BOTM 101 -- Final Spoiler

[kcd_swede]

BOTM 101 - Elizabeth vs. Dr.Moreau - Final Spoiler

So how did your game after 1AD go?
Did you acheive your intended victory, switch to something else, or like me do you just wing it and end in the quickest way real life time once you've totally screwed up?
How did it go for the Doctor and his menagerie?


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[Solyaris]

Fun game and nice map!

Thought I would go by the usual; ASAP to military tradition, get 60% of the map covered and then go space, what could possibly go wrong? Got many trades and quickly raced trought the techtree due to the large amount of friendly AI's (most where hindu as Khmer shared it troughtout the world) and aimed for a ~500AD MT. Around 200AD I suddenly realized, I dont have any horses!!! Woops...

Well, need a new plan. Since all but 2 AI's where hindu, and the AP where hindu too, I though why not try a diplomatic victory. 1 of the 2 last AI's where easy to spread hindu too, but I was unsure if the "Island" AI needed to be hindu too for diplomatic victory to be an option. I'm still not sure weather he does or not, but nevertheless I "gave" him a hindu city by setteling an island city with hindu religion which he later occupied and immidiatly converted. Got diplomatic victory in the mid 700AD, 180 000 points. My first diplomatic victory in this series =) (almost always go for space).

Thanks for the game!

 

[kcd_swede]

Fun game and nice map!

Thought I would go by the usual; ASAP to military tradition, get 60% of the map covered and then go space, what could possibly go wrong? Got many trades and quickly raced trought the techtree due to the large amount of friendly AI's (most where hindu as Khmer shared it troughtout the world) and aimed for a ~500AD MT. Around 200AD I suddenly realized, I dont have any horses!!! Woops...

Well, need a new plan. Since all but 2 AI's where hindu, and the AP where hindu too, I though why not try a diplomatic victory. 1 of the 2 last AI's where easy to spread hindu too, but I was unsure if the "Island" AI needed to be hindu too for diplomatic victory to be an option. I'm still not sure weather he does or not, but nevertheless I "gave" him a hindu city by setteling an island city with hindu religion which he later occupied and immidiatly converted. Got diplomatic victory in the mid 700AD, 180 000 points. My first diplomatic victory in this series =) (almost always go for space).

Thanks for the game!

Just curious... who was you opponent in the AP vote (Knmer, I asume)? And what were the vote totals? Did you have to get militant to secure the votes?

 

[Solyaris]

Just curious... who was you opponent in the AP vote (Knmer, I asume)? And what were the vote totals? Did you have to get militant to secure the votes?

Pericles as he built the AP. Total votes around 950, I got about 750 votes (Pericles voted for himself, 2 AIs abstained). Didn't have to go to war to get the votes needed, I did however get alot of +1/2/3 you've shared techologies with us (techologies for gold/map trades). If Khmer had been my main oponent it would have been hard to win as he had higher population count then pericles and where univerally loved by the other AIs

 

[Rusten]

Cultural victory late 1300s.

This game was another (cultural) learning experience for me, I made some new mistakes compared to last time around. My BC game was pretty strong, because I'm more used to it, but my AD game was horrible and rushed (played in 1 session). Embarassing really. But at least it's nice to pick up and learn so much from a single game again. Making mistakes and recognising them is how you improve.

My game:
For some reason decided to tech to democracy to speed up cottage growth amongst other things. Obviously not worth it -- silly idea. Probably never worth it regardless of the circumstances. One thing is all the beakers, but furthermore you can't run caste system and emancipation at the same time. Never again. Huge mistake.

I didn't manage my infrastructure properly and just built the religious stuff randomly without proper thinking. As a result I didn't get cathedrals until super late. I could've managed it better and unlock one cathedral at a time. Build the unlocked one in the culture cities while preparing the next in the others. I just went spread-crazy (4 religions). Important to be more methodical here. Huge mistake.

My 3 cities were getting 1k culture per turn towards the end, but they got to that point much later than they should've. It would be interesting to replay this game from 1 AD. I wonder how many turns I can knock off the victory date now. Probably even a 12xx finish.

In terms of diplomacy all was well as I still had the Khmer and Ottomans locked in a war with Korea (which I started in the BCs). I just pressed end turn many times. Much too carelessly as mentioned previously.

In the end it was a fun game and a good learning experience. Thanks for hosting!

 

[kcd_swede]

@Rusten -
I've made each of those mistakes before. More than once. Still amazing, though...
your fails are way better than most of my successes.

 

[Xcalibrator]

I really enjoyed this game, apart from losing. Pericles got an AP win 500 AD. I still don't understand what happened. AP was built by Mansa 300 AD and he and Peri were the only ones with the full-vote religion (Hindu) with 112 and 126 votes, respectively, out of 298 total. Victory required 223 and Peri got 228. But Sury, with 33 votes, and a different religion, was Peri's opponent, not Mansa! Wha?!!! Yes, Mansa was Friendly with Peri (+8 or 9), but I really don't get it.

I had only 14 votes. If I'd known there was a problem I could have revolted to adopt Hinduism (from No religion) and that would have been just enough, assuming that votes aren't tallied until the end of the turn (right?). I just wasn't paying close enough attention.

On the off chance that something happened that really shouldn't have, I've not played any further, just in case kcd says "Oops, that's not right. You get a mulligan." I did, however, go back one turn to better see what happened and I had to respond to the vote before quitting without saving. I'd like to continue for fun, though. I was just assembling my forces for an assault on the Island!

In any case, thanks for the lovely land kcd, and thanks to Lymo and Rusten for your advice on settling. I obviously didn't play as well as you but I played a better game (apart from the losing) than I usually do.

Edit: I now understand what happened. Mansa was the AP Resident but he was not the AP Owner. Sury was the AP builder=Owner and was therefore always a candidate for Religious Victory. Peri was a full member and had the most votes to cast so he was the other candidate. Mansa just voted for his buddy, Peri, and I lost. Nothing to look at here, folks. Ignore the forgetful, confused, sad-looking man muttering to himself.

 

[kcd_swede]

Very weird... is it possible Mansa lost the AP city to Sury (or the Dr) without you noticing? IBT or somethimg like that? As far as I know, the owner of the AP MUST be one of the candidates (not sure if barbs or minor civ owns it, though).

I'm afraid you'll have to submit, and then you can do some discovery. Play thru and report in the spoiler thread your outcome -- you can still compare your result even if it won't go into official rankings.

You may have found a bug, but I have to assume its the same for everyone.

 

[nocho]

A very enjoyable game indeed, with the initial absence of animals a nice twist.

I had my mind on conquest as a VC, so figured that Moreau had to be the first victim as I really wanted those horses. When he also had built the Pyramids then making the move for him was even more appealing. An initial careful landing by some brave soldiers showed horses not too far away in the southeast corner of the island, more or less opposite our shore. Started assembling an invasion force of cats, spears (against the horse units) and swords, a bit later accompanied by maces and trebs. 2 triremes protected 3 galleys that did all the ferrying of the troops. I was a bit weary of the announced super-units, but I didn't see them until quite a bit later (and actively ended their misery... They seemed to stay in place mainly. Can animals in the hands of AIs/minor civs actually move within cultural borders? ). By 600AD had captured the Moreauan capital of Enegi and when that city came out of revolt finally got the coveted horses (clearing another few cities meanwhile). Meanwhile libbed MT of course and started assembling forces for my jewish buddy Sury.

Finally declared on Sury in 980AD, while slowly eliminating the rest of Moreau's island. Was a bit concerned whether just cuirs would be enough, as Wang and Mansa were teching quite well, so decided to move onto rifling for cavs. Probably not really necessary, but at least convenient. So from 1010AD onward only spewed cavs. In 1060AD Moreau was dead and Sury kissed the English ring. The war effort was pumped up with the populace profoundly enjoying a civic switch to police state, vassalage, slavery, merc and theocracy. Just when troops were ready to invade Mansa, the cunning tradesman offered himself as a peace vassal. Nice. So the troops had to walk quite the distance accross Mali lands to get to Wang, on whom I declared in 1140AD.

As a diversion the southern forces that I was assembling followed a rather big stack of Suleimans medieval junk that centuries before had been sent all the way to Sury and were now heading back. Just as they left my turf for the resourceless wasteland between me and Sulei, decided to attack the SoD on flat land. Such was the carnage that barely 1 turn later (1180AD), Sulei already threw the towel. Hadn't actually even moved into his territory yet.

The war with Wang wasn't a very even fight either, although he managed to recapture the first city I captured with a stack that came out of the fog. However, got it back easily and when both Pyongyang and Seoul were down, as well as a city on the island that went down to Moreau veterans, he also called it a day in 1190AD.

That left Pericles, who must've seen it coming. Centuries earlier he had captured the only city that Moreau managed to settle away from his island on the main landmass, just on the coast between me and Sulei. He had kept his rather large stack of medieval stuff there, so the same forces that had made Sulei make a bow in a turn by decimating his SoD, took care of that one. With pikes reinforced on a hill in a city the success rate wasn't quite as high as with Sulei, so Pericles wouldn't talk immediately, but still, as the northern forces captured Thebes meanwhile, in 1210AD he too saw the futility of resisting.

Land percentage was low enough not to hit domination, so conquest in 1220AD it was, for quite a nice score of 408k.

Thanks for the game!

 

[kcd_swede]

so conquest in 1220AD it was, for quite a nice score of 408k.

Ch-Ch-Cha-Ching!!!

 

[Xcalibrator]

Very weird... is it possible Mansa lost the AP city to Sury (or the Dr) without you noticing? IBT or somethimg like that? As far as I know, the owner of the AP MUST be one of the candidates (not sure if barbs or minor civ owns it, though).

From what I recall, Mansa and Sury had declared peace several turns before so there couldn't have been a city capture--and hard to image the Dr capturing a big city. I'll try to remember to move the saves from a couple turns before the weird stuff to look at later, but will in the meantime avert my eyes from this Final Spoiler to keep the game relatively unspoiled for me.

 

[Seraiel]

Well done swede screwing a whole style to go for a cultural victory by making sure the Islanders get all the stone-wonders before one even has a chance to build the one necessary for an EE even with going the fastest possible way to build it via Agri -> Masonry -> BW. Maybe I could have gotten the GW if I had directly switched to Slavery, not improved a 4th tile and therefore chopped twice and then 2-pop-whipped the GW completely crippling my opening. Really awesome game.

 

[kcd_swede]

Not intended, but if I had considered it, I probably would have intended it, so... the criticism is accepted in the spirit it was given.

 

[nocho]

I hope when you've cooled down you realize you're being totally unfair here, Seraiel. On immortal you can't bank it all on an early game wonder and not accept it's a pure gamble you can lose. In my game Sury built it FWIW so don't think Islanders were particularly rigged other than what was announced.

 

[Rusten]

Yeah, 2280 BC Great Wall is nothing particularly out of the ordinary. It will happen on normal settings too sometimes.
I also had the Khmer build it in my game.

And this is GOTM, it's the same for everyone. Sometimes things are set up poorly for a particular victory, that's just the name of the game.

 

[Seraiel]

I hope when you've cooled down you realize you're being totally unfair here, Seraiel. On immortal you can't bank it all on an early game wonder and not accept it's a pure gamble you can lose. In my game Sury built it FWIW so don't think Islanders were particularly rigged other than what was announced.

Yeah, 2280 BC Great Wall is nothing particularly out of the ordinary. It will happen on normal settings too sometimes.
I also had the Khmer build it in my game.

And this is GOTM, it's the same for everyone. Sometimes things are set up poorly for a particular victory, that's just the name of the game.

I don't know what FWIW stands for but I assume that the Islanders weren't the only CIV starting with Stone but that Sury also did just to be extra sure. After having read the other Spoiler thread probably Marble too and the only ones that can see the map are you because you uncovered it, I wouldn't even wonder if even more AIs would have been given those resources. Sury has a Wonder-build-rating of 8/10, Giggles 8/10 aswell, Pericles 8/10!!! I am cool, believe that, I'm actually cold because I hate which I do about once a year at most nowadays. When I read that a game is on Immortal and if no further info is given then I assume that a game is not heavily scripted to deny me a complete style to go for victory and that even before I have the chance to discover that! It's not me making my game dependent on a single early wonder, it's the way that CIV is programmed, and if someone messes too heavily with that programming a part of it doesn't work anymore. I have no choices like to bullheadidly carry on because I know that all other players are handed the same cards that I was, I made the strongest possible decision with deciding on my victory condition forming my actions, I played flawlessly (not difficult for 40T) , went all in and was returned nothing because I got a 7 and a 9 while the game was scripted so the AIs have a full-house, a flush and a straight. It had nothing to do with a gamble nocho, there was no gambling, there was only lose in my case and it wasn't even in a way where I could have adapted to it or could have forseen and prevented it.
If I'd take an argument that I didn't even think of before, but with Immortal and the AIs even being at war a normal player would assume that the Wonders go especially late, 2240 BC for the GW and 2040 BC for Oracle like I read in the other spoiler thread are regarded as early (for me normal) on Deity and without war! I stayed at one city, beelined the GW and even researched BW for chops which already was a great sacrifice that I wouldn't even be willing to make in a HoF game and in those (and on Deity) I build the GW with after expanding towards the 2nd city and Oracle CS afterwards if having a Corn and 2 shinies. Tell me honestly, what should I have done towards your opinion in my case? Decided to not try an espionage-assisted cultural victory when it's one of the possible options of winning and when the settings don't say anything about that it's impossible to be competetive with it from the start?

Seriously, but every word lost towards this game is a word that's wasted, and you know exactly that I'm usually a very positive person that doesn't blame a map-maker if given a hard scenario and even praises the map-maker if being handed a map that makes fun. This map was neither hard nor that it made fun if making the decision that I made, which is one that's totally legit.

 

[nocho]

And what if AIs started with marble or stone, that can happen in any game, right? I find your arguments very self-serving and childish tbh. As if kcd would specifically want to screw over anyone going for espionage, a VC that hardly anyone ever tries in GOTMs. I really can't believe you're saying all this in earnest.

 

[Seraiel]

And what if AIs started with marble or stone, that can happen in any game, right? I find your arguments very self-serving and childish tbh. As if kcd would specifically want to screw over anyone going for espionage, a VC that hardly anyone ever tries in GOTMs. I really can't believe you're saying all this in earnest.

Could you maybe relate to my post? You see the map, how many civs have Marble and Stone? Having one is already not garantueed on Inland Sea but if i. e. the 3 or 4 heavy wonder-builders have both, that'd definitely be a script to screw the players. Things like that need to be mentioned, a player approaches a scenario with the information that is given to him and not under the assumption that the map-maker wanted to destroy his game.

This has nothing to do with childish, not sure about self-serving, I was mad because I didn't have any chance in this game and my arguments are valid, what does it matter that they serve me?
Also: Espionage-victories being uncommon is no argument at all, they're only uncommon because the players havn't adapted yet, I have experience with an EACV from GM-121 though, so I thought I'd try one because Lizzy is the best civ for it and Inland Sea the best map. Going for culture also fit great with having no Horses etc. , so I prepared for a refreshingly short but challenging fun game. Well the game was short, but that's all.

I btw. didn't say that swede wanted to screw the espionage-players, I just say that he did.

 

[Ronnie1]

Nice win nocho! I went to late and too slow thinking dom with Cereal Mills. Only got to 250K before tripping, capture too many cities.

 

[ikotomi]

Finally had time to finish this game after a crazy month. 1808 Space victory, with everything that could have gone wrong going wrong.

I made the mistake of turbo charging all the AI's technology wise to boost the science rate. This meant that Sury somehow got Railroad while I was taking him on, and 2 machine guns killed my entire stack of Cavalry in his last good city that had the Hindu shrine and MoM. At that point, I had already been delaying Mining inc and a GA, because I thought I'd get the shrine city + MoM soon, so I bit the bullet, took capitulation and settled Mining somewhere else.

I lost pretty much every single wonder I actually wanted except for the Kremlin. If I had gotten Taj and the MoM, I could have probably shaved off a ton of turns. My 3 and 4 person GA's did come really late, and in 16 turns of GA, I built pretty much the entire spaceship.