 

[BlackBetsy]

I think that only popping a settler has the prerequisite that you don't have/aren't building a settler (and don't have more than the average number of cities). It's always possible to pop a city. But definitely very lucky to do both in the same turn.

That's interesting. I do know you can't pop if you have more than the average number of cities. So I guess if you pop a settler, you still have the average number of cities (1). But you can never pop a city first and then a settler.

I do believe that there is something about *not* having a settler live at the beginning of a turn. As others have noted, you never get a 4000 BC settler from a hut popped by settling a city. So if there is a hut near my capital, I wait until 3950 to pop, or, if I walk 1 turn, I wait until 3900 to pop.

 

[BlackBetsy]

To say I'm struggling just defeating an AI opponent on Demigod is an understatement. I cannot apparently run a war well.

But I note that on my Deity game, I was playing on 70% Pangaea, and I got 32k points. I didn't finish conquest until the late 1400's. Maybe I'm not giving myself enough credit and should focus more on getting to Military Tradition and Steam Power to crush AI quickly. I did win the Deity Histo game with Modern Armor. I forget that being the biggest civ has its own advantages.....

 

[BlackBetsy]

My Histo Demigod game is going very slow, since conquest is now running into the 1300's and I don't know if I will come close to my 40k goal. 8 luxes have been acquired (1 natural, 1 by force, 6 by trade) so my population is very happy. I only have 23% of the territory, although it's in realty more like 30% since I need to fill in the gaps created by my conquest of the Koreans and Spanish. I have 10+ Cavalry Armies at this point, all the gold in the world through trade (the Iroquois built up almost 40k gold that they then provided to me). Replaceable Parts gave me longer distance artillery, so conquest should move apace now. One turn left on Spain, and then France and its spearmen on its 8-city should be a war I can do in parallel with my invasion of China and Germany.

I have to eliminate or severely reduce the Iroquois to keep them from a cultural victory, and that would be all I need for the Dom limit. But I'll probably wipe out the other civs so I can maximize population in the right terrain.

 

[BlackBetsy]

Tragedy.

I was bombarding a Chinese city when the game froze. Annoying, but it happens with a lot of units / cities in Huge maps for me. I closed the game, reloaded, and accidentally toggled to Quick Start. A new game started, and the AutoSaves had been wiped out. My last save was more than 60 turns ago. I don't know if it was a great game, but I'm going to have to start over unless someone knows how to find an AutoSave from a previous game after you start a new game.

 

[BlackBetsy]

Also, I was in 1415 AD and I had only conquered about 30% of the territory. I had a relatively easy fight with the Germans in front of me (they were weak to me and had about 20% of their infantry in a stack I could destroy in the first turn of the war) and then a very difficult fight with the Iroquois, to get to 66%. By the time I had 8 luxes, the game was going to be won, but the early Republic period of unhappiness was difficult to manage.

It looks like I am going to have to start over, and I think the most important thing is to get the conquest going earlier. I note the goal stated on the Histo thread of getting conquest done by 1200 AD and I have to be a little more serious about that - cities acquired through conquest are just as good as cities founded by settlers. Assuming reuse of military units on conquest, they may be cheaper in terms of shields anyway.

Or, in the alternative, going flat out on research to Military Tradition, Steam Power, and Replaceable Parts does make some sense *provided that you generate an army and can build the Military Academy*.

I'm still considering Monarchy for the war weariness prevention, the lack of unit support costs, and the availability of military police. Once you get to Navigation and can trade for luxes, I think Republic becomes more dominant.

 

[BlackBetsy]

I'm in relatively deep on a second attempt (attempt #20...or HgDGHisto120 in my nomenclature), and I've got a map that is better in some respects and worse in others. At 600 AD, we only have 12% of the map, but I have 7 luxes (2 native, 1 conquered) and a tech lead after the road pillage trick got us to parity. We just hit Military Tradition, but don't have a Military Academy yet (can't seem to buy another leader) as I wait for a hand-build.

Map is bad inasmuch as natural territorial expansion in my northwest is hampered by massive marshes / jungle, which will take armies of workers to fix. Good inasmuch as I've got a couple of narrow choke points vs. my continental rivals, plus the nearest continents with 2 large civs each is a very short galleon ride away from my core when I need to start those wars. Two civs are on small islands I'll likely never have to touch as they are hopelessly behind.

When the Spanish get the Conquistadors, they are a real problem. You just can't see them coming and have to defend everywhere. They are my first choice for conquest since they are neighbors, and if I couldn't get the Chinese into a war with them, I'd be struggling on 2 fronts (the Chinese cut off the western front from new troops). Once rails are up (we are 3 techs away) I think I can get this thing going fast.

 

[BlackBetsy]

One thing I did better this game was become more aggressive in terms of getting luxuries / resources as soon as they showed up as tradeable. The Chinese didn't have any luxes, but they did have an extra saltpeter, so in lieu of hooking up saltpeter, I caught up in tech and got all of China's gold.

When I noticed the Ancient Age Greeks (4 cities on a small island) had 6 extra incense, I gifted them MapMaking and Monarchy to create their ability to trade, and then gave them some cash so that they could build a harbor. I checked maybe 10 turns later and Sparta was 1 turn away from a Harbor! I then snagged one of the available Incense as my 7th lux.

 

[Spoonwood]

When I noticed the Ancient Age Greeks (4 cities on a small island) had 6 extra incense, I gifted them MapMaking and Monarchy to create their ability to trade, and then gave them some cash so that they could build a harbor.

Does the AI cash-rush buildings? I don't think I've ever see anything that implies that they do.

However, for sure gifting them Map Making helped. Monarchy could have also given that city an extra shield from reduced corruption, or could have made irrigation usable so that it grew faster and they got another shield per turn in more quickly.

For sure, I have gifted AIs techs (even on Sid) many, many times so that they build infrastructure more quickly.

 

[BlackBetsy]

Does the AI cash-rush buildings? I don't think I've ever see anything that implies that they do.

I was doubtful that they would cash rush, but I figured that if they had more cash, maybe they'd think they could run a deficit on maintenance and still build improvements? They were stuck in despotism with only 4 cities and had enough troops to possibly make them pay unit costs. They sure as heck weren't researching.