1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

BNW Civ Victory Types (Domination, Culture, Diplomacy, Science)

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by seancolorado, Jul 17, 2013.

  1. seancolorado

    seancolorado Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2012
    Messages:
    2,106
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Jakarta, Indonesia
    We all see this question get asked a lot: What Civ should I pursue for what victory type? Well, I decided to find out.

    I used a points-based system in determining each Civilization's strengths and weaknesses. Basically, I took a look at the UA, UU, and other Unique of the Civ and gave points depending on what victory type they all favor. For UUs, I looked in particular at the specific traits. I'm not trying to tell anyone how to play the game. Simply put, it looks at the Uniques and states 'on paper' what they would be best for. For the most part, it actually works out.

    Some points of interest:
    • If a Civ was 100% flavored in one direction based on all Uniques, they were given extra points for that victory type.
    • I did not take into account Social Policies, AI tendencies, and human player tendencies, etc, so please take it with a grain of salt.
    • No Civs occupy the Science/Diplomacy quadrant.
    • Only two civs received points against a certain victory type: Ethiopia and India. Only one civ has zero victory bias: Inca.
    • Check the Spoilers to see the two best victory types for each civ. (Some just have one.)

    Oh, and warning: I'm awful with photo-editing software. So bare with me. Because this is as clean as it gets:



    Spoiler :
    Getting into the points system is complicated. Instead, if you want to know how I came about the points please ask me about a specific civ. You'll understand much easier that way (but mostly it takes way too much time to write out 43 separate descriptions).

    America
    Domination [4]

    Arabia
    Diplomatic [4]
    Domination [2]

    Assyria
    Domination [5]
    Science [2]

    Austria
    Diplomatic [1]
    Domination [1]

    Aztecs
    Domination [2]
    Culture [1]

    Babylon
    Science [4]
    Domination [1]

    Brazil
    Culture [5]
    Domination [1]

    Byzantium
    Domination [3]

    Carthage
    Domination [3]

    Celts
    Domination [2]
    Culture [1]

    China
    Domination [3]
    Science [1]

    Denmark
    Domination [5]

    Egypt
    Domination [1]

    England
    Domination [3]

    Ethiopia
    Culture [2]
    Domination [-2]

    France
    Culture [4]
    Domination [1]

    Germany
    Domination [6]

    Greece
    Diplomatic [2]
    Domination [2]

    Huns
    Domination [7]

    Inca
    n/a

    India
    Culture [4]
    Domination [-4]

    Indonesia
    Diplomatic [3]
    Domination [2]

    Iroquois
    Diplomatic [1]
    Domination [1]

    Japan
    Domination [6]

    Korea
    Science [4]

    Maya
    Science [2]

    Mongolia
    Domination [7]

    Morocco
    Diplomatic [4]
    Culture [1]

    Netherlands
    Diplomatic [2]
    Domination [2]

    Ottomans
    Domination [7]

    Persia
    Domination [2]
    Culture [1]

    Poland
    Domination [2]

    Polynesia
    Culture [2]
    Diplomatic [1]

    Portugal
    Diplomatic [4]
    Domination [1]

    Rome
    Domination [3]

    Russia
    Domination [4]

    Shoshone
    Domination [1]

    Siam
    Diplomatic [2]
    Culture [2]

    Songhai
    Domination [4]
    Culture [2]

    Spain
    Domination [3]

    Sweden
    Diplomatic [2]
    Domination [2]

    Venice
    Diplomatic [3]
    Domination [1]
    Notes: The only one where I was unsure if my points system worked.

    Zulu
    Domination [8]
     
  2. digrosz

    digrosz Dirty Frank

    Joined:
    May 1, 2013
    Messages:
    377
    Location:
    The Netherlands
    Nice work :)
    Seems accurate, but I do not agree with India getting negatives for domination. Those elephants, man! :D
    I also find it funny that the heavy money-making civs are diplo :lol: After all, a diplo victory = economic victory
     
  3. Viregel

    Viregel , The Rt. Hon.

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2013
    Messages:
    1,945
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Kingdom of the Britons
    You probably should have done this with a Venn diagram, but nice work anyway. :)

    EDIT: My bad, that would be near impossible. To do it fully your way, you'd need a fourth dimension. Also, please can you explain the Venice points? I'm interested to see how you went about this.
     
  4. seancolorado

    seancolorado Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2012
    Messages:
    2,106
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Jakarta, Indonesia
    Yeah like I said in the 'Notes' in the Spoilers Venice was the only Civ I wasn't sure about working with my point system.

    But I gave Venice Diplo 3, Domination 1.

    Basically:
    UA
    -Cannot gain settler nor annex cities - No pts
    -Double the normal number of trade routes available -1 pt diplomacy
    -A Merchant of Venice appears after researching Optics - 1 diplomacy because you have the option to use it to gain influence with city-states, but doesn't necessarily mean you will
    -May purchase in puppeted cities - No pts
    UU
    -Great Galleass - 1 pt domination (UUs always get at least 1 pt for domination unless they have an ability that favors defense such as the Mehal Sefari. UUs which have a trait that actively promotes attacking a city such as the Battering Ram get 2 pts. This is why Great Galleass has 1 pt)
    UGP
    -1 pt diplomacy for +100% more City-State influence than a normal Trade Mission
     
  5. Eunomiac

    Eunomiac Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2007
    Messages:
    87
    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    Not the OP here, but I think Venice makes sense:

    Science/Culture -- Nothing about Venice's unique abilities or units helps either of these.

    Domination -- the Great Galleas probably explains the +1 to Domination, though I'd have taken the unique ability Trade Route bonus into account here and given them a few more points, perhaps: The absurd amount of gold Venice can generate lets them field a larger army; quickly purchase units (in puppet cities, too); influence other civs to join in DoW's; and forge alliances with City-States for strategic resources (or outright units, in the case of Militaristic CS's). Even their disadvantage has a silver lining, giving them less territory to defend. Venice is a very credible mid-to-late game military threat, and they can come out of nowhere to strike very quickly. The disruption to their trade routes following a DoW is one thing that holds them back, though.

    Diplomacy -- Venice should probably have a +7 here. +8? +20? Diplomatic Victory = Economic Victory, and Venice's ability to rake in the gold with double the trade routes is borderline broken. It's hard to compete with a civilization that can buy an alliance with every CS on the map, and still have money to spare.

    Edit: Ninja'd :) I think the "Trade Route Bonus" part of Venice's UA is worth FAR more than one point, and not just in Diplomacy.
     
  6. rpottage

    rpottage Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2013
    Messages:
    1
    Actually that's not true.

    The extra trade routes can help with both those things; having a trade-route with another civilization gives you +25% influence over them from tourism, which is the new cultural victory.
    Trade-routes also trade science. If the civilization you are trading with has technologies that you don't have; then you get science back in the trade-route.

    So if you have twice as many trade-routes you can use them to gain influence over twice as many civilizations, or use them to gain twice as much science in trades. (The ideologies help out even more with the science since you can buy your way to the science victory.)

    The problem is that while their UA/UU's can help with all of the victory conditions; they can also hurt you with all the victory conditions.
    Domination with Venice is more difficult when you're relying on your trade-routes for money only to lose them all when you go to war; and it's hard to field a large domain of cities when you can never reduce the unhappiness from conquering them since you can never build a courthouse.
    Culturally; Venice can gain a lot of tourism but become weak to tourism as well with a smaller empire building less culture for defence and with trade-routes giving your enemies +25% influence over you.
    Scientifically; becoming the science leader means you will leak science to everyone you trade with and potentially push them to on par or even ahead of you.
    Diplomatically; it's not hard for Venice to find that when they go to be elected the World Leader; there aren't enough votes as half the City-States have been brought under their control through the use of the great merchant.


    Venice is a difficult one because their greatest strengths are also their greatest weaknesses.
     
  7. Muskie

    Muskie Chieftain

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2006
    Messages:
    240
    Location:
    Vancouver BC Canada
    If Steam made more data available you wouldn't need to do much work. I was looking at the rarest earned badges and a lot of them are to do with scenarios and DLC. But looking on the flip side you can totally see which Civilizations are popular and possibly over powered as many, many people have won with them.

    For me and my play style I find diplomacy the easiest victory in BNW though I'm actually trying to win Culturally, this time with France. I think for speed assuing you don't go Pangea map and then kill all your neighbors without needing to research naval tech, Science victory may be the easiest/quickest. But I do so well at Diplomatic victory that I can usually vote myself in before reaching Alpha Centauri.

    But that seems to be just me.
     
  8. JokerJace

    JokerJace Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 23, 2013
    Messages:
    492
    I dont see why 2 victory types contradict each other in the illustration. Also what counts towards what is too simplistic. And what if an ability is good for domination and diplomacy?
     
  9. arcticpulse

    arcticpulse Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2012
    Messages:
    10
    How does Portugal play out? Does it's UA give it a noticeable increase in gold?
     
  10. seancolorado

    seancolorado Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2012
    Messages:
    2,106
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Jakarta, Indonesia
    Mare Clausum: 2 diplo pts.
    (1 pt for UA due to intl. trade routes. Since there is no 2nd aspect to UA, bigger emphasis on UA hence 1 pt extra)

    Nau: 1 diplo pt, 1 domination pt.
    (1 diplo pt from having to sell in foreign lands. 1 domination pt from gaining XP for doing so and the fact that it's a unique unit with no attacking penalties.)

    Feitoria: 1 diplo pt
    (If built while an ally, provides double resources)
     
  11. seancolorado

    seancolorado Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2012
    Messages:
    2,106
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Jakarta, Indonesia
    Keep in mind this is meant to be simplistic and just a suggestion for those who want to try a victory type with a civ they don't usually play. No straight lines here. Just how I personally view each civ

    Having said that, I take into account abilities for both domination and diplomacy.

    Example: Arabia. 4 diplo, 2 dom. They move to 4 points down towards diplomatic victory, but climb back up 2 points due to their domination advantages.

    Or another example, Greece. 2 diplo, 2 dom. So they stay square in the very center of the graph
     
  12. Louis XXIV

    Louis XXIV Le Roi Soleil

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2003
    Messages:
    13,579
    Location:
    Norfolk, VA
    I could see India doing well in science just from the high pop (now that there's an expansion city penalty). I think it's just difficult to represent that if a Civ is really good for one and solid for the one on the opposite side of the spectrum (they look like they're just ok at both).
     
  13. JohnYoga

    JohnYoga Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2006
    Messages:
    409
    Location:
    San Diego
    Hello Sean, et al.,

    Any updates to analysis? It's been a while.:p

    Thanks a bunch, BTW...

    Regards,

    Marc
    San Diego
     
  14. Vitruvius

    Vitruvius Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2013
    Messages:
    862
    The next step would be to visualize the data in 4D rather than 2D. I think the easy way would be to plot Culture, Science and Diplomacy in a 3D graph and then represent Domination using the size of the data point (I.e. the size of the civ logo)

    Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk
     
  15. joncnunn

    joncnunn Senior Java Wizard Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2008
    Messages:
    8,621
    Location:
    Missouri
    I think this is a chart of what the AI flavors are.

    For your own play:

    You need science for everything so it's really pick whatever you want for all civs.
    It takes an extreme traight such as Brazil's caraval to push them out of the center as a human.

    Civs with direct science boosts are the best at everything,
    Civs with direct gold boosts convert them into science / happiness / city influence via cash rushing or granting gold to city states
    Civs with direct happiness boosts convert them into gold / science by not paying as much maintenance costs on happiness buildings and not having to cash buy as many happiness buildings.

    Greece is still slightly towards Diplomatic since it's more difficult to convert a bonus with city influence into gold than it is converting gold into city influence.
     
  16. jlim201

    jlim201 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2013
    Messages:
    825
    Location:
    Somewhere North of the South Pole
    So the Inca are flavoured to never win?
     
  17. JohnYoga

    JohnYoga Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2006
    Messages:
    409
    Location:
    San Diego
    Hello,

    I have found the Arabian Camel Archers to be either the most powerful military unit during the Medieval era. Now, there maybe something stronger, but I have yet to come across it.

    It also has a four movement, which means one can attack a city and bounce far enough away to not get city-bombarded.

    Therefore, I think Arabia should have the highest score for a Dominance victory.

    Regards,

    Marc
     
  18. reddishrecue

    reddishrecue Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2009
    Messages:
    5,206
    Gender:
    Male
    The way that chart is put up, I have to say good job..
     
  19. Sagax

    Sagax Warlord

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2013
    Messages:
    1,209
    Really nice job, but I think a rating/star-based overview for each VC per civ could send a clearer message. As pointed out, Arabia is the best example - their UA/UU/UB combo is just too versatile and allows you to be an economic powerhouse just as well as a warring monster - this is hard to show on your graph where Domination and Diplomacy are the opposite axes. So I liked the summary in your spoiler, although it does raise some issues with certain civs (like Inca and Shoshone). What about an overview like this:

    Arabia (just some rough numbers, to get the idea)
    Domination - 4.5/5
    Science - 3.5/5
    Culture - 3.5/5
    Diplomacy - 4/5

    Inca
    Domination - 3/5
    Science - 4/5
    Culture - 3.5/5
    Diplomacy - 3.5/5

    I used 3 as the average score that means "the civ doesn't have tools that significantly facilitate getting the victory condition, but neither does it have features that work in the opposite direction" (0 in your scoring system). And of course, the scoring process is always a bit subjective and empirical, so a lot is up to discussion.
     
  20. rkade8583

    rkade8583 Realism Invictus Player

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2003
    Messages:
    770
    Location:
    Washington
    I'd like to know more about how you did the Celts.
     

Share This Page