Blackwater looks to expand domestic role...

[Bugfatty300]

But why is the answer to hire private security companies, rather than expanding the National Guard?

After all, Guardsmen are much cheaper.

In some cases its appropriate to hire PMCs and others its not. In a disaster area like New Orleans, with the police are over stretched to the point of breakdown then private security forces can help in security matters. They don't need to assume police and military powers to provide security.

I believe that since private security companies are much smaller and they tend to be much more efficient than huge government bureaucracies like the DoT. Even though Guardsmen are paid much, much lower than PMCs individually the cost of hiring PMCs would be much cheaper than deploying troops.

 

[eyrei]

In some cases its appropriate to hire PMCs and others its not. In a disaster area like New Orleans, with the police are over stretched to the point of breakdown then private security forces can help in security matters. They don't need to assume police and military powers to provide security.

I believe that since private security companies are much smaller and they tend to be much more efficient than huge government bureaucracies like the DoT. Even though Guardsmen are paid much, much lower than PMCs individually the cost of hiring PMCs would be much cheaper than deploying troops.

The National Guard actually has the trust of the majority of the population, whereas we have little reason to trust mercenaries.

 

[Little Raven]

Shouldn't you need to prove that it does not? Requiring me to prove the status quo is rediculous.

I'm not asking you to defend the status quo. As far as I know, deploying large numbers of private security forces in the wake of a disaster is not the status quo in this country. It's been done once, and it wasn't exactly an unqualified success.

Are you arguing that the government does things cheaper than the private market? Because that is obviously not true.

Sometimes. It all depends on the service. The free market does not perform optimally in all situations. I humbly submit that large-scale security is one of those.

Shall we ask the Iraqis?

 

[Ecofarm]

The National Guard actually has the trust of the majority of the population, whereas we have little reason to trust mercenaries.

I'd trust an ex-SF member of Blackwater to save my butt alot more than I would trust some yahoo in the national guard. Nonetheless, your point is valid in general.

The government representatives would have to be trusted to make an informed decision for us. Something they prove to be incapable of doing everyday, but hey... what can ya do?

The guard are good at playing spades and carrying heavy objects, but if you want a sniper that will not fall asleep on guard duty... my money is on Blackwater. The training of the average guardsman is not 1/10th the training of a Blackwater employee (or even an active basic infantryman). Unfortunately, I can't afford Blackwater, so I guess I'll just watch my own butt and play some spades with the guardsmen.

 

[Kozmos]

I really dont see a lack of business for PMCs. Conflict will breed conflict, new hatreds will arise. Wars will pop up like mushrooms after the rain.

 

[Little Raven]

In some cases its appropriate to hire PMCs and others its not. In a disaster area like New Orleans, with the police are over stretched to the point of breakdown then private security forces can help in security matters.

Obviously. But so can the National Guard. In fact, that's why we created the National Guard...for situations in which local authorities are overwhelmed.

If we're really going to outsource that service to private security companies, why do we need the Guard? Or do you believe we don't?

 

[Bugfatty300]

In fact, that's why we created the National Guard...for situations in which local authorities are overwhelmed.

Then why are they in Iraq instead of patrolling the border?

 

[Elrohir]

I understand why people feel uneasy about having a highly trained, well armed private force in use in the US.

But even so, I think you guys are slightly off base. For one thing, who says they don't have to pay attention to US state or federal law? Can you cite a single instance of where a blackwater employee broke the law and were not prosecuted? (In America, please.) Can you cite a single instance where the police investigated a Blackwater employee, and then Blackwater wouldn't cooperate or produce the person in question? I get the feeling that you're all afraid that they're going to start just doing whatever they feel like. I doubt that will happen, because if they started physically resisting the cops, they would get shut down pretty fast.

What do you propose we do about it, anyway? Say no private security companies? Who'll protect companies and buildings then? Or are we just going to target this one company, and let the rest fly under the radar? I haven't heard a practical solution to this "problem" yet.

 

[Ecofarm]

Then why are they in Iraq instead of patrolling the border?

The two are not mutually exclusive. They are patrolling the border, anyway. Of course, there should be more and they should be given police powers, but those are political matters.

 

[Little Raven]

Then why are they in Iraq instead of patrolling the border?

Because the same people that are pushing to expand the role of private security forces everywhere put them there.

State governors aren't too happy about it, actually.

 

[Ecofarm]

What do you propose we do about it, anyway? Say no private security companies? Who'll protect companies and buildings then? Or are we just going to target this one company, and let the rest fly under the radar? I haven't heard a practical solution to this "problem" yet.

Disaster relief specifically, not the jobs done already.

 

[Little Raven]

I get the feeling that you're all afraid that they're going to start just doing whatever they feel like.

I'm afraid that there aren't sufficient mechanisms in place to mitigate the potential for abuse, particularly if they are being deployed in a disaster zone.

What do you propose we do about it, anyway? Say no private security companies?

Of course not. I don't have an issue with private security companies in general. I have an issue with using them to replace the National Guard to provide wide-level security in the wake of a disaster. It's perfectly reasonable to have a private security company guarding a private estate. It's much more questionable to use them for general law-enforcement purposes.

Don't you agree that private and public security operations are best kept separate?

 

[Elrohir]

Disaster relief specifically, not the jobs done already.

So what, you say "no private security companies can operate in a disaster area"? What if there happens to be a mall in the area with a private security company? Do they have to go home and leave the mall to the looters, or face federal charges?

I don't think you guys are thinking this through all the way; you're just reacting.

 

[Ecofarm]

Because the same people that are pushing to expand the role of private security forces everywhere put them there.

State governors aren't too happy about it, actually.

I think the governor is being political.

''The combination of the 50 percent rule and the cross-state access arrangement should mean that unless you have an astronomically bad catastrophe, you should be in pretty good shape," O'Hanlon said.

Your citation.



Anyway, about Blackwater replacing the national guard:

I think the idea of employing Blackwater is not to replace the national guard. Blackwater represents highly-trained full-time professionals that serve in roles seperate from the average guard yahoo. The national guard do not expand the capacity of a swat team, blackwater does. Blackwater is not going to be walking down the streets making sure noone loots, or handing out water. They are not going to be boarding up the windows of your house, or clearing the streets of debris. They would be working with the swat team, which probably less than 1% of national guardsmen are qualified to do. They would also be working with emergency rescue teams, as an SF medic (MOS = 13D) can perform surgery if necessary (a national guardsman cannot, even if he is a "combat medic" or even a medic MOS).

 

[Little Raven]

Blackwater represents highly-trained full-time professionals that serve in roles seperate from the average guard yahoo.

Good point. I suppose your average guard yahoo is not qualified to 'stand close by FEMA employees,' 'fish people out of the water,' and 'walk people to their cars.' Those are highly specialized jobs that obviously require someone making a thousand dollars a day.

 

[Ecofarm]

Those are not the jobs Blackwater would be hired to do. Well, not as you describe it. Katrina was exceptionally mis-handled by the local, state, and federal government. To use it as an example of what to expect is rather bleak.

Obviously, paying people even hundreds of dollars per day to walk people to and from their cars is rather rediculous. Noone can abide that.

Not all national guard units have helicopters to fish people out of the water with, and not all units have personel capable of providing advanced first aid in such rescues. We do not know the circumstances of the "fishing".

The guards at the hotel were protecting something, I don't know what, but a national guardsman could have probably stood around there. No reason to pay 100s per day for regular guard duty.

If my local government needed private organization personel at 1k/day to do mundane security guard work (because they were woefully unprepared for an event), I would vote them out of office. Weren't there like 10k natl guards there? Why couldn't one of them walk the FEMA personel around. Mismanagement, plain and simple.

 

[Little Raven]

Those are not the jobs Blackwater would be hired to do.

Those are the jobs Blackwater WAS hired to do.

Or do you think it will be different in the future?

 

[Ecofarm]

I think it will be different, sorry, I edited (alot, as usual) and explained myself more. You can see what I meant now.

ps. I also hope that $2k federal cash cards are not passed out like candy next time. Is that also going to be disaster policy in the future?

You are attempting to discredit the organization (or its use) by using the most mismanaged event of our generation as the model.

I expect alot of things will be different than the way they were done in Kartina, in the future. I freaking demand it. If things go like that again, well, then we deserve what we get and a million blackwater super-troopers can't save us. Then again, Nagin was re-elected, so I don't see why we bothered to fix the levy.

 

[Little Raven]

Katrina was exceptionally mis-handled by the local, state, and federal government. To use it as an example of what to expect is rather bleak.

Perhaps, but the same people that brought us Katrina are the ones telling us that Blackwater is the answer. That doesn't exactly fill me with confidence.

For what it's worth, I'm not trying to discredit Blackwater. They're doing quite a good job of that on their own. I'm trying to make sure Blackwater stays the hell away from my neighborhood should there ever be a disaster. I'm sure there are situations where their expertise and methodology is applicable. Disaster relief isn't one of them.

 

[Ecofarm]

You wouldn't feel that way if they "fished" your children out of deadly floodwaters. Every single quote I have seen, from every single situation, in every country, the people protected were happy to have their help. Every. Single. One.

You can say they have been discredited, but I am yet to see a single complaint from anyone protected by them, ever.

And no, the Iraq government kicking them out does not count. There are a multitude of political reasons for that and besides, blackwater was (and is) not there to protect the Iraq government. They are not paid by the Iraq government.

Show me one customer complaint before you declare them discredited. Show me one conviction. Show me anything (except your own personal and hysterical assessment of the company's power) that reflects poorly on the company.

Let's, for a moment, assume you had a perfectly accredited security company without any flaw or accusations whatsoever... Would it be ok for authorities to hire them in a disaster? Or are governments not allowed to hire anyone?

Is it blackwater in particular, or do you not want any private security hired, whatever the extenuating circumstance, ever, for disaster relief? Are you saying that we shoud ban private companies from government security contracts in disaster relief, no matter what?

If you do think that it might be ok for the government to hire a private security company, under some circumstances, in particular situations, during a disaster, just maybe... then what are your grounds for banning blackwater from bidding on those contracts?