[BNW] Diety World Wonders Tier Thread

[stormtrooper412]

Yeah, which is why you risk by delaying it and get it out at around the time you get Internet/NVC. Not saying it's what you need to do but sometimes Broadway doesn't go that early

 

[Evening gonad]

If it doesn't go, I think it would be among the best wonders. And I don't think it is much of a "risk" not building it . Has it really lasted that long in your games?

 

[stormtrooper412]

Well the *risk* means allowing someone else to finish it, innit

 

[Evening gonad]

Indeed. You are actually right, if you are going really fast, you might have time to complete it in the early 200 region, and if you are flying down the tech tree you might be able to create an internet enhanced Great Musician from Broadway. But it would be quite early for a peaceful CV. Military CV might also have use for it, though I don't have any experience with that. Hmmmmmm.

[Edit]: No, it would only have to be somewhat early CV. Doable for a good/great player. Maybe I'll have to reevaluate Broadway. For some reason I assumed it would go sub 200, but it actually goes much later.

[Edit]: No, it WOULD have to be a quite early CV. Broadway seems to go between 210-220 most of the time. Not impossible for the best, but I'm not anywhere near there. Still, extremely interesting. Thanks for bringing this up!

 

[reddishrecue]

The thing with Broadway is that its triple great musician set up for theme bonus takes so much time and effort to wait for that I often prefer to take it easy and get the Eiffel tower instead. However, if you were able to get Broadway and you got a couple of great musicians and simply wait for the other musician to be born so that you can finally get that theming bonus for Broadway.

 

[Acken]

I don't want to create a huge post so I'll just make a couple of remarks:

-Great Library.
You demoted it because of the cost. I'm not sure I follow you on that one ? Did you really take that into account for all wonders ? For example Notre Dame is extremely difficult to get on Deity and it's ranked A. Temple of Artemis is also a wonder you must get fast. I think there is a lack of consistency here.
Yes people overvalue that wonder but if I can get it without beelining it's worth it (after settlers). Free Philo or free iron working or theology are powerful options for the free tech. 3 Additional beaker, GS point and a free tech are worth 100 hammers (since you still get a free library out of it).

Red Fort
I sometimes make this one to speed up a GS. Do know if it should be moved though... just wanted to say I make this one more often than Angkor Wat.

Great Mosque
Maybe the fact that you need Piety to build this should be taken into account. And the bonus isn't that good. Fast games don't allow you to make many missionaries unless you get a crazy faith to make a ton of them. I'll always preffer Borobudur over it.

Some of the culture wonders seem undervalued. While they are not very useful out of culture games you'll build them a lot more than the likes of Brandenburg Gate and Cristo Redentor. Globe is also a wonder I generally like to build for science victories.

Finally the Taj Mahal is a free golden age, at a time you are unlikely to get another one. If you have CI and/or freedom booster it's a great wonder.

 

[nickytootricky]

I don't want to create a huge post so I'll just make a couple of remarks:

-Great Library.
You demoted it because of the cost. I'm not sure I follow you on that one ? Did you really take that into account for all wonders ? For example Notre Dame is extremely difficult to get on Deity and it's ranked A. Temple of Artemis is also a wonder you must get fast. I think there is a lack of consistency here.
Yes people overvalue that wonder but if I can get it without beelining it's worth it (after settlers). Free Philo or free iron working or theology are powerful options for the free tech. 3 Additional beaker, GS point and a free tech are worth 100 hammers (since you still get a free library out of it).

Red Fort
I sometimes make this one to speed up a GS. Do know if it should be moved though... just wanted to say I make this one more often than Angkor Wat.

Great Mosque
Maybe the fact that you need Piety to build this should be taken into account. And the bonus isn't that good. Fast games don't allow you to make many missionaries unless you get a crazy faith to make a ton of them. I'll always preffer Borobudur over it.

Some of the culture wonders seem undervalued. While they are not very useful out of culture games you'll build them a lot more than the likes of Brandenburg Gate and Cristo Redentor. Globe is also a wonder I generally like to build for science victories.

Finally the Taj Mahal is a free golden age, at a time you are unlikely to get another one. If you have CI and/or freedom booster it's a great wonder.

If you can get the GL after settlers then I will proclaim you the Supreme Deity of all Deity players. The only time I've been able to get GL on Deity has been when I have a really nice mixed growth/production start and pop Pottery or Writing. Then after that to get it you've got to divert the Tradition policies to get the 15% bonus, and chop down all your forests. I can't see it being worth it.

Otherwise fair points.

 

[stormtrooper412]

I've seen GL go at 41 in a recent game, that's about as late as I can remember. I've seen it go before 30 plenty of times though

 

[chumchu]

If you are going to build GL or any early wonder on deity while still getting your settlers out, liberty is the way to go. You should get your free settlers about the same time as your wonder finishes (35ish)

 

[Evening gonad]

I appreciate the input Acken!

I don't want to create a huge post so I'll just make a couple of remarks:

-Great Library.
You demoted it because of the cost. I'm not sure I follow you on that one ? Did you really take that into account for all wonders ? For example Notre Dame is extremely difficult to get on Deity and it's ranked A. Temple of Artemis is also a wonder you must get fast. I think there is a lack of consistency here.
Yes people overvalue that wonder but if I can get it without beelining it's worth it (after settlers). Free Philo or free iron working or theology are powerful options for the free tech. 3 Additional beaker, GS point and a free tech are worth 100 hammers (since you still get a free library out of it).

I agree about the lack of consistency, and I would prefer to rank this (and maybe Stonehenge) higher for my original criteria. However, many people seemed to get caught up in the issue of the costs associated with bee-lining it, which makes sense because people tend to report on their experiences with those wonders. Rather than getting a flood of comments on those two, I thought it would be easier to downgrade them and continue to solicit information about the others. A sacrifice of theoretical clarity in order to reduce noise.

Red Fort
I sometimes make this one to speed up a GS. Do know if it should be moved though... just wanted to say I make this one more often than Angkor Wat.

GS points are useful enough to make a wonder that generates them situationally useful. That makes sense, and I will move it up.

Great Mosque
Maybe the fact that you need Piety to build this should be taken into account. And the bonus isn't that good. Fast games don't allow you to make many missionaries unless you get a crazy faith to make a ton of them. I'll always preffer Borobudur over it.

I am definitely getting support for Borobudur, so I'll move that up.

Some of the culture wonders seem undervalued. While they are not very useful out of culture games you'll build them a lot more than the likes of Brandenburg Gate and Cristo Redentor. Globe is also a wonder I generally like to build for science victories.

I really am not sure what to do with Brandenburg Gate, as I don't think I have built it. I will lower that. The cultural wonders do feel a little low, and I think some of that has to do with having wonders that I know little about too high. So if you can spot other things like Brandenburg that are only situationally useful, I would appreciate if you point them out. Also, I think I am undervaluing wonders that come with a great artists and writers. The great people themselves are pretty good.

Finally the Taj Mahal is a free golden age, at a time you are unlikely to get another one. If you have CI and/or freedom booster it's a great wonder.

I will keep that in mind, as I do like being able to generate a golden age without expending a great person.

If you have any free time, it sounds like there are other points you might make, so I would like to hear them in the future.

 

[Acken]

If you can get the GL after settlers then I will proclaim you the Supreme Deity of all Deity players. The only time I've been able to get GL on Deity has been when I have a really nice mixed growth/production start and pop Pottery or Writing. Then after that to get it you've got to divert the Tradition policies to get the 15% bonus, and chop down all your forests. I can't see it being worth it.

Otherwise fair points.

That's not my point. As far as I understand this list was judging wonders only by themselves not whether or not you can get them.

GL is unavailable on deity but it's a good wonder. Though not worth sacrificing all for it yes.

I was mostly pointing out that it didn't seem fair to penalize GL for how hard it is to get without sacrifice while it's not a factor on some wonders.

 

[Manpanzee]

Sydney Opera House is the one that stands out most to me as undervalued. I build it a lot in my science games. It's not sexy, but if you're culture constrained then picking up a single free policy can shave a good ten turns or more off of victory time.

The thing about SOH in a science victory is that the opportunity cost is super low -- most of your cities will just be building science at this point. It's also not terribly uncommon to have some spare faith for a Great Engineer (once you've accounted for a couple Scientists and the future Scientist cost gets really high). Also not uncommon to be able to naturally spawn a GE if you want it, since you generally work a bunch of Engineer slots eventually (especially with Freedom). SOH is a much better late game wonder than Cristo/Pentagon, and I think the low opportunity cost counts for a lot, relative to early-mid game wonders that always come with the built-in cost of not building important other stuff.

 

[pvtjava]

Disclaimer - I have never won a cultural victory on Diety!

I think Broadway can be effective as a themed Wonder. With Aesthetics finished its +12 tourism. This can be had on the turn you build it with a little planning. Plus, with all +% GP points modifiers in place, Musicians come pretty fast anyway, or you can (again, with Aesthetics finished) faith buy them for the concerts.

 

[adcarrymaokai]

GL is unavailable on deity

I built the GL on Deity once. As Spain on the coast with the Great Barrier Reef and some chops with rush-bought workers.

OT: I love Pisa, and the Oracle is really nice considering it is very often available. The Uffizi is a good wonder for CV because it golds 3 work of art slots and gives a free GA. So that's 6 tourism, another 3 from theming bonus, another 3 from Aesthetics finisher, and that gets modified by the NVC and the Internet. But it can also be substituted by the Hermitage (which is trickier to fill).

 

[nickytootricky]

That's not my point. As far as I understand this list was judging wonders only by themselves not whether or not you can get them.

GL is unavailable on deity but it's a good wonder. Though not worth sacrificing all for it yes.

I was mostly pointing out that it didn't seem fair to penalize GL for how hard it is to get without sacrifice while it's not a factor on some wonders.

Yes, I actually agree with you, the list should be consistent. There is no point in including the wonders you can't get 95%+ of the time on a deity list.

Either that or make a Settler tier list and then you can call GL a tier 1 wonder, of course.

 

[Evening gonad]

Sydney Opera House is the one that stands out most to me as undervalued. I build it a lot in my science games. It's not sexy, but if you're culture constrained then picking up a single free policy can shave a good ten turns or more off of victory time.

The thing about SOH in a science victory is that the opportunity cost is super low -- most of your cities will just be building science at this point. It's also not terribly uncommon to have some spare faith for a Great Engineer (once you've accounted for a couple Scientists and the future Scientist cost gets really high). Also not uncommon to be able to naturally spawn a GE if you want it, since you generally work a bunch of Engineer slots eventually (especially with Freedom). SOH is a much better late game wonder than Cristo/Pentagon, and I think the low opportunity cost counts for a lot, relative to early-mid game wonders that always come with the built-in cost of not building important other stuff.

That isn't a bad point on Sydney Opera House and Science victories. I'll keep that in mind, I have played several science games where I am starved for policies.

 

[Evening gonad]

@pvtjava

Disclaimer - I have never won a cultural victory on Diety!

I think Broadway can be effective as a themed Wonder. With Aesthetics finished its +12 tourism. This can be had on the turn you build it with a little planning. Plus, with all +% GP points modifiers in place, Musicians come pretty fast anyway, or you can (again, with Aesthetics finished) faith buy them for the concerts.

I'm still down on Broadway in general. Unless you are stealing great works of music, you have just popped 3 musicians (and you would want to keep them around without actually creating the works for a while, if I recall the theming correctly), so handling any culture runaways might get bogged down. I think its fairly common to need at least three musicians, and even buying just two musicians likely means you will be stretched on buying scientists, and the like. I may be undervaluing this, though.

@adcarrymaokai

OT: I love Pisa, and the Oracle is really nice considering it is very often available. The Uffizi is a good wonder for CV because it golds 3 work of art slots and gives a free GA. So that's 6 tourism, another 3 from theming bonus, another 3 from Aesthetics finisher, and that gets modified by the NVC and the Internet. But it can also be substituted by the Hermitage (which is trickier to fill).

I agree, I think I have been undervaluing Uffizi. I am likely to move it up further.

 

[tpac]

Parthenon (Culture): Early tourism just doesn’t seem all that important. Lots of culture, though. I like culture.

I really wouldn't put this on par as the others in this range. Yeah, the extra culture is nice, but we're talking as much as being friends with a cultural city state. Not a huge boost IMHO compared to the rest in this range.

Statue of Zeus (Domination): I hate attacking cities. They are so smug and hard to damage. Anything that makes that easier is good. Its cheap too. Though ideally you just capture it. In my (very) uninformed opinion, my favorite Domination wonder.

Not great, and requires going honor.

[Edit: Moved down]
Kremlin (Domination): Probably the worst of the ideology unique wonders. But if armor units are your path to victory, this would help a bunch. I feel that you would have got the bulk of your conquering done by this point, and I’ve never really used armor that much. I guess I am more into bombers and artillery. Free policy alone is again probably worth it.

I'd put this even further down. It's really just a free policy. You don't build much armor.

Forbidden Palace (Diplomatic): Extra delegates help you win. The unhappiness reduction is also sweet. I want this wonder. Still, each of these effects can be duplicated through other means.

I'd move the Forbidden Palace up. 10% off unhappiness can be a lot depending on the population. And depending on how the timing works out (often not so good on deity admittedly), those two extra votes can let you pass what you choose on that first congress.

[Edit: Moved down]
Great Mosque of Djenne (Any): The increased spreading ability of missionaries is probably not a huge deal, and this is weaker than the other Theology wonders because it generates no great people or missionaries. All it does is generate faith. You can still build a temple, unlike Hagia Sophia (where it is unlikely you can build a mosque). Another downer is having to take Piety.

I'd move the Great Mosque even further down. Useless.

Neuschanwantsomething (Any): I confess, I build this thing more than I am comfortable admitting. I think I settle near mountains a great deal, and it is often available. The last women at the bar, and all, you know? Don’t judge me. Anyway, in terms of actual effects you get lots of gold, culture, and happiness, and even more with castles. OK if you are turtling with defenses.

This should go up IMHO - it's a great happiness booster for a wide empire.

[Edit: Moved down]
Cristo Redentor (Any): This seems more powerful than it plays. Maybe because the effects are so under the hood, and comes relatively late. It is just so burdensome to build with its hammer count. More expensive than SoL, and it doesn’t have anything approaching that flash. It feels like building the Parthenon at 5 times the cost and 150+ turns later. Not a lot of competition for it, though.

I'd move Cristo Redentor even further down. 10% off is pretty much useless at this late in the game. If I had my way, I'd move it's effect to Angor Wat, where it might actually make some difference, and make this something else (probably tourism related)

[Edit: Moved up, changed victory condition]
Broadway(Any BUT Culture Culture): A culture producing Wonder for you, and gives you music slots so you don't need opera houses. MUCH WORSE SCORE FOR CULTURE VICTORY, AND IS PROBABLY A TRAP. Best to save your musicians for bombs. Actually could be used to hurry a CV as a bomb if you move really quickly and get a little lucky.

I'd move this further down than the other cultural wonders - those musicians are needed to culture bomb on deity, not fill this.

[Edit: Moved down]
Brandenburg Gate (Domination): XP for units with GS points and a Great General. That’s not terrible. Still, as with all military based Wonders, I always think: Shouldn’t I just be building units? Maybe it is better for peaceful play, where GG’s are harder to come by.

I'd actually disagree with moving it down. With this wonder stacking in a city you can get triple-promoted units right out of the gate.

Sydney Opera House (Culture): Policies are great, so if you are in the endgame that requires something, and you haven’t got it yet, maybe this will save your plan. Still, comes too late for the rest of it to have meaning. Music slots are terrible for CV, and this is in the CV line of tech. If it came with a musician, that would actually be something. Hell, even if it came with a pre-built great work of music. Late game wonders should come with great people more often.

The free policy makes this one better than Cristo, and maybe on par with the Kremlin (50% culture boost is better, but it comes much later).

CN Tower (Culture): If you beelining internet, maybe you could build it so you don’t have to build broadcasting towers in all your cities if you are doing a Liberty/Freedom cultural victory with tons of cities or something. Still, probably better to have built towers earlier. The happiness and population is probably moot at this late date.

Personally, I've move this one down to the garbage tier as well.

 

[Redaxe]

Neuschanwantsomething

This Wonder actually can fill a nice niche - if you are a wide civ and under heavy ideological pressure the happiness and culture can really turn things around for you. Its also almost never built by the AI.


About Broadway
Most people insist that Great Musicians shouldn't be used until your ready to concert your way to victory? Is that always the best way to play?
You get quite a bit of extra culture from working the musician guild and I've always created about 3 musicians before I'm ready to go on concerts. Normally I would have full aesthetics so I can buy extra musicians with faith if I need to but I feel like Broadway is another means to ramp up your tourism significantly so why not use it?

Notre Dame I would put further down - its a great Wonder sure but it is impossible to get on Diety. Truth be told their are better wonders to get in the Renaissance era and you should focus on Education first to get universities going.

Chichen Itza is in the same boat as Notre Dame - its a great wonder sure but it is impossible to get on Diety

I would actually rank Sydney Opera House higher on the list. I note that you have Hubble Telescope high up for accelerating a Science victory but the Sydney Opera House is sort of does the same thing to accelerate a cultural victory. I find it quite useful but again if you are really in the lead with tourism you probably don't need it but it can certainly make a difference.

 

[adcarrymaokai]

Notre Dame I would put further down - its a great Wonder sure but it is impossible to get on Diety.

Chichen Itza is possible to get on Deity with Liberty finisher GE. Notre Dame, to me, is in the same boat as the GL. I actually got the GL once on Deity, but I have never built Notre Dame ever in my life. Chichen Itza is also possible because Civil Service requires Writing, but Physics takes the same number of techs without Writing. I simply don't know who can get there in time. Babylon with Writing detour? The Maya?