Blackhawk Down

[joespaniel]

I read the book about a year ago, and found it to be fairly accurate and well written.

I hear the movie is astoundingly good from people who have already seen it.

For those of you who dont already know, I served with the US Army's 10th Mountain Division in Somolia at the time this battle happened. My rifle company, A 2/14, rescued the Ranger Company and Delta team trapped in Mogadishu.

So, as you can imagine it holds alot of interest for me. And some sad feelings as well.

I plan to see the movie as soon as I have the time, but if anyone has any comments about it or sees it first, please post and share your thoughts and opinions.

-joespaniel

 

[knowltok3]

Just finished the book myself and loved it. I am looking forward to the movie. Reading through the book I caught a current of disdain running downhill from the D-boys to the Rangers to the 10th Mountain. Is this accurate, or have I misread, or is the book overplaying this?

 

[dannyevilcat]

I haven't read the book, unfortunately, but I have read a rather comprehensive Philadelphia Inquirer editorial series on what happened.
This is a movie I want to see at the earliest opportunity.

 

[knowltok3]

Correct me if I am wrong anyone (Like I need to prompt this group) but I believe that the articles you read are by the author of the book. So you have the same basic feel. I haven't read the articles, but I'd still recomend the book to anyone. Even if war books aren't their thing, this is a true story about contemporary events. Action similar to it could easily happen again in the near future in some other corner of the globe.

 

[Gruntboy]

I thought the disdain ran up?! The D-boys come off all glib and flashy and not behaving in a professional manner?

 

[knowltok3]

Originally posted by Gruntboy
I thought the disdain ran up?! The D-boys come off all glib and flashy and not behaving in a professional manner?

Now that you mention it, it seemed to do that too. Except I don't think it was disdain. The Rangers started mimicing the D-boys which led to some breaks in their discipline. The Ranger officers weren't happy because they were being upstaged by the D-boys. They didn't follow normal military discipline and on some occasions made the officers look bad in front of their men.

On the reverse, the D-boys had disdain for the Hu-ahh discipline of the Rangers. It seems kind of amazing that no one seems to have realized that both systems were valid since the were different troops, but that they just didn't mix.

 

[damunzy]

Having been a Sergeant in the U.S. Army and being stationed at Ft. Bragg NC, I have seen the effect of Privates (lowest rank in the Army) to Specialists (highest rank before being considered a NonCommisioned Officer-NCO) working along side with the Special Forces soldiers (the lowest rank of which is a Sergeant, those being rare, most being at least Staff Sergeant, and most of the ones I have worked with being Sergeant First Class or higher). The effect I have seen is the slackening of discipline which led to a lot of disrepect problems between the lower enlisted soliders and NCOs. This didn't happen with all troops but it was a high percentage. The unit I was in, 112th Signal Battalion (Airborne)(Special Operations), is the only Signal Battalion in the US Army devoted entirely to Special Operations missions (Rangers, Special Forces, Seals, Delta, etc.) so we had extensive contact with the "less disciplined" aspect of the Army (Special Forces, Seals, Delta). When I say less disciplined I mean by the Army's concept of discipline. They have their own version of discipline because they are all deemed to be responsible (which is shown to not be the case sometimes but overall is true) while the rest of the Army needs a little more hand holding, in your face type of attention. The 112th struck a balance between the Ranger Hooah and SF laid back attitude and did a pretty good job of it IMHO, since nothing will ever be 100% in the Army.

US Army Enlisted: Pay Grade - Rank Abbrv - Rank
E-1 - PVT - Private
E-2 - PV2 - Private
E-3 - PFC - Private First Class
E-4 - SPC/CPL - Specialist / Corporal
E-5 - SGT - Sergeant
E-6 - SSG - Staff Sergeant
E-7 - SFC - Sergeant First Class
E-8 - MSG/1SG - Master Sergeant / First Sergeant
E-9 - SGM/CSM - Sergeants Major / Command Sergeants Major

The difference between a SPC and CPL is the Corporal is considered a NonCommisioned Officer, just like a Sergeant. It is a bastard rank that I have seen abused by being given to soldiers that are highly unqualified, but such is life. The difference between the ranks MSG and 1SG and also SGM and CSM is that the ones that come before the "/" normally don't command the same amount of troops. A 1SG will command a Company and a CSM will command a Battalion or higher level orgination. They don't technically command, that is the officer's job, but they are the ones that will make the units run smooth and the officer is there to sign stuff and make meetings (I know the officers have important jobs, it is just the NCO in me that makes me abbrv it like this ).

As to the subject at hand. I can't wait to see the movie as I have only heard good things about it (critics) and loved the commercials. I was thinking about driving up to NYC to see it (about 2 or so hours drive) but decided against it out of difficulties for my wife to make the trip right now.

 

[.:KNAS:.]

book is called blackhawk down? whos the author?

 

[knowltok3]

Thanks for the insight Palehorse. That is certainly the take I got from the book. I think the movie has the chance to be extremely powerful because it is a true story (not even based upon) and it is so recent. It is also the type of conflict that we could theoretically be in tomorrow (hopefully with more support). This distinguishes it from most other war movies since even though they may be true stories and very realistic, there is only so much that WWII or Vietnam can truely hit home considering that conflicts of those types are much less likely in the near future than the one in Somalia. I hope the movie can live up to its potential in this.

 

[joespaniel]

To answer the floating question, yes, there was some rivalry between the 10th Mountain and the "special" troops, as they viewed us as "inferior" due to their elite training. Nothing serious like fist-fights mind you, but open disdain.

However, after the first blackhawk was shot down on Sept 29th, and the crew was rescued by friendly Somolis and the 10th Mountain, the Rangers and Delta treated us a little better. One of our sargeants lost a hand and foot fighting back the hostile Somolis trying to get the helo crew. Others were wounded also.

During the battle of 3-4 October, all division between different units more or less disapated. All units were American then, in a sea of hostile well armed militia that outnumbered us greatly. There was still conflict about strategy and what-not, but everyone pulled together to survive that night.

Later in October, the Rangers went home. One night, while still in Somolia, I watched Larry King Live and saw some of the Rangers on the show. The first thing they said was thanks to the 10th Mountain for coming to get them. It was gratifying to hear after much media critisism of the operation.

Youre welcome. We would have done it again too.

The Movie

I saw Blackhawk Down last night, and was astounded!

The story focuses on the Rangers and Delta, as it should. There is little mention of the QRF (10th Mountain) nor our role in the battle, except at the end. You cant fit everything into a story unfortunately..

One thing that struck me was that real names were used, I met and knew many of the people. The main details were very acurate and the scenes realistic, it was a very powerfull film.

Little details were lost, ofcourse, as with any retelling of a story. But it was amazingly close, I wouldnt change it one bit.

I highly recomend it to everyone, not just people interested in the military. It is a story about real people, and a real event. Though violent and at times sad, it is a testiment to the courage of a bunch of young Americans who prevailed against unbelievable odds, and triumphed.

Go see it!

Right of the Line!

 

[PinkyGen]

Very good movie, visually impressive, and you also get a good sense of the events that happened that day. It was interesting to see how hard they tried to leave no one behind, and how difficult it was running that kind of mission (with no heavy support).

 

[t92300]

hi guys this sounds like a bookthat I might like to read could some one tell me a little about it as well as authors name etc

thanks
t92300

 

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by joespaniel
One thing that struck me was that real names were used, I met and knew many of the people.

That is true in all cases except in the case of one person which the Pentagon asked to be changed in the movie. I forget his name but one of the people involved in the battle is currently residing in a military prison and the Pentagon wanted his name left out of the film.

 

[joespaniel]

The book is called "Blackhawk Down", but I forget the author's name. I loaned my copy out. Sorry!

Im sure its in every bookstore right now.

Another good read about the US troops in Somolia is the book "Mogadishu", by Kent DeLong and Steven Tuckey. Try that one too, it came out a few years ago, and is also pretty accurate. Ross Perot wrote the forward, though I have no clue why.

 

[BlueMonday]

Originally posted by joespaniel
The book is called "Blackhawk Down", but I forget the author's name.

Mark Bowden

 

[gjts00]

I served in C Company, 3rd Battalion, 75th Ranger Regiment from 91 to 94. The only company in the battalion that was not deployed to Somalia. It was an extremely frustrating time for the whole company, especially when we got the news about Oct 3rd. We were stuck at Benning, pulling guard duty at the compound to keep reporters out, while our borthers in arms were fighting and dying in the scum ridden slums of Somalia.


As a result of being in the same unit, I naturaly got numerous firsthand accounts of what really happened. There were some predictable, surprising, shocking, disgusting, & cowardly events taking place on both sides of the conflict.



I don't want to see the movie. And the reason being is that the real military and the Hollywood military are very far removed from eachother. Hollywood is in the business of dramatizing & making stories more palatable for the masses, even at the expence of the facts. And I know that it would just p1ss me off. I got the straight dope from some of the brave individual volunteers that were there, and that's good enough for me.

 

[damunzy]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
That is true in all cases except in the case of one person which the Pentagon asked to be changed in the movie. I forget his name but one of the people involved in the battle is currently residing in a military prison and the Pentagon wanted his name left out of the film.

Hey DinoDoc could you do some research or try hard to remember which character is the false one? Also, is he in an American prison for illegal activity, is he a POW (Prisoner of War, now called PWs for some damn reason they changed POWs to Personally Owned Weapons, disrespectful of our POW/MIAs IMHO) or is he held in a foreign prison for illegal activity? Thanks, this really interests me. I can only see he being a POW as a reason for withholding his name, but I am not sure by the text of your post.

 

[knowltok3]

I can't remember his name, but he is in jail for child molesting I think.


gjts00: On the point of real military and hollywood military, aren't some movies getting closer? Perhaps not in all aspects, but I have heard several veterans who were at Omaha say that Saving Private Ryan got that part pretty much right. I have heard that Blackhawk down comes very close to the mark. Of course I comepletely respect your decision not to watch it, I'm just curious on your view of Hollywood's progress.

 

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by PaleHorse76
Hey DinoDoc could you do some research or try hard to remember which character is the false one?

Company Clerk John Grimes is the name of the false character. His real name was John Stebbins.

Also, is he in an American prison for illegal activity, is he a POW (Prisoner of War, now called PWs for some damn reason they changed POWs to Personally Owned Weapons, disrespectful of our POW/MIAs IMHO) or is he held in a foreign prison for illegal activity?

He is serving a 30-year sentence in Fort Leavenworth military prison for raping a 12-year-old girl.

 

[Franklyn]

BHD author Mark Bowden also wrote "Killing Pablo" about Colombian drug cartel leader Pablo Escobar. The Philadelphia Inquirer web site has his newspaper report (the basis for the book) online.

Btw, did anyone catch the entire History Channel piece last night on BHD? I saw about 45 minutes before a buddy called. I was intrigued by what I saw -- I thought it did a good job of summing up the tactical and strategic issues, as well as the political and diplomatic issues that led to the event. The book's authors and a lot of rangers and other ground-level troops were interviewed.

It's on again Sat. nite at 8 p.m.