Blackwater looks to expand domestic role...

[Little Raven]

You can say they have been discredited, but I am yet to see a single complaint from anyone protected by them, ever.

*laugh* I admit, they're great for the people they're protecting. Not so much for the people who happen to be around the people they're protecting.

Which is why they should stay the hell away from domestic operations. (IMO)

 

[innonimatu]

Nice discussion here. I don't care about how you americans screw your own country (your problem), but I'm curious about this, just for reason's sake:

private security forces can help in security matters. They don't need to assume police and military powers to provide security.

How can someone legally "provide security" without assuming police powers, when the law reserves the use of violence to enforce public security only to forces with those powers?

 

[Ecofarm]

The law does not reserve the use of violence to enforce public security to forces with those powers. As a private citizen, I have the right to defend another's life with deadly force. I can also conduct a "citizens arrest".

 

[innonimatu]

The law does not reserve the use of violence to enforce public security to forces with those powers. As a private citizen, I have the right to defend another's life with deadly force. I can also conduct a "citizens arrest".

I thought a monopoly of violence by the state was a feature of all modern states. Individual citizens can defend other's, that is reasonable enough (but probably nowhere free of some legal problems anyway). But having them do that on a wage, for a corporation?
To whom would they be responsible, their fellow citizens, to be helped regardless of self-interest, or the company paying them, able to order them to assist or ignore requests depending on returns?

 

[JZ_UK]

I thought a monopoly of violence by the state was a feature of all modern states. Individual citizens can defend other's, that is reasonable enough (but probably nowhere free of some legal problems anyway). But having them do that on a wage, for a corporation?
To whom would they be responsible, their fellow citizens, to be helped regardless of self-interest, or the company paying them, able to order them to assist or ignore requests depending on returns?

A monopoly on the legitimate use of force is a feature of a modern state... which is part of why having mercenaries on your streets isn't any kind of good idea...

Personally I'm not of the opinion that the private sector does everything better intrinsically because its the private sector... I sure don't want mercenaries trying to keep the peace after a disaster... or managing crowd control...

 

[.Shane.]

but if you want a sniper that will not fall asleep on guard duty... my money is on Blackwater.

This comment sums it up nicely.

If the job requires a sniper, then its not a job for mercenaries, at least not in a democratic republic. Its a job for the US Army or the Police.

 

[Elta]

Black Water ..... what a cartoonishly evil name.

 

[Bugfatty300]

How can someone legally "provide security" without assuming police powers

The same way security guards provide security with out assuming police powers...

when the law reserves the use of violence to enforce public security only to forces with those powers?

Incorrect. The use of violence to protect the public is not reserved for police only.

 

[.Shane.]

Incorrect. The use of violence to protect the public is not reserved for police only.

True, but are you going to argue that its reserved for mercenaries?

 

[Bugfatty300]

True, but are you going to argue that its reserved for mercenaries?

No ..................

 

[MobBoss]

They are not para-military. They are not subject to the UCMJ. They are private citizens in a security firm, nothing new, and no special privledges.

Errrr. Wrong on both counts. They most certainly are subject to the UCMJ in Iraq, and they most certainly are para-military....hell, they are made up of ex-special forces veterans.

 

[Shylock]

This reminds me of what Sam Fisher said in the Displace International level (I believe the 5th level) in Splinter Cell:Chaos Theory when you interrogate some bureaucrat looking to have Displace, a mercenary group, to protect New York City during the blackout in game.

I can't recall exactly what was said but it was basically citing the Roman Praetorian Guard and how mercenaries, who are answerable to the highest bidder would be in control.

 

[cubsfan6506]

I don't want black water anywhere with in 40,007.86 km of me.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

True, but are you going to argue that its reserved for mercenaries?

Check your PM box.

 

[Ecofarm]

Errrr. Wrong on both counts. They most certainly are subject to the UCMJ in Iraq, and they most certainly are para-military....hell, they are made up of ex-special forces veterans.

I disagree. Can they be court-martialed? Unless you can be sumarily court martialed and sentenced to Ft. Levenworth prison, you are not subject to the UCMJ.

Regarding paramilitary: It seems I have misused the term "paramilitary". I was thinking that being para-military requires a bit more than experience. I know people often call the boy-scouts paramilitary, but I thought that to really be paramilitary, it required support from the government. As a quick looking up of the definition proved, you only need to be organized like a military unit and/or support military troops. My bad, I misused the term.

So, can blackwater be sentanced to Levenworth? In what way are they subject to UCMJ? I ask not to call you wrong, but because I am unaware of such things. Are all civilian security firms subject to UCMJ? Can they be prosecuted for things like "disrespect towards a military officer"? If they said "Bush is a stupid idiot", would they be subject to an article 15? Could their pay be garnished? Can they be prosecuted for "improper wearing of the uniform"? If they get drunk and cause a scene, could they be prosecuted for "conduct unbecomming an officer"? Can they be convicted and reduced in pay-grade?

 

[CartesianFart]

Blackwater used domestically scares me like little else does - they're the worst combination of government and corporate power. They can hide behind "national security" and at the same time have no obligation to use what is effectively police power for the public good.

Kinda reminds me of the Umbrella Corporation in "Resident Evil." Corporate Army or Corporate Special Forces that they were.

 

[MobBoss]

I disagree. Can they be court-martialed? Unless you can be sumarily court martialed and sentenced to Ft. Levenworth prison, you are not subject to the UCMJ.

Disagree all you want, but read this: http://usmilitary.about.com/od/justicelawlegislation/a/civucmj.htm

A snippet: U.S. Military Contractors operating in combat zones are now subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ). Congress quietly made this change as part of the FY 2007 Military Authorization Act.

This means that civilian contractors in locations such as Iraq or Afghanistan can now be court-martialed or punished under the provisions of Article 15 if they violate any of the punitive articles of the UCMJ. For example, a civilian contractor who mouths off to a commissioned officer in Iraq could conceivably be court-martialed and sentenced to prison for up to one year for violating Article 89, Disrespect toward a superior commissioned officer.

As I said before....wrong on both counts.

 

[JZ_UK]

Any instances of its use though?

 

[GinandTonic]

For example, a civilian contractor who mouths off to a commissioned officer in Iraq could conceivably be court-martialed and sentenced to prison for up to one year for violating Article 89, Disrespect toward a superior commissioned officer.[/B]

For someone to disrespect a superior officer would they not have to hold an inferior rank, which in itself would require holding a rank.

I'm glad that they could be done for the biggie offences, but I just dont see how the example would work. Since they have no rank would a private out-rank the head of Black Water? If not does Black Water have NATO rank equivalencies recognised by the US and Iraqi military?

 

[MobBoss]

For someone to disrespect a superior officer would they not have to hold an inferior rank, which in itself would require holding a rank.

I'm glad that they could be done for the biggie offences, but I just dont see how the example would work. Since they have no rank would a private out-rank the head of Black Water? If not does Black Water have NATO rank equivalencies recognised by the US and Iraqi military?

They may not have rank, but they do have military superior officers. They all basically work for various commands, which in turn means they are answerable to the military in various ways.