bombed back to the stone age

[aeldrik]

Who doesn't know this, you are behind in techs, the AI discovers flight even only 10 turns before you, and starts bombing you back to the map you started on 2000 years earlier, and what can you do? beg for peace, try to steal the tech, or just wait and die....
This is bad, and I don't understand why it hasn't been fixed for Conquest. It would already be enough to change the required tech for Bombers from Flight to Advanced flight.
THis would be
1/ more logical: fighters appeared in WW1, Bombers in the 1930's (spanish civil war), so how come the same tech is required in the game for both??
2/ make advanced flight worth researching, I just finished a COnquest game, and no one researched it, you don't need, and get the more advanced paratroopers not all too much later.....

 

[barbu1977]

I agree with you 100%

 

[Chieftess]

hmm, I usually win before the AI even gets bombers... Try putting fighters on air superiority at your borders. In C3C, there's the added FLAK and Mobile SAM AA units.

 

[aeldrik]

@ Chieftess: I don't believe you'll win before the AI gets bombers while playing Monarch and up, or maybe you do, bust most of us don't...
about the fighters and Flak, I'm not sure you read it right, the problem is that you don't have them.... to say it short, one should have fighters before bombers, allowing for a player lacking slightly behing not to be bombed by bombers without any defense possibility,... flaks and fighter should come with flight, bombers with advanced flight, making the time in between the "last chance to catch up"

 

[Chieftess]

It's very possible to win before the AI even gets to bombers, even on emperor level (huge map). It requires tons of micromanagement and planning. Take a look at BamSpeedy's "Beyond Sid" in the stories and tales forum. The AI doesn't even have flight yet - not even close.

 

[aeldrik]

still, most of us don't win by then. Also, I like to play more then just the first technological third of the game... Anyway, I think you are missing the point I was trying to make....

PS: as fun as a lot of mircormanagement and Bamspeedy's game sound to me, I prefer playing at a lower level, and have fun competing for wonders,....

 

[dojoboy]

Originally posted by aeldrik
Who doesn't know this, you are behind in techs, the AI discovers flight even only 10 turns before you, and starts bombing you back to the map you started on 2000 years earlier, and what can you do? beg for peace, try to steal the tech, or just wait and die....
This is bad, and I don't understand why it hasn't been fixed for Conquest. It would already be enough to change the required tech for Bombers from Flight to Advanced flight.
THis would be
1/ more logical: fighters appeared in WW1, Bombers in the 1930's (spanish civil war), so how come the same tech is required in the game for both??
2/ make advanced flight worth researching, I just finished a COnquest game, and no one researched it, you don't need, and get the more advanced paratroopers not all too much later.....

First off, if a civ reaches a key tech before you, they should be able to decimate you. This doesn't need fixing, its realistic. Second, I do like your idea of making bombers available through Advanced Flight in regards to realism. But, still, if the AI beats you to it, the same thing could happen.

 

[jeremiahrounds]

im kind of proud of the AI.

I really have very little problem with stuff as long as the AI does it too.

If you look at my laundry list of stuff I want changed its stuff the AI doesnt use effectively.

To be honest though ive never noticed the AI bomb into the stone age but thats exactly what i do. rawr~

 

[betazed]

Hmmm.... I have never seen the AI bomb me to stone age at any level. Also, I have never bombed the AI to stone age at any level. Too slow. In lesser turns they can be razed and wiped out. But for that you would need artillery instead on bombers (hence my lack of bombers).

IMHO, air power and naval power is truly misrepresented in civ3 owing to the low range and effectiveness they have been given.

Bombers should have longer range and lethal bombardment to be more effective.

 

[aeldrik]

Well, maybe I'm the only one who plays his games to be a challenge in the modern Era, but still, to all of you, pure logic should still recommend allowing bombers later then fighters, just as it has been in reality....

 

[IglooDame]

I agree about naval power being less effective than in real life, which is one of the bigger reasons why I'm looking forward to C3C so much. (Please note that as a former naval officer I'm heavily biased, though.) I also agree that bombers should be an Advanced Flight tech result, but I haven't seen airpower-only campaigns reduce ground force fighting strength by much more than half in even in the last 20 years, so I don't think lethal air bombardment of land forces is realistic.

 

[The Last Conformist]

Actually, Bombers and Fighters coming available simultanouesly makes a decent lot of sense, because bombers (along with recognizance aircraft) is the reason fighters where developed at all. There where bombers already in WWI, only a couple of years after aircraft was used in war at all.

But if the AI's able to build a decent bomber fleet and return you to the stone age in ten turns, it sounds like you've got water over your head bombers or not; its productive capacity must be truly impressive.

Be happy it didn't start systematically redlining your city defenders and follow up with Tank attacks instead.

 

[aeldrik]

What you call "Bombers" in WW1 were fighters with a second person throwing down explosive charges, the first "real" bombardements were done by the germans in Spain, more than 20 years after the first planes were used for combat...
If you have a common border with a more advanced civ, let's say it researches Flight 10 turns before you can do it, it means this civ has enough time to build a few bombers 10-20 and destroy your entire infrastructre within its range without you beeig able to do anything about it

What I think is not working is this: It doesn't matter how big the advance of the AI is, for land or sea units, you always have a way of defending yourself, even if only with Pikeman against tanks, but when one player has Flight, he has a weapon against which you can't do anything....

 

[betazed]

Originally posted by IglooDude
but I haven't seen airpower-only campaigns reduce ground force fighting strength by much more than half in even in the last 20 years, so I don't think lethal air bombardment of land forces is realistic.

really....

What about the first israel-Arab war "The six day war". Didn't the Israeli air forces take out all of Egyptian air force most of the Egyption ground forces in Sinai, or is my military history abysmally bad.

Also what about Gulf war 1? Didn't air power play a crucial role in that one too and significantly reduce the enemy ground forces and soften them up?

As for the navy, it had been used in most of its history to run blockades and not to engage in active combat.

Only after the coming of the concept of a carrier group and theater defense did the navy become actively engaged in fighting a war.

Obviously, these are my personal conclusions and someone with more knowledge in military history can shed some light and elaborate.

 

[dexters]

Sounds to me like someone isn't happy that the AI is too good. For most of us, it's making threads to help improve the AI and we have this thread asking the designers to move units back so they won't get bombed.

As someone said, if that get that tech before you do, you're in the same position.

I find this ironic.

 

[Lyonesse]

I'd have to agree with both sides here...if I have an advanced unit before the AI too bad, I'm gonna use it! So its only fair that the AI be able to do the same to me.
As for whether or not the bomber should be held off until Advanced Flight...well that would make sense (if you're after "reality", but on that note...the only place I've seen a "Horsemen" take on a Tank was in "Indiana Jones: The Last Crusade)...but if that change doesn't happen...IMHO, it isn't a HUGE factor to worry about.

 

[Atotarho]

If the AI is ahead of you and bombers are raining death and destruction from the heavens then there is really only one thing you can do.

Get a fist full of attacking units and charge the sucker. Wipe out the towns with the bombers, grab the tech off him and give him some back.

You can move the bombers back a couple of techs to make it more realistic but that isnt going to get you there any faster and you are still going to be in trouble. Find an offensive startegy that will negate his bombers, that is what the game is all about.

 

[aeldrik]

@ Atotarho: sorry, but this game just isn't about wars and offensive strategie. If you really only see the game that way, you're missing out to most of it...

to all, since you all seem to find this game so easy, I'm sending out a challenge for all of you speaking out here to send me a saved game shorlty before victory of a game on a huge pangea Map at at least Demigod level with min 10 PC oponents (Random Oponents) and Barbarians on Raging level (which is what I usually play when it happens to me).....

 

[betazed]

Originally posted by aeldrik

to all, since you all seem to find this game so easy, I'm sending out a challenge for all of you speaking out here to send me a saved game shorlty before victory of a game on a huge pangea Map at at least Demigod level with min 10 PC oponents (Random Oponents) and Barbarians on Raging level (which is what I usually play when it happens to me).....

Errr... I guess you have never visited the succession games forum. You will find many examples of your challenge there.

 

[Globetrotter]

IMHO, anything that would make the AI stronger is cool for me. If the AI gets the tech before me, good for him, 'cause if i'd discovered it before the AI, then i'd have done the same to him

But as suggested above, you could still rush towards the AI's nearby cities and seize them. In that way, you'll put enough tiles between your core cities and the AI cities from which attacks can start, that is if you did not destroy all of his bombers by capturing his nearby cities.