BLM and Protesting

[El_Machinae]

Black Lives Matter, except black lives taken in the name of Black Lives Matter.

It's a terrible name for the movement, I agree. So, I think you're going to run into trouble in conversation (like, failing to answer my question previously) until you internalize that.

I knew about this story, since it so obviously fits the 'bad things happened during the protests' scorecard that BLM supporters need to keep.

 

[Estebonrober]

Windmills have long shadows. . .

 

[Seon]

Conservatives have been waving around polls indicating black Americans overwhelmingly oppose defunding the police, but they neglect to mention that black Americans are also the most likely demographic to claim they feel less secure with police presence and that they overwhelmingly approve of actual progress attained by defunding the police movement.

The original poll is used to misrepresent black opinion on the matter because it represents a leading question in the form of either/or. When asked for opinion on specific policies they absolutely do favor defunding the police—so long as those money is spent instead upon improving the safety and health of the local community thereby making the police obsolete.

 

[Estebonrober]

Conservatives have been waving around polls indicating black Americans overwhelmingly oppose defunding the police, but they neglect to mention that black Americans are also the most likely demographic to claim they feel less secure with police presence and that they overwhelmingly approve of actual progress attained by defunding the police movement.

The original poll is used to misrepresent black opinion on the matter because it represents a leading question in the form of either/or. When asked for opinion on specific policies they absolutely do favor defunding the police—so long as those money is spent instead upon improving the safety and health of the local community thereby making the police obsolete.

Right its not stop funding programs countering crime and violence it is expand programming to more preventative measures then jailing and harassing the local population instead of actually promoting it. . . I mean this is one of those things. It is literally common sense.

 

[El_Machinae]

I had to explain to a bitter RCMP retiree that that average "Defunder" would be perfectly fine with police getting a payraise (given certain improvements) and that because he didn't understand that, he couldn't really understand that the fuss what about. 'Defund' is another weird one where something like 40% of people understood the major goals as soon as it was said and 30% of people just cannot seem to grasp it.

 

[Seon]

Defunding and/or abolishing the police when it comes to policy measures ultimately means disaggregation of the Department and expenditure of non-confrontational methods of intervention and community aid.

The piece of statistic that conservatives are waving around is simply an either/or: defund the police, without it meaning any further spending on improving non-violent intervention. Of course most people would oppose it, but that’s not what people actually advocate for when they say they want to abolish the police.

 

[amadeus]

Then why use that messaging?

 

[Takhisis]

The thing is that total funding could go down and the pay of police staff (not only officers, but also counselling, trainers, etc.) could rise and the difference would simply come from not having to maintain nifty toys such as tanks, unconstitutional surveillance gear and assault rifles.

 

[Seon]

Because it is an accurate and succinct description. Disaggregating the police department necessarily means significant downsizing of what we term to be “Police,” some would argue that the necessary step in such a venture would be total abolishment of the original charter of the police and a fresh start with a new charter.

 

[Crezth]

What I don't understand is why are people confused about protesters advancing a message that isn't yet popular... like... if you want to get people to support something you gotta raise awareness of it and advocate for it. That's politics? I mean?

This round of protests has seen BLM's approval go up and awareness of racist policing increase as well. I mean protesting isn't about just saying what everyone agrees with and going home. What would be the point in that?

Even if most people don't support defunding police or, hell, want more police officers, there's still an advantage in BLM promoting the debate to the national stage. That's obvious.

 

[Estebonrober]

Because it is an accurate and succinct description. Disaggregating the police department necessarily means significant downsizing of what we term to be “Police,” some would argue that the necessary step in such a venture would be total abolishment of the original charter of the police and a fresh start with a new charter.

This is becoming more apparent as we watch four years of escalation and the countering of any momentum we gain by police unions and associations which constantly double down on rhetoric of dystopian nightmares at the slightest pretense of reform.

 

[El_Machinae]

Then why use that messaging?

I don't know if the messaging is to blame. I might have said it in another thread, but we live in a society where a certain fraction of people just don't think water expands as it warms ... when the messaging is super-intuitive to some, but not to others, it's hard to apportion blame. Now, I think there's value in trying to explain, or recraft the messaging, because the person wanting the change should use every tool in the toolkit. But, it's frustrating when the reticence is overwhelming.

 

[Angst]

If peaceful protests don't work...

If people perceive that you step on them, eventually they're going to react. If their actions then still doesn't get them help with their issues, the reactions will escalate. This will continue until appeasement.

People have natural capacity for violence, so sometimes it will grow violent.

In a sense, I'm really not sympathetic to those that dismiss the whole movement based on their violence against people or property. Hear me out here. Just a superficial survey of the demographic situation in the US shows that the black poor have it bad. This causes unrest. It's not that aimless destruction and violence is ever something that I think is OK, nor do I myself think it is a constructive way to achieve things (most of the time). That said, I am a white Dane that don't face these issues when I'm politically active, and they have attempted peaceful protests many times before, and have been ignored or sometimes, if not often, met with aggression, violence and sometimes murder - by the law enforcement itself, too. The law enforcement in question is supposed to safekeep democratic rights and guarantee common safety. When a demographic is faced with uncooperative law enforcement, it begets violence.

Regardless of what one thinks of the dark splodges of this movement... After ignoring them for so long or ignoring the violence performed against them during more peaceful protests, whether one thinks this violence is justified or not - I have to ask -

What did you think would happen?

 

[stinkubus]

Why is is that the US withdraws so many basic rights like voting from "felons", but does not place bad cops who were fired in a database of people who must not be hired again for the job, anywhere?

There is no such database. There is nothing to prevent a police department from hiring someone who was fired from a previous LEO job for misconduct. Local law enforcement in the US have almost zero oversight.

Campaigning on reform is a huge loser politically. American's cultural attitudes toward crime and punishment are barbaric.

 

[Estebonrober]

I don't know if the messaging is to blame. I might have said it in another thread, but we live in a society where a certain fraction of people just don't think water expands as it warms ... when the messaging is super-intuitive to some, but not to others, it's hard to apportion blame. Now, I think there's value in trying to explain, or recraft the messaging, because the person wanting the change should use every tool in the toolkit. But, it's frustrating when the reticence is overwhelming.

I think its a good combination of both, being in the rural midwest I can attest to the fact that a lot of this is possible to overcome but good luck finding a loud enough bullhorn with a consistent enough messaging to do it. Also there is some multitude whose identity is wrapped up in this kind of denial so yea there is no breaking through. I recall recently trying to explain white privilege to a guy who was pissed that his children had made his wife cry over trying to explain it to her. There was no breaking that wall down. Boomer was gonna boom.

 

[Samson]

The original poll is used to misrepresent black opinion on the matter because it represents a leading question in the form of either/or. When asked for opinion on specific policies they absolutely do favor defunding the police—so long as those money is spent instead upon improving the safety and health of the local community thereby making the police obsolete.

Yeah, the 1st question is "3A. Support for police reform policies — Defunding the police", and that gets 49% support, then the next is "3B. Support for police reform policies — Budgeting less money for your local police department and more for social services (for instance,funding social workers and mental health professionals)" which is exactly what defund the police means to most people who advocate for it, and that gets 55% support.

 

[EgonSpengler]

This guy from L.A. stood outside a Walmart in Harrison, Arkansas, with a Black Lives Matter sign and filmed the reactions.

NSFW, for language.

Not everybody in this video is a pimple on the [backside] of humanity - I think the kid who warned the guy about being around after dark was trying to be helpful and wasn't threatening him, for instance - and of course the people who just drove on by without saying anything aren't included in the video. Still, after watching this, an episode of The Walking Dead might cheer me up. Incidentally, this is the same guy who did the video of a woman minding her own business on the streets of New York City several years ago (about which I could say more, but this is the wrong thread for that).

 

[Commodore]

This guy from L.A. stood outside a Walmart in Harrison, Arkansas, with a Black Lives Matter sign and filmed the reactions.

NSFW, for language.

Not everybody in this video is a pimple on the [backside] of humanity - I think the kid who warned the guy about being around after dark was trying to be helpful and wasn't threatening him, for instance - and of course the people who just drove on by without saying anything aren't included in the video. Still, after watching this, an episode of The Walking Dead might cheer me up. Incidentally, this is the same guy who did the video of a woman minding her own business on the streets of New York City several years ago (about which I could say more, but this is the wrong thread for that).

The problem I have with all these types of videos is they are heavily edited in a way that supports whatever point the creator is trying to make. I'd like to see the unedited version to see how many people didn't say anything compared to the number of negative reactions we see in this video.

 

[amadeus]

I don't know if the messaging is to blame.

I’m looking at it from the standpoint of reticence mitigation. I would say that the messaging is somewhat unclear, and by result you end up unintentionally misleading people.

“Defund the police!” Are most people going to take the time to listen to what that entails? That is if you get that far, because there are people (as you pointed out in a way) that will immediately draw the conclusion that defunding the police means a lawless, chaotic society.

 

[EgonSpengler]

The problem I have with all these types of videos is they are heavily edited in a way that supports whatever point the creator is trying to make. I'd like to see the unedited version to see how many people didn't say anything compared to the number of negative reactions we see in this video.

Yes, no question about that. He was trying to show that blatant, strident, conscious racism still exists. And he did show a number of people saying other things. One guy shouted something about Jesus. The Walmart employees were trying to keep it in the realm of corporate policy. Several people gave him a middle-finger, which could mean any number of things. It seemed like several people were of the sort we were talking about earlier, who think "Black Lives Matter" means "[Only] Black Lives Matter", and I guess it's open to interpretation why they insist on thinking that. Nevertheless, it still shows a bunch of people saying some [stuff] that sounds straight out of a Hollywood movie about how racist America was in, like, 1930, and I have no reason to think it's some kind of "deep fake" video.