[BNW] Issues with Gold and Happiness

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by wioneo, Jul 12, 2013.

  1. wioneo

    wioneo King

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2006
    Messages:
    752
    I am loving the new combat system (of 5 vs. 4), but I cannot at all wrap my head around managing economies.

    It seems like buying units/buildings for gold needs to be done quite often, but I have been having serious issues generating it. I looked around for guides, and they seem to be based around lump sum trading with the AI. This has apparently been removed with BNW.

    It also seems like the Civilopedia is lying to me, and that rivers do not generate gold. Connecting cities seems to only net around 1 or 2 around pop 7 while costing dozens of worker turns for non-coastal cities.
    The caravans giving about 6-8 per turns seem to help (do cargo ships give more?), but they are (understandably) limited heavily.
    AI's are only willing to give 5-6 GPT for resources.
    The new stand-in for cottages, trading posts, come around in the medieval era, so I cannot imagine that these are the basis of economies.

    On the side of happiness, I love the combat system, but it seems like actually fighting a war is extremely impractical. Capturing just a single city as a puppet seems to have given me a permanent -4. I'm assuming that keeping cities will give me more, but I just burned everything else and was greeted with barbarians appearing throughout my country. We were alone on the continent so noone saw the genocide, but do other Civs normally complain when you burn down several cities? I also see that I am forced to spare capitol cities, so that is a minimum permanent loss of 4 each.

    How do people fight this? In my game I only had 7 cities (and the puppet), and with a colliseum+circus in every city as well as 8 luxuries, I have been steadily at -8 happiness for ages. Is the trick to just starve people? I can only see capitols thanks to embassies, but it appears like the AIs all have 13-17 pop while I cannot sustain 6-9. I know that I must be mishandling the policy and faith systems, but this seems like I am doing something critically wrong.
     
  2. Monthar

    Monthar Deity

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2004
    Messages:
    2,057
    Location:
    Elmendorf, Tx
    Yes, sea trade routes give more than land trade routes.

    As for the small amount of gold from connecting your cities with roads, don't bother with the roads in the early game. The internal trade route gold is not going to cover the cost of the roads themselves. The income from linking your cities via roads/harbors, is based mostly on the population of the capital. Unlike Civ 4, you don't need a road to your resources to connect them. You only need to build the improvement on the resource. Unless you have the Inca DLC and are playing as the Inca, because their roads don't cost anything on hills and only cost half on flat lands.

    In BNW, don't build cities on top of luxuries like all the vanilla and G&K guides suggest. While that does connect them instantly, you lose out on the extra gold from having the improvement built on them.

    You can trade luxuries to the AI for GPT without a DoF. If you ask what they'll give they'll offer 5 GPT. However, I found that they will actually give you 6 GPT for luxuries if you ask them if that deal will work for them and they're friendly. Sure that only come out to 180 gold over the 30 turns of the deal on standard speed.

    With a DoF you can of course sell the luxuries for a lump sum of 240 gold.

    The AI will always trade one of their duplicate luxuries for either a luxury or 5 strategic resources. Unless you need the strategic resources right away go ahead and trade them. The bonus to trading them is the AI will build units using them, then if you go to war with that AI, they will likely end up with the strategic resource penalty which is -50% attack/defense strength.

    Don't build too many cities and your happiness will be just fine. Once you start getting some of the policies that boost happiness and the happiness building you can expand or grow more.

    Don't build every building in every city. Only build those you absolutely need.

    Edit: Each luxury gives 4 global happiness, but only for the first copy of that luxury. Global happiness is always there regardless of population. So if you have 2 sources of gold with mines on them you'll only get 4 happiness. Happiness buildings provide 2 local happiness each, which means if you have a coliseum and circus in each city you'll only get the 4 happiness if that city has a population of 4 or more. If the population is only 3, you'll only get 3 happiness instead of the full 4.

    Each new city you build adds a base per city unhappiness as well as the per pop unhappiness. I think it's 2 for the city and 1 for the initial 1 pop of the new city. So the rule of thumb is only settle a new city if it provides a luxury you don't yet have. The starting location for most games usually provided the capital with 2 types of luxury.

    Another thing you can do, is complete quests for the City States to get them to ally status, provided the CS has a luxury you don't have.
     
  3. _invy_

    _invy_ Warlord

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2008
    Messages:
    146
    Location:
    Bosnia
    Lump sum gold trading is not removed, you just need to be friends with AI. Make a few friends with AI and play nicely and you can get lump sumps that waa. Don't backstab people to ruin your reputation.

    Rivers improve trade route gold gpt by 25%, sea trade routes are 100% (double) improved. Prioritize technologies that give extra trade routes, build improvements that improve trade routes, markets etc to get more gold.

    Happiness is another interesting topic. In Civ 5 you don't really need many cities and if you want to spread a lot you need to plan well. The most obvious steps are to choose policies (Liberty for example - if you plan to have a lot of cities, Order later on) and religion to improve your happiness. Choose a civ with extra happy bonuses.

    When fighting you should keep only cities that have resources that you don't have, or nice wonders, or are very good cities otherwise. You also don't want your puppets to grow really big - thats why you should cottage all farms to stop them growing. Puppets eat your happiness and that limits your best cities to grow more.

    And lastly, if you attack civs and burn cities, expect them to be angry. Some leaders don't mind you razing cities, but most will not be happy.

    Another way
     
  4. wioneo

    wioneo King

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2006
    Messages:
    752
    Thank you for your help. Is there any way to figure out which city will be the best base for sea/land caravans without wasting a turn rebasing them?

     
  5. _invy_

    _invy_ Warlord

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2008
    Messages:
    146
    Location:
    Bosnia
    Local happiness basically means happy faces are only for that city where the building was built. You cannot build a Circus in 1 pop city and get 2 happy faces, which would allow you to grow 1 pop in some other city - that is the purpose of this limitation as I see it. What the cities complain about hm.. about global happiness basically, but it can be fixed by building buildings in cities with enough population.

    You got that right about trade routes. As far as I know, main benefit of mountains is option of building Observatories which is +50% science, and thats quite a lot. Mountains are also obligatory for building some wonders.

    About puppets: starving puppets to some level to save happiness is a good idea. Puppets are always set to Gold focus in city screen, that's why they choose to work gold tiles - and that's why we cottage/trade post everything. They can't produce units units but they do produce buildings. They focus building gold producing buildings (Markets, Mints, Banks..) - more reason to build trade posts, but also waste some production and time building mostly useless defensive buildings (Walls, Castles etc).

    edit: most valued trade routes: not sure about that yet - there's popup on trade route icons which explains what influences gpt values for trade routes - that should be analyzed better to figure out which cities are good for trading.
     
  6. Monthar

    Monthar Deity

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2004
    Messages:
    2,057
    Location:
    Elmendorf, Tx
    Here are some tips for capturing cities.
    • Use ranged/siege units to bombard the city down to no health left then take the city with a unit that can move after attacking and has enough moves to immediately leave the city.
    • Let the AI retake the city then capture it again and repeat this until the city is down to a population level your happiness can support. Especially if you intend to raze the city. See the next point.
    • Every time a city is captured it loses half its population, all of its cultural buildings and some of the non-cultural buildings.
    • If you plan to puppet the city, pillage all the farms before you capture it. This serves 3 purposes.
      1. Pillaging heals your units in G&K and BNW.
      2. Pillaging gives you some cash.
      3. If you intend to to leave the city as a puppet, you'll want to put trade posts where those farms are and pillaging them before capture means the city won't regrow the lost population as fast, giving your workers more time to finish all the trade posts.

    Another good source of cash in the early game is demanding tribute from the city states.
     
  7. Jaaboo

    Jaaboo Prince

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2008
    Messages:
    485
    Yeah if you get lucky with an upgrade ruin and upgrade your warrior to a spear, or get a fast scout out, you'll have a high military score and you'll usually be able to extort from a few city states early on. This can be very powerful, I've found; I used to not be such a bully, but there's literally no downside to extorting 55g from city states you find in the opening turns if nobody's protecting them. The diplomatic hits are probably not worth it if you extort from a protected CS though.

    But just meeting two CS's first and being able to extort from them, that's 85g per (30 for first contact, 55g from tribute) so a sold 170 gold for nothing. That plus your palace gold can finance an early worker if you have tiles worth updating, an early building like a granary, an archer (especially so if you're Maya), or can give you a head start on buying your first caravan/cargo ship.

    A lot of the early guides (especially that of the Tradition Opener thread) are probably not going to be as relevant. It's not QUITE as key to get your lux tiles improved, and probably more important to get your strategics revealed & improved, especially since AH gives a trade route now. Those trade routes start small-ish but can get big fast, especially those of Portugal, Morocco & Venice. Once you get a Caravansary or Harbor in your capital (or whatever city you've designated as your trade hub), and add a Market and later the East India Trading Company, those trade routes will start making big bucks.

    Finally, if you're having happiness issues, may I humbly suggest Portugal? Have some workers spread across the globe once you hit Navigation and start building those Fretorias.
     
  8. Monthar

    Monthar Deity

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2004
    Messages:
    2,057
    Location:
    Elmendorf, Tx
    The Shoshone pathfinder is a great unit for getting a lot of extorted gold in the early game, because if you pick the option to upgrade the unit, it upgrades to a composite bow instead of an archer like normal scouts. That's a huge boost to your military rating.
     
  9. Jaaboo

    Jaaboo Prince

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2008
    Messages:
    485
    lol wut.

    That's amazing. :goodjob:
     
  10. b7fanatix

    b7fanatix Warlord

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2013
    Messages:
    178
    For a domination victory, you only need the capitol cities of enemy Civilisations. You can let them keep their other cities, or just raze them. That said, i've not managed a domination victory yet..

    Most games i go for a culture or science win. It's maybe easiest to stay completely isolationist here, but that's no fun and sometimes you do get a really intolerable neighbor who just won't stop backstabbing or DoWing. I usually cripple these by capturing a couple of their largest cities and trading it to a Civ i am friends with. Of course, pick your friends wisely, Catherine, Caesar, and Bismark are almost always untrustworthy. In the vanilla game, I've found China to be quite dependable, she won't turn on me no matter how big she gets from all the city feeding.
     
  11. Browd

    Browd Dilettante Administrator

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2012
    Messages:
    11,952
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Rural Vermont
    A couple of Bowfinders in the early game are really powerful, but, like an ordinary scout, the only way to upgrade a Pathfinder is through a ruin, so don't build 4 or 5 Pathfinders expecting to have 4-5 Bowfinders by turn 25-30. You may be able to upgrade a couple of them before the ruins become too scarce, but that will leave you with more Pathfinders than you might really want or need.
     
  12. Monthar

    Monthar Deity

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2004
    Messages:
    2,057
    Location:
    Elmendorf, Tx
    After the first one upgrades you'd have to find three more ruins and the 3rd of them with the 2nd pathfinder to be able to upgrade it as well.

    Keep in mind though that the pathfinder is the same strength as a warrior. It does cost more than a warrior, but it gets to ignore rough terrain and river crossings, so it makes for a decent assistant in an early war. If you're able to get 2 of them upgraded to composite bows fairly early, that might be enough, with a 3rd regular or a warrior, to take a city.

    The other benefit of the pathfinder is you start the game with one instead of a warrior.
     
  13. wioneo

    wioneo King

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2006
    Messages:
    752
    Is there any downside to capturing and then immediately selling (other than making the second Civ stronger)? That sounds like the best thing to do especially for far away cities.

    For wonder cities or other good cities that I want to annex, the courthouse drops them down to 4 unhappiness like a puppet, right?

    Also I'm noticing that this game seems a lot more focused on the individual Civ. I was trying to use Caesar, because he seems to have the least amount of changes if you avoid a praetlegion war, so that I could learn more features without the special ones seeming better than they really are.

    EDIT: Also I was trying to watch how my only neighbour on the continent, Theodora, was expanding and what not to get an idea of how the game worked. She only had 2 cities and maybe 5 or so total units around 1300 when I killed her (prince difficulty), and she was at the bottom of the scoreboard, so I assume this was not normal. Does Theodora just suck in general?

    Also is it possible to tell if other Civs have met each other or how they feel about a particular other Civ? I see the "friends with x" or "publicly denounced y," on a few, but most are blank.

    EDIT:: What can I do to increase my chances of them accepting a declaration of friendship? Also is it possible to know how they will answer beforehand, because it seems like attempting one locks it down as no for a long time. It is very annoying to have a "neutral" Civ with only green modifiers refuse to give even 1 gpt for a luxury.
     
  14. Mercure

    Mercure Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2013
    Messages:
    9
    This is my big down side on BNW, when i try to go for some early agression my economie just crash and i don't get anything good from that.
     
  15. Falconiano

    Falconiano Prince

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2013
    Messages:
    433
    Location:
    Italy
    True.
    If you have no early trade partner (say you have 1 neighbor like sweden and he wants war) massing archers will get you broke, yet you must do it since the AI will mass armies.

    With Poland you can kind of save yourself by building stable/trading post, same with China and paper makers... if you have a civ with no goldmaking abilities you're in bad luck tho.
     
  16. melange82

    melange82 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2012
    Messages:
    3
    Does the 25% trade route bonus only apply to cities on a river, or does a lake count as well?
     
  17. King_Course

    King_Course Prince

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2010
    Messages:
    465
    I don't think it is feasible to race for NC and then straight to education. When you have philosophy, it's a good idea to amass all the early techs that only take a few turns. As you are building everything, getting construction, and Circus Maximus for example, is well worth it. This will help you keep growing which is what's important I think.

    It's just not so much of a slingshot game anymore. You got to hang in there, accept you'll have to deal with happiness in due time. Love horses more than you ever did.
     
  18. Monthar

    Monthar Deity

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2004
    Messages:
    2,057
    Location:
    Elmendorf, Tx
    Keep in mind you can run trade routes to the CS's in the early game if you want to go conquer your neighbor. Just make sure the routes don't pass near or thru your target's area.
     

Share This Page