[BNW] Order policies and going wide

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Cromagnus, Sep 11, 2013.

  1. Cromagnus

    Cromagnus Deity

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    So, it's clear that rapid expansion is much harder than it used to be, and it seems to me that the policies in Order just come too late to be of use.

    I've done some faith-based ICS with Dido on Archipelago, because the free harbor is valuable even before Idealogy. Yes, it got ridiculous at the end, but I honestly felt like it was a sub-optimal approach. I feel like I would have been better off building 1-4 cities and turtling, or going all-out conquest, rather than trying to build cities. And on Pangaea, good luck!

    Case in point: Resettlement (Cities start with 3 extra population) is a 2nd tier order policy that is *only* useful when building new cities, and chances are you'll need to grab some of the happiness policies first before that would be of use. And heck, realistically, you'll want Five-Year Plan, Party Leadership and Worker's Faculties first to benefit your existing cities, which are all 2nd-tier policies.

    It just seems to me that by the time you're in Order, especially 5+ policies into order, you're approaching the endgame. There shouldn't be anywhere left to place a city unless you're placing a garbage city to prep a bombing run on those hard-to-reach capitals. Normally I would just cap an undefended small city nearby (to minimize unhappiness) but it would certainly be less unhappiness to plant one, but that means lugging a settler all the way out there. I just don't buy it.

    About the only use I can think of for the per-city policies of Order is for capturing every city along your way during conquest, and really, it feels like there are more efficient ways to go about conquest. Even if you stay relatively small until Order and then go on a rampage, capping cities, those cities are in revolt for 5-10 turns, so you still want to only keep the captured cities you absolutely need. Again, if you're being efficient, you don't have time to tend for these cities, you need to move on before they tech destroyers/etc.!

    I could see using this as Austria or Venice... if you waited until Order and then started buying all the city-states, then sure. Otherwise, Order actually seems to be Freedom pt 2... it benefits small empires as much as large, because the tourism, science, happiness and conquest policies all being more useful than the "per-city" ones.

    I just played an Archipelago game with Polynesia where I basically stayed really small, focusing on tech, until frigates, and then I went on a rampage, and the happiness from Freedom was more than sufficient. I didn't need my captured cities to be productive, I basically just ignored them after capture. I only needed enough happiness to keep capitals.

    Conclusion: If you have the tech and culture to be this far into Order, you don't need more cities! So, why not focus on the policies that directly aid victory conditions... +tourism, +science, Worker's Faculties, etc.

    Anyone disagree? Has anyone found an approach that makes it worth going wide post-Order? (And not just juicy capitals!)
     
  2. Cromagnus

    Cromagnus Deity

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    One more point of evidence as to why the "wide" policies of Order are broken: Iron Curtain. You only get the free courthouse if you immediately annex upon capture. At least that's what I noticed. When I annexed later I didn't get one. And what's the point of immediately annexing? The city is in revolt and can't do anything useful! You can't even rush buy. It's just slowing down social policies unnecessarily.

    I guess this reduces unhappiness and allows you to immediately assign specialists? But do they even do anything? I think the #1 thing the next patch needs to address is making it so that going wide isn't quite so nerfed. It's fine that it was nerfed somewhat, but they went too far in my opinion.
     
  3. bonafide11

    bonafide11 Worker

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    Well, I think Freedom is a superior Ideology to Order for many reasons, but mostly it just comes down to being tall is superior to being wide.
     
  4. chazzycat

    chazzycat Deity

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    pretty much agree with you...the constraint to going wide is early happiness, not late happiness. Resettlement seems pretty much useless. Bring back ceremonial burial!
     
  5. Cromagnus

    Cromagnus Deity

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    Resettlement was useful for me exactly once, when Caesar razed a major city to the ground on another continent, leaving a huge gap in the culture boundaries. I saw the gap, bought Resettlement when my next policy came up, and plunked something down in there. But, the question is, did I need it? It had some aluminum, but I didn't need more. At that stage of the game, you rarely need to get a city up fast unless something has gone horribly wrong.

    I imagine it could play a bigger role in multiplayer, if things were closely matched in the endgame. But yeah, right now it's like, the policy you take right before you beat the game because you have every other policy you want. :p

    I use Order as often as Liberty when I go tall right now, and that just seems broken. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate that all three idealogies have flexibility built in so that you can win multiple victory conditions and adjust strategy as the game progresses, but they definitely need to address "wide" in the patch. There isn't enough happiness in Exploration, Honor or Commerce to get you through until Order. Maybe in Patronage, but that feels wrong.
     
  6. Johnpecan

    Johnpecan Warlord

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    Agree with the sentiment of the thread.

    IMO, the best thing Civ4 did over Civ5 was have money be the primary constraint to hyper expansion instead of like in Civ5, happiness. In Civ4 it felt more natural and had much better gameplay. It is probably Civ4's strongest point compared to Civ5.
     
  7. manu-fan

    manu-fan Emperor

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    I love Order. I get the +2 happiness from Monuments, and 25% increased GP rate. Then, I get the +1 everything from each city.

    My happiness is about 100 with a massive sprawling empire. I only play on Warlord though.

    Cheers.
     
  8. Winston

    Winston Warlord

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    It is possible to go wide in the early-mid game, you just need to pick up lots of per city happiness bonuses for your policies and religion as well as per city culture.
    If I'm going wide I will try to get the liberty opener, military caste, religious centers, and choral music. This approach worked in GnK and it still works now IMO - if you capture cities, look to quickly set up courthouses too.
    If you do these things you can set up lots of decent cities although you will definitely antagonise rival civs so you need to have decent defences too.
    The science penalty is pretty steep if you don't try to develop cities so you should be trying to get those unis and scientists up quickly - spies, trade routes and messenger of the gods all help too.
     
  9. PostConsumerWat

    PostConsumerWat Chieftain

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    I've been trying to play the different ideologies, but I tend to gravitate to freedom... having trouble finding the niche for other ideologies.
     

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