Border - How it is determined

[viktorn]

I would like to know in a little bit more detail, how exactly the shape of the border of your empire is determined.

I am currently near the end of the game and I am experiencing quite an unexpected situation regarding the border of my empire (see attached image). The year is 1842 and the difficulty level is Monarch.

My city of Utica already has a legendary status (51 000 culture, generating 600 culture/turn) while Bibracte has only 33 600 (checked this number in the world builder). How come that the border is so close to me? I would expect it at least somewhere in the middle between the two cities. Actually, the border had been in the middle before, but within the last 100 turns it has started being pushed towards me.

The cultural values of the cities visible on the map is as follows:

Utica 51 000
Carthage 48 000
Hardumentium 15 000

Birbacte 33 600
Tolosa 20 000
Gergovia 26 000

Looking at these numbers, the shape of the border is not logical at all.

Eventually, if there is already a thread already explaining the mechanics behind determining the border shape, can you, please, send me the link?

Thanks.

 

[Tusk]

What is Tolosa's culture? - it seems to me your border pressure problem might be coming from it, not Bibracte, since Bib is too far away. Maybe the two are combining to pressure your borders back?

 

[viktorn]

According to the victory conditions screen, there are only three legendary cities on the map. Two are Egyptian (looks like he is going to win this game by cultural victory). And the third is my Utica. Therefore, I don't think that Tolosa has any significant culture.

BTW, my city of Carthage has another 48 000 culture.

 

[Imrahil91]

I think the culture per turn is more important than the total in BtS than earlier, maybe the Celts are producing culture and/or have the slider high?
good luck trying to raze an Egyptian city if you can

 

[Tusk]

I think the culture per turn is more important than the total in BtS than earlier, maybe the Celts are producing culture and/or have the slider high?
good luck trying to raze an Egyptian city if you can

So therefore it may be possible that Bibracte and Tolosa are TOGETHER producing more culture per turn than Utica, and driving your borders back...

 

[DigitalBoy]

Raw culture is not the only factor in borders. What's more important is culture per turn and how long the tiles have been within reach of your cultural influence. Think of culture as spilling out from the city onto each tile within its cultural reach each turn. A city with low culture/turn can have a solid sieze on its territory even if a much younger city with high culture/turn tries to invade its space because the older city has spilled more total culture onto the tiles since it's been there longer.

If your city of Utica is producing more CPT than the enemy cities, then the tiles next to it should slowly become more and more Carthagian (hover mouse over tile to see cultural influence), granted it may take a while.

 

[thelibra]

My guess is that he's running Artist Specialists out the wazoo, with some kinda culture % modifiers in each city. You might try SE'ing artists in that city, along with popping any other cultural buildings you can get in there. If that doesn't work, spydoom them.

 

[viktorn]

Raw culture is not the only factor in borders. What's more important is culture per turn and how long the tiles have been within reach of your cultural influence. Think of culture as spilling out from the city onto each tile within its cultural reach each turn. A city with low culture/turn can have a solid sieze on its territory even if a much younger city with high culture/turn tries to invade its space because the older city has spilled more total culture onto the tiles since it's been there longer.

If your city of Utica is producing more CPT than the enemy cities, then the tiles next to it should slowly become more and more Carthagian (hover mouse over tile to see cultural influence), granted it may take a while.

That would make sense. But I don't think that it explains this case. Utica is my second city - so it is there long enough. From the very beginning it was supposed to be one of my big cultural cities. I realized the proximity of Celt's capital so I heavily invested in cultural wonders in it.

The border had orginally been somewhere in the middle, but within last 100 turns it started being pushed towards me.

 

[bmarnz]

Maybe celts switched to free speech and is now getting +100% culture.

 

[KMadCandy]

how recent is your map of his territory? there are three tiles to your east that would be legal for him to have a city on, as far as distance from other cities: 3N of Tolosa and then the 2 tiles directly north of that tile too. obviously he could have only one city there, not 3 . it would be a pretty crappy city full of overlap. but that could explain a lot about why you're so culture-crushed. Bibracte is awfully far away to be exerting that much pressure on your city, given that you're producing so much culture on your own.

 

[viktorn]

There aren't any other cities on the map. I checked this in the worldbuilder. Could it be because both Tolosa and Birbacte are producing culture (ie. transforming hammers to culture)?

But anyway, Utica is a legendary city. It should broadcast ist culture far into its neigbourhood. I would expect that it will control at least its fat cross.

 

[jkp1187]

it is my understanding that it isn't the raw culture score of the city that determines borders nor the extent of how far a city's borders have expanded, so much as how many culture points you have "invested" in a given square. Whoever has a plurality of the total culture invested in a square gets control of that square (as long as there's a city nearby whose cultural borders have expanded to encompass that square.) So if you have, for instance, 100 culture points in a square, and the Zulus have 99, and the Persians 101, and as long as there was a Persian city nearby whose culture borders had expanded to include that square, Persia would have control. If there were no such Persian city (because you burned it down for instance,) then (again, as long as the square was covered by the borders of one of your cities,) it would go to your control.

If no one owned a city nearby whose borders had expanded to include control over the square, then no one would control the square, regardless of how many culture points had been 'invested' in it.

Obviously, a legendary city will tend to control more of the nearby squares than a non-legendary city, just because it's been pumping out tons of culture all game long....but that doesn't guarantee that it will control every square in its fat cross, especially if the enemy has been almost as culturally prolific....


I do not know the exact formula determining how many culture points get 'invested' in a certain square...although I think you can see how many points every civ has 'invested' in a given square by using the CHIPOTLE cheat code in the CivilizationIV.ini file....

EDIT: I just saw you mention that Bibracte and Tolosa were both producing culture. That sure isn't helping.

Just curious, did you get Utica up to legendary primarily by Great Artists?

 

[Mesix]

I've also noticed that having troops in a tile affects the culture of that tile. In a recent game, one of my allies fortified troops on my gold mine. Since we had open borders, I was still able to work the tile and get the resource. His troop presence made the influence % that you can see when you mouse over increase in his favor by a small amount each turn.

 

[viktorn]

Just curious, did you get Utica up to legendary primarily by Great Artists?

I must admit that I am not very good at using GPs. Sometimes my strategy works sometimes doesn't. I always reach legendary status by the combination of wonders and other cultural buildings.

In this case there is just one great artist in Utica.

Culture buildings in Utica:
Broadcast tower, Mandir, Confucian Academy, Mosque, Parthenon, 3 monasteries, Shwedagon Paya plus Sistine Chapel in another city giving an extra culture to my Hindu buildings.

 

[KMadCandy]

I must admit that I am not very good at using GPs. Sometimes my strategy works sometimes doesn't. I always reach legendary status by the combination of wonders and other cultural buildings.

In this case there is just one great artist in Utica.

i read "Just curious, did you get Utica up to legendary primarily by Great Artists?" as "was a lot of your total culture built by one-turn great works?" great works are fantastic for the final push of CV, or grabbing land quick and early, or for getting use out of a recently captured city. but they aren't anywhere near as powerful for long-term cultural control of tiles as a slow-and-steady high culture output every turn is.

this thread on culture mechanics will probably be helpful to you. it doesn't directly answer the question in your subject, but it'll give you insight into what factors matter.

 

[jkp1187]

KMad: thanks. That is what I meant.

Once again, you properly interpreted one of those inartfully phrased posts I made from my blackberry....