Booga games diar..rhea

[boogaboo]

I think you're onto something - when do the game quests get generated and do they get reset when you regenerate a map?? It may be they are all set at the beginning and if you play 100 maps from the same mapfinder run they will all have the same events enabled??

If this is true, it is a serious bug IMHO...

 

[Noble Zarkon]

If this is true, it is a serious bug IMHO...

Don't see why it would be a bug, you are regenerating the map not the entire game - you're keeping the player, AIs and all the other settings so would make sense if the quests etc are all set when the game is regenerated.

I wonder if there's a way to see what's going on in debug mode??

 

[boogaboo]

Don't see why it would be a bug, you are regenerating the map not the entire game - you're keeping the player, AIs and all the other settings so would make sense if the quests etc are all set when the game is regenerated.

I wonder if there's a way to see what's going on in debug mode??

I think Civ4 should generate the quests as it generates the game, but if not, I will explain why it is abuseable :
For small maps, say duel, I can generate hundreds of maps in a batch.
I can then fast-play the first few games until reaching construction and gunpowder (so that both GA quests should be active if they exist).
Then stop making science and pass 200-400 turns (just enter each turn).
This gives plenty of chance to activate the quests (I think around 90%).
If you see a GA quest active, you now know it exists in all other games in the batch.
If not, delete the batch.
Thus, you get batches of verified GA quest games.

It is a bit hard to do (and boring and lame), but it is a possible big abuse.
Again, all of this is only if in fact Mapfinder causes the quests on a batch to be constant.

Note : I actually passed numerous batches as Pacal, but if each batch had the same quests, then it is more probable that I was just unlucky in the batches and not in every game.

"I wonder if there's a way to see what's going on in debug mode??"
A great wonder indeed... I don't know debug mode or the inside of the civ4 code...

 

[Noble Zarkon]

I will explain why it is abuseable

Totally agree it's abuseable just not that it's a bug (if it's done the way we are specualting), a lot of things are abuseable in HOF if you're willing to put the time in!!

I'll see if I can figure it out but won't be in the next week.

 

[boogaboo]

Totally agree it's abuseable just not that it's a bug (if it's done the way we are specualting), a lot of things are abuseable in HOF if you're willing to put the time in!!

I'll see if I can figure it out but won't be in the next week.

No problem and no pressure!
I'm glad you can even do it at all
I will start noticing similarities in batches if they exist.. but I usually either don't find a good game in a ~200-game batch or find ONE. So I doubt I come with epiphanies myself

 

[boogaboo]

A related issue to consider :

If Mapfinder is indeed having the same random quests on each batch --
Are they the random quests of the game I load to start Mapfinder or different each run??

I generally have a save file with the settings I need, and then load it to start Mapfinder.
If all the quests are set by that file, I will get the same quests on every batch... which may finally explain the random quests I never got

 

[iggymnrr]

I think Civ4 should generate the quests as it generates the game, but if not, I will explain why it is abuseable :
For small maps, say duel, I can generate hundreds of maps in a batch.
I can then fast-play the first few games until reaching construction and gunpowder (so that both GA quests should be active if they exist).
Then stop making science and pass 200-400 turns (just enter each turn).
This gives plenty of chance to activate the quests (I think around 90%).
If you see a GA quest active, you now know it exists in all other games in the batch.

It would be sufficient to generate a small handful of maps. Just save the last map as it would retain everything. If testing shows that a batch would have the desired result, load the saved map and then generate 100s or 1000s more maps.

 

[boogaboo]

It would be sufficient to generate a small handful of maps. Just save the last map as it would retain everything. If testing shows that a batch would have the desired result, load the saved map and then generate 100s or 1000s more maps.

Yep. :|

 

[boogaboo]

Updating and thinking -- no records in progress, but testing goes on.
Learned more (and more) about windmills on Highlands, and even considering a move from free market to environmentalism at the end (?).

I have a good strategy with Huayna on Highlands (Duel), but Health and type of seas is a major issue, creating a 3 way choice :
If I take small lakes (5% of land), I have more land but NO fishing at all.
If I take seas (15%), I have specific points with fishing, but also more... sea. So better health and less land.
I'm guessing the middle option - large lakes (10%), which is described as having some sea, might be the best, but I'm struggling to decide.

In any case, I'll need a lot of work to find the right map on Highlands. More than I usually need for Terra, mainly because of the importance of starting locations and more huts.
And although I dislike Huayna to some extent, I'm starting to think this is one of the maps he can still shine.
I'm also taking him and my strategy for him for my new adventures into new maps.

I've looked into Pangea just to be sure... I'm sure. It's too small. By far.
Now I've set my sights to explore "Big and Small".
Mapfinder now in the background.

Long term plan ----
After that, I will still have to check if Archipelago or Fractal are possible for Duel size to know I've covered my map options.
Eventually, I will compare the 3 leaders.
I'm guessing Terra will still be the dominant map, as I can make around 20 huge cities, free astronomy, wonderful mining co....
About the leaders, although I'm building a strategy to somewhat fit each, I'm guessing Huayna will NOT be my final choice.
Pacal and Darius seem better to me. Still tight.

When I have the leader+map combo just right, it should be right for any difficulty from Noble and above.
Then, I will implement it!!! Conquer HoF slots with records that will stand the test of time!!!

Then, I can go sleep. Or can I?!

 

[boogaboo]

Had my first exploration of Big and Small.
Now it looks like there are 3 competing "sea worlds" - Terra, Big and Small, and Archipelago.
But! Archipelago seems the worst choice in advance, because I can't have my big starting cities on water and build... without trees....

So that leaves 2 -
Terra has nearly free Astronomy and a lot of land space.
With "Big and Small", the "Big" continent has room for only 4-5 cities, but the many islands can be exploited both domination-wise and trade-harbor-wise.

So what can I do with "Big and Small"?
I was asking myself how do I build a spaceship with only a few cities able to build good.
There is a solution I will try - Mining Co.
It seems that the abundance in resources in both Terra and "Big and Small" make Mining Co. contribute nearly half the construction for a good city at the end. So some coastal cities can build space parts just fine. Slower, but fine.
OTOH, science may be exploding until the end from water tiles with Collosus. Even late astronomy to keep it running.
Gr. Lighthouse is an obvious one too.

In short, I'm going to hardcore "Big and Small".
First with Huayna to see if he can build all the wonders I'm thinking of...

 

[boogaboo]

Oh, and don't say I don't share my plans!
Here's the initial layout for Big and Small With lots of wonders... it usually changes a bit during play.

Edit : Philosophy is tentative...
I don't need nationalism that early, but sometimes Musa gets it with his Scientist.
If he doesn't, I may want that extra monestary for the 10%, or delay it.

 

[Pangaea]

Haven't followed this thread, but what exactly is your goal with this exploration of small (tiny?) maps and Terra, Big & Small etc mapscripts? Fastest space?

What is nice with corporations on small maps is that you need much fewer resources to gain pretty big bonuses.

 

[boogaboo]

Haven't followed this thread, but what exactly is your goal with this exploration of small (tiny?) maps and Terra, Big & Small etc mapscripts? Fastest space?

What is nice with corporations on small maps is that you need much fewer resources to gain pretty big bonuses.

The mission is fastest space on Duel maps
I know that the corporations are huge on Duel. That's why I abandoned State Property on Duel

 

[boogaboo]

Ok, had my Big and Small tests.. wow. It's almost like terra, compressed.
Aside from Archipelago, which I doubt would do it, terra and Big_and_small seem to me the best maps to play space on Duel.

Big and Small has some advantages (starting with a LOT of resources + tiny islands) and disadvantages (much smaller land mass).
I found that going for astronomy from a hut, even on Terra, is NOT the way to go. I would gain much more from doing and keeping Colossus on both maps (until I need to {colonize America on Terra} or {just before Sci.Meth. on Big and Small})

So :
1. Huayna - may be suited for all the wonders I'm exploiting and will now be checked on both maps.
2. Darius - better suited for Terra, but both maps should be checked too.
3. Pacal - My sweetheart. Can master both.

The Huayna experiment (#1) can tell me a lot about #2 and #3.
If Huayna is better on Terra --> No point of testing Darius on Big and Small.

The latest game also showed my that our Mapfinder maps keep the quests, which is just.... :|
So, I currently have a save which proved to have the sports league GA.. also "Master BlackSmith" and "Holy mountain" but also have slave revolts, hurricanes and other bad quests.

I can start other games and dig into the quests... so lame but possible
For now, I may try this again on further batches of the same quests... and see what game I can produce

Huayna + Big and Small here I come!

EDIT : Attached revised strategy with info from last game. Don't get used to this! I will keep some strategy for the X day hombre!

 

[iggymnrr]

Nice flow chart.

 

[boogaboo]

That was shorter than expected.
Big and small is nice, but Terra outdoes it in every way.
There is too little land for the end game science to run fast. Hard start due to nearly no goody huts.
The dense resources give a stable start, but then it becomes impossible to grow on.

Terra it is. I may do a further Highlands-windmills test after Terra, but I think Terra is the solution.
For Huayna. Then Darius.
I'm guessing one of them will be the final record.
Pacal after them because I did not use Collosus and some other tricks I've learned, not to talk about quests.. :O

 

[iggymnrr]

Duel highlands may be a bit short on food. Incidentally, Willem can fit 20 cites with 2-3 border pops on a duel Oasis. All are on the edges so at least the northern coastal cities will get dikes. This may not be that useful.

 

[boogaboo]

Duel highlands may be a bit short on food. Incidentally, Willem can fit 20 cites with 2-3 border pops on a duel Oasis. All are on the edges so at least the northern coastal cities will get dikes. This may not be that useful.

That's also a way of doing it, but on Terra, those 20 cities are where I want, most get sushi and can explode culturally (into the sea), and become huge cities (most nearly touching 30 pop) for the end part. Plus all the sea trade routes...

I don't think pushing cities in Duel/Oasis can be better than placing them on Terra

 

[boogaboo]

Played a trial game, which was ok, but mainly it raised one important question :
When completing a quest the same turn it expires (by a certain tech) - will the quest be completed?

I ask because I do Taj for a GA the same turn I discover Railroad.
The Guns butter quest requires Taj but gets obsolete by discovering Railroad, so --
I know I can do Taj and the last musketeer in one turn and get the quest completed, but can I also discover railroad that turn and not ruin the quest?

Thanks for any input

 

[boogaboo]

Still trying to find a good game to start, but thinking about 2 questions that can help me find many more :
1. What makes Ghandi decide to pursue Buddhism and not Hinduism?
2. What makes Ghandi decide to make a worker instead of growing to size 2?

I'm eager to conquer him at turn 40 with Buddhism and a worker.
It works many times, but other times I have to bail or lose a few turns.
I'm guessing these are tough questions, and only reading the code will show me how the AI decides, but perhaps you [mighty XXX] know

Booga.