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[BNW] Why liberty at all?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by KiltedCow, Aug 27, 2013.

  1. Vidszhite

    Vidszhite Prince

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    90% of my games, I go Liberty, but it doesn't really matter, I have had equal amounts of success with Liberty and Tradition. The only time I really go Tradition is if there's definitely less than 4 good city spots nearby, although if I discover some resources in other places late game, Liberty has an easier time settling them, since new cities get +1 hammer and don't increase the social policy cost that much.
     
  2. Ninakoru

    Ninakoru A deity on Emperor

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    With the 5% science penalty per city, liberty get a good smash at city spawning, after the 5th city of so, you will have some science pace problems. They should have seen it and give a minor science boost per city to liberty. On standard size maps tradition is much better. After all, is usual to only settle 4-5 cities in those maps, and there you get the 8 gpt from free monuments and aqueducts, and loads of hammers and time saved.

    Still liberty is a pretty solid starting policy, honor and piety are the loosers here.
     
  3. Sidor1982

    Sidor1982 Warlord

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    My personal opinion:

    Liberty:

    1. When having a Petra game winning location for your second city. Go liberty for the fast settler and GE from liberty finisher for Petra rush buy. On higher diff (Immortal, Deity) you won't be able to hard build Petra in your second city.

    2. When planning to conquer a lot in the late game. Meritocracy gives you a lot of happiness while having a lot of cities, and since unhappiness is usually the main disadvantage of conquers it helps a lot.

    3. When playing a civ, that benefits from ICS strategy (Maya, Ethiopia).

    4. When going for a MoG opening. Early worker and settler will double your early science income and it will snowball from there.

    Tradition:

    1. When planning to have a peaceful game. Quicker growth + additional production of a couple of wonders will give you more than Liberty policies. (Best for basically 50 - 60 % of strategies in BNW)

    2. When next to a aggressive neighbour. Oligarchy will provide additional defense + quickly growing cities will have a high production to quickly get a couple of defensive units and Great Wall.

    I will also add the benefits of going other ancient policy trees:

    Piety:

    1. When going for strong religion (for example with Sacred Sites culture game)

    Honor:

    Seriously?
     
  4. Bostock

    Bostock King

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    MoG opening? I thought I was good at Civ acronyms but I am failing here...
     
  5. WarIsPeace

    WarIsPeace Chieftain

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    Messenger of the Gods (religious bonus), I think.
     
  6. Moriarte

    Moriarte Immortal

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    The thread you refer to has domination as a goal, so, it's about games with a lot more than 5 cities.

    For science/diplo - tradition is the tree. For domination - tradition lags behind, as it lacks representation and fast workers (and pyramids). Liberty becomes even more useful in large/huge map domination/cultural games.
     
  7. Buccaneer

    Buccaneer Deity

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    or in your capital, at times.
     
  8. Asgrahim

    Asgrahim Chieftain

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    I usually only take liberty if I'm going early domination or if I do a Tradition+Liberty start as Poland.
     
  9. adwcta

    adwcta King

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    How the heck can you finish Liberty on Immortal/Deity before Petra's gone? Do you go and get drama before currency?

    I've been getting Liberty to work for me on Immortal (really no need for more than 5 cities for Liberty to start feeling as good as Tradition; where tradition has game-long growth, liberty has game-long hammers and culture), in some cases arguably better than tradition. The starts are obviously better, and the endgame is better if you war or island expand at all in the mid/late game, but that early/mid period pre-ideologies really does hurt for Liberty. You pretty much NEED a second happiness bonus before Rationalism, so unless you're lucky enough to have religion or 4/5 coastal cities and go Exploration, it's going to delay Rationalism to go that far down Patronage.

    You end up staying behind in tech for longer, so while PT is still possible on Immortal, I'm sensing it won't be on Deity. Maybe if you go Patronage for the science.... I'm still working on it. I don't think I war enough to really make Liberty worth it for me on Deity.

    The BEST part of Liberty is its ability salvage a bad starting location. I'm trying to get to a point where I can decide based on the start whether to go Liberty/Tradition (first 25 turns), instead of having my mind made up before I start the game.
     
  10. Moriarte

    Moriarte Immortal

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    I'd rather go for GE --> Oracle for consulates, instead of Petra, any day of the week. That pretty much solves all mid game food/culture/happiness drawbacks, while going liberty.

    I also experimented with free settler --> free worker, consulates, finish liberty and it's fairly strong. The only problem with that strat. is that it's not available in every single game. Got to have 1-2 early cultural CS allies and/or strong cultural pantheon to pull that one off and still finish liberty around t.100. Still, any reasonable time delay is compensated by consulates. I even had a case of not finishing liberty following the scheme above. Later, when i expanded beyond 10 cities (war) i did pick meritocracy finisher to rush Eiffel with GE and went for cultural.

    Has anyone tried something similar with tradition?
     
  11. Lunco

    Lunco Chieftain

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    Yeah, I'd also like to know how to get enough culture to finish a whole tree before it's gone. Turn 100 full policy?
     
  12. evilcat

    evilcat Warlord

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    Liberty is good when:
    - You plan warmongering. Since this is the point when you use all this per city bonuses.
    - Religious game. Since religion scales good with number of city. It dosnt matter if you plan to collective rule -> Piety. Or something with Ethiopia, Celts.

    However im not sure if thise strategies are really all that strong. For religion it is more important to have good pantheon/UA than going into Piety. And in Piety religious tolerance, theocracy and finisher are all just unimpresive. Jesuite education is really cool, but taking 5 policies just to fast buy science buildings?

    Tradicion bonuses are just massive, that taking anything else is not better, but at best "also works".
     
  13. Sidor1982

    Sidor1982 Warlord

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    If the AI's have the possibility to get Petra in their capitols it might be circumstantial, I agree. Otherwise it's not a problem. I usually go for a hard build Oracle in the capitol and library in the second city while researching Currency. Then use the GE to rush Petra in the second city and build NC in the capitol. Additionally the opening buildings in both cities are monuments and if possible give gold/do quests for cultural CS. The downside of this build is the lack of defensive units, but you usually have to take some risk to get higher benfits (or don't go for it if close neighbours are aggressive/ likely to DoW early).
     
  14. Tich

    Tich Prince

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    Everyone says that "lack of defensive units" is a weakness of their build but like how often does it actually fail? The AIs are tamer than kittens as of BnW. The only one who consistently attack early on are like Zulu, Assyria, Mongols, Montezuma and Huns. Everyone else wait until like turn 120 which is plenty of time to build your Oracle + NC and get some defense. Obviously if you're forward expanding on an agressive AI you just need to plant yourself on a hill and like behind a river or something. Have money to rush buy walls or just build Library -> Walls and forgo the early Granary. Buy an Archer if you get DOWed since they're cheap. No turn 60 war is going to beat walls + archer if your city is on a hill. Even though you could lose the base in theory you can always DOF the AI before they take the city. Assuming they didn't DOP after like ~6 turns, sure, you'd lose, but they always DOP.

    I too have been rushing Oracle into NC on Deity. I play it different though. I finish Tradition and grab Consulates then go Rationalism. Obviously your Rationalism is a bit delayed but I'm more than happy to pop my Writers to get Secularism at a decent pace. Consulates doubles your culture and faith output and I mean the happiness and food is always welcome.
     
  15. Buccaneer

    Buccaneer Deity

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    and Japan and Shoshone...or more civs if you are a sitting, lame duck.
     
  16. Lunco

    Lunco Chieftain

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    Do you get Writer's guild after you finish the University?
     
  17. kb27787

    kb27787 Deity

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    and Dido (with her elephants) I hate her... she will DoW you turn 40 if she wants to (a hint is that she took honor) on immortal+ 5 elephants with a bunch of promotions is enough to screw your CB line unless they have really good terrain.
     
  18. budweiser

    budweiser King of the Beers

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    My current opinion:

    tradition: multiple copies of the same luxury in the start zone
    liberty: multiple luxuries in the start zone

    The growth is pretty much a myth, try the same start each way and see the difference. It wont be much. Liberty for war is also wrong unless you annex, puppets dont get the same benefits as regular cities.
     
  19. Tich

    Tich Prince

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    Never seen any of these civs do a meaningful DOW in any of my games and I've definitely started near Carthage a lot. The difference between "aggressive" and "hyper-aggressive" is big in my mind. Any civ can fight you but with proper play you should be able to avoid wars with basically everyone except a select few.
     
  20. Buccaneer

    Buccaneer Deity

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    Forgot about Carthage. I saw a large Carthage army at T40 heading towards Spain to my east (in G&K). She then abruptly turned around and ran at me. Didn't stand a chance.
     

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