1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

BOTM 103 - First Spoiler to 1 AD

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Game of the Month' started by Deckhand, Mar 10, 2016.

  1. Deckhand

    Deckhand Procrastination at its finest GOTM Staff

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2008
    Messages:
    5,504
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    California

    BOTM 103 - First Spoiler to 1 AD



    Use this thread to tell us what happened in your game, up to 1AD!
    How did it go?
    Did you follow advice in announcement discussion thread or forge your own path?

    If you aren't experienced at deity level, did you take the adventurer save or is this your first deity attempt?


    Stop! If you are participating in BOTM 103, then you MUST NOT read this thread unless EITHER
    • You have reached at least 1 AD in your game, OR
    • You have submitted your entry

    Posting Restrictions

    • Please do not disclose ANY events or information gained post 1 AD.
    • Please do not reveal your final result if that happened after 1 AD.
    • Please do not discuss the location of resources that may not show up before 1 AD. (Iron is OK, coal and oil are not)
    • Do not post any savegame file from the game. Discussions and screenshots are fine but not actual games
     
  2. Major Tom

    Major Tom Immortal

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2005
    Messages:
    623
    Location:
    Oslo
    Indeed an interesting map.
    Moving from emperor to deity is perhaps doable with no barbs and other extras.

    Wanted a superearly SH so went masonry first, then mining.

    Warrior went westward and met a Byzantine worker. Reading this forums I declared and stole it. Now all hell broke lose, so needed slavery and chopping ASAP. No time for fishing. Of all thing, copper in BFC too, so this is about war. I was churning out axes for almost 4000 years to fend of his.
    Initial build order was worker, SH, settler. Perhaps a warrior in between.

    Actually, got AH before fishing as 2nd city could work sheeps. Nearby horses was convenient for next city.

    In the meantime: SH 2600BC, Oracle 1720 (Metal Casting) and also a cheap Colossus in 675. Also built Hagia Sophia recently.
    2nd city @2560BC, 3rd @2240.

    Bulbed Theo and Paper for trading. Now got machinery, but no CS (starting now).
    Crossbows needed as Justinian immediately went wheeorn after 10 turns of peace. I better kill him off rather soon. Hatty, Freddy and me is Jewish, Justinian buddhist.

    Think espionage is needed on this map for several reasons, so need some Courthouses too.

    City count: 10.
    bpt: 60 at breakeven, but production is good.

    I wonder if the war was worth it. No religion and no foreign traderoutes and:
    14 axes lost (18 killed), 4 warriors and 4 chariots lost but killed 16 spears and 11 archers. 1 tundra city on copper and 2 workers captured.

    Deity players: welcome to comment. Look forward to see your progress, decisions and thoughts for winning.
     
  3. Deckhand

    Deckhand Procrastination at its finest GOTM Staff

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2008
    Messages:
    5,504
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    California
    Thanks. I regenerated map many times to give you your own peninsula, with enough AIs (on your continent) so you could trade and not one of of the worst (subjective) of the AIs as your neighbor.

    I think worker stealing works best on immortal where AIs start with workers to steal and aren't as buffed as deity. Steal worker, then quickly made peace. (maybe they don't make peace so quickly on deity) Or choke capital so they can't develop. Anyway, that's what I've read.

    I'm not a deity player by far; but commenting anyway. ;)

    Glad you like it and are trying (easy) deity. Hope you can get the win.
    Spoiler :
    I unusually make my high level maps much easier than their level; and my lower level maps hard for their level. Perhaps in future, I will do this occasionally instead of usually.
     
  4. Major Tom

    Major Tom Immortal

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2005
    Messages:
    623
    Location:
    Oslo
    He did not want peace on reasonable conditions for 3500 years. I choked him enough to be backwards. Problem was I got backwards too. Hehe. But guess there are ways out of it either by military, espionage or diplomacy.

    Hatty and Freddy play as a team as they are friendly++ to eachother. Runaway techwise.
    Interesting setup if intentionally.
     
  5. Deckhand

    Deckhand Procrastination at its finest GOTM Staff

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2008
    Messages:
    5,504
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    California
    That's probably a deity difference.

    Nope.
    I picked them as friendly AIs to be easier on the player. But I was too lazy to move AI starting locations and just regenerated until I had a good position for player.


    We do have to be careful not to discuss anything past 1 AD here though.
     
  6. yyeah

    yyeah Emperor

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2015
    Messages:
    1,220
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Poland
    I had 9 cities. I dont rly remember overall BPT but only my Capitol had around 140:science: at breakeven which was 75% i belive... without Academy. ( or that was at 100% hmm iam not sure right now, but nevermind you can c diference).

    Thing about worker stealing on deity is, its allways risky on standard game speed, allways something can go wrong. And with such a beautiful i dont know is it worth to take such a risk.
    If so i rather to make 2-3 wm2 axes pillage strat res, and take some workers.
    Another thing against worker stealing is diplo hit, v often player will be worst enemy, and with limited ais on continent one will get even less trades ... not mentioning tr.
    Especialy when this map setup is just awsome for GLH.
     
  7. Rusten

    Rusten Deity

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2007
    Messages:
    3,205
    Location:
    Oslo
    Another rich BOTM map: BC Liberalism 2 games in a row. :eek:

    I didn't bother with SH as there were so many good city sites available. I wanted settlers out ASAP. The only wonder I prioritized here was the imbalanced lighthouse. It was easy to identify its benefits with all coastal cities and meeting AIs early on.
    Another point which made me pursue it was finding this ocean tile which indicates another landmass.
    Spoiler :


    I settled a city over there early on to pop borders and access it early, even if there were more lucrative cities available short term.

    I adopted buddhism early to befriend Justinian, but his teching has been terrible. I got him to friendly at 500 BC, but almost all of my tech trading has been with the other 2 AIs. :sad: At least I got the benefit of OR early and he did spread the religion around.

    ~450 BC I popped a GM at about 40% chance I believe. Pretty good timing as this meant I could use him to lightbulb civil service. I then adopted bureaucracy in a golden age using the music GA and quickly finished the Colossus as well.
    Spoiler :



    At 350 BC I was getting 416 BPT at 100% slider (in GA).
    I didn't bother postponing Liberalism this game. I'm planning to tech Rifling and the only tech on that path which costs significantly more is Rifling itself so I just took Nationalism for free at 150 BC. I could use the Taj GA to adopt theocracy and maybe caste system as well.

    At 1 AD I have the option of bribing Justinian into war with Egypt. Probably a good idea, but I want to finish the Taj first (he wants Nationalism).
    I played the last turns before 1 AD a little quickly as I wanted to reach the spoiler thread mark before pausing and forgot to pre-whip production into Oxford. It's still 5 turns off but really should've been finished or close to it by now.
    Spoiler :


    Wonders completed:
    GLH~1200 BC
    Hanging Gardens 750 BC
    GL 625 BC
    Colossus~375 BC

    Stats 1000 BC:
    100 BPT at 100% slider (-29)
    6 cities, 21 pop, 5 workers

    Stats 1 AD:
    513 BPT at 100% (OU would've been another 100) at -133
    11 cities, 82 pop, 10 workers

    Game plan is to not war until cavalry this game. They're only 20 hammers more than cuirassiers and my tech rate is so strong here. Maybe it's a waste of a window, but I'm going domination so I need something to invade by sea later too. The original continent is not enough as far as I know. I will start making cuirassiers in a few turns though.

    There is another ocean tile which reveals a continent in the fog further out. If the last two AIs are there then maybe this could've been done with cuirassiers and galleys, but it's deity so I'm playing it safe. Going Astronomy while taking over the continent.
     
  8. Rusten

    Rusten Deity

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2007
    Messages:
    3,205
    Location:
    Oslo
    The first thing you should ask yourself when meeting an AI early on is whether he can be of use either through war or through peace.

    Justinian founded a religion and does not DoW at pleased. Furthermore you have amazing land nearby and barbarians are off. This all speaks towards peaceful settling and making wonders. Worker stealing is, IMO, a big mistake and a distraction. You can easily block off Justinian from the spots that matter and get him to friendly and make him a tech partner. That's much better than having him as an enemy.

    I've only made warriors this game and yet I've been 100% safe as Justinian will not DoW on me. That's a lot of saved hammers compared to you.

    Worker stealing on deity is more the exception than the rule for me. Lower difficulties are a different matter.
     
  9. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2010
    Messages:
    4,194
    Location:
    Cantaloupe Island
    Well played, Rusten ! There's some wow factor to your attempt :goodjob:


    Unlocking the 4 cities island to the west so early must be excellent, considering resources and, especially, the GLH.
    Having 4 cities at or above size 10 is also eyes-raising. Size 19 capital... nuff said !


    Couldn't you Oracle something or did you just assess that hammers were better invested in workers/settlers ?


    I didn't read the map that well.
    Scouted East at first, settled the marble for city 2 (aiming for Oracle), lost the 3-food site to Justinian a couple of turns before I would settle city 3, Oracled MC and then I got swamped in an Axemen war. Was close to retiring at 1 AD.
    Teching up instead, on the back of the GLH, is a much safer option and, given your tech speed, maybe plain better.


    I suppose this is the best point I reached, at 775 BC, just took a cease-fire :
    Spoiler :
    Spoiler :




    15 Axemen, lost 5 to capture 3 cities.
    Lost the GLH to Egypt (can't commit to everything).
    Later went on to suicide my main stack on Thessalonica, instead of circling south, south-west, west, north-west to capture the weaker spots while teching up.
    Then I was doomed.

    It looked better at 2000 BC :lol: Even though I lost that spot :
    Spoiler :
     
  10. Rusten

    Rusten Deity

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2007
    Messages:
    3,205
    Location:
    Oslo
    I was going back and forth on this. In my game I made an early beeline to alphabet (without BW) as I wanted to speed up the continent tech trading (didn't pan out *that* great). By the time I had alpha Justinian had priesthood I believe and he has a fairly high wonder rating. There was also the Hatty factor. So I decided to go maths for better chops and securing the GLH instead. I was worried about losing both if I didn't keep my eyes on the prize. MC with Oracle is super strong with IND leaders though, so I think it's just as good to not beeline alphabet, but instead go Oracle+GLH and its techs before Alphabet. Very close call.


    Losing "that" spot really sucks. I went there with my first settler just to be sure. Even if south would be slightly better short term.
    That was another reason I went Alpha first btw. That city only had gold in the first ring, so I thought it would be best to play on its strength and utilise the commerce.
     
  11. Jastrow

    Jastrow Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    Messages:
    2,685
    Location:
    Germany
    As with all Civ games, one makes decisions and prioritizes, one tries to play careful and considered moves, and then things happen. Some good, some bad. Lets review mine...

    The bad:

    -I made the decision not to try the Oracle. I did not expect to be able to get better than Math or Alpha on Deity, and that seems like too much of an opportunity (especially since SH, GLH and Moai are all on my wish list). In hindsight, it went late enough that Oracling MC would have been very nice.

    -I cut a corner exploring, and did not spot the ocean tile 3-NE of the cow until later than I should have. As a result, my first off-shore city was founded in 100 BC, whereas in hindsight it would be nearly 500 years sooner.

    -The Mausoleum was built by an unknown owner, which I assume means it is on the other continent. Would have liked to conquer that wonder; Great lib built by Germany, which means it will be obsolete by the time I can get to it. Chichen Itza and Zeus both built on MY continent. Why could those not be built overseas??

    -I am still last in score for what its worth.

    -My total military is 6 warriors (and a Galley).



    The good:

    -I managed to avoid war! I intentionally settled to make my border be on a narrow part of the isthmus so as to minimize boarder tiles with Justy. At one point he had a fist, and was hovering around with a stack-of-doom, but I think avoiding being a valid land target saved me.

    -I did eventually notice the sea tile, so I have started to settle the island. One city down, another settler is in place, and a third will arrive in about 4 turns.

    -Artemis was built on my continent shortly before I needed a target for a great trade mission.

    -Hatty and Justy have been at war for eons.

    -I lead the 3 known AI's in cities and technology.

    -I was presented a worker steal on a platter around T15. I could nab one, with zero chance of getting caught before it got home. After thing about it for a while, I decided NOT to take it. I figured I would need to build up at least 6 or so axemen to have a chance at getting peace, and 6x35 = a very expensive worker. I am quite please with that decision.


    The situation:

    I have settled my peninsula peacefully, and should complete settling my island within 10 or so turns. Obviously, it is time to start planning the break-out. I am a poor warmonger, and to be honest, am still afraid of Diety unit-spam capabilities, so I likely will play it safe and breakout with cannons. Cannons, with a mix of Maceman and Musketeers should allow for efficient warring. Question is how many do I need??? I am thinking 12 cannons + 12 attackers in my primary stack, and 6+6 in a second division. Is that enough on Diety???

    Cities and population: I have 11. Will settle #12 next turn, and #13 a few turns thereafter. Not much room left for anything beyond 14 or 15. Total pop is a bit low at 56, but that is in part because I recently "invested" 18 population units in Universities. Capital will be size 18 next turn.

    Infrastructure: Buildings: 9 Granaries, 8 Forges, 7 Libraries, 6 Universities, 2 Courthouse, 2 Lighthouse, an aqueduct and a barracks. Land improvements: 9 Farms (including a chain to irrigate the double wheat city), 5 fishing nets, 8 mines, 5 pastures, a plantation, quarry and Winery; 8 villages and two Hamlets (that also will be villages in two turns.) I also have 9 workers.

    Wonders: SH in 2640, Moai in 2049, GLH in 1640, Mids in 950, Colossus in 700, HG in 550, Oxford in 50BC.

    Research: 718 bpt@ 100% (-95 gpt), ~510 at sustainable 65%. I expect this to jump to over 750@100% when I hit return (2nd city on island, capital growth, hamlet growth, etc.). With 1540 gc in the bank, and likely a trade or two coming, I should be able to stay at 100% for another 20 turns. I have 26 techs including education, printing press, and calendar. Construction is still missing, but should be available by trade soon. I decide to delay Liberalism a bit, as I am still eyeing Steal or Communism with it, but that may be too optimistic on Deity.

    Great people: First was a prophet. Used him for a GA to switch into representation and caste system for 8 turns, and then on the last term, back into slavery. Second was a GS rush produced during this GA and used on an academy. Third was a Merchant which netted 1700 gc in a mission. Fourth is due in 3 turns, and is a real mutt (30% GE, 26% GM, 22% GS, 22% GP). I have not even tried to figure out what I will do with any of those.

    Where I go from here is uncertain... I am thinking of picking up Gunpowder - Chemistry - Steel - Communism. This should take under 25 turns. Then whipping out a cannon army, and around turn 145, starting to push across the continent. It will be a long slog, as cannons need about 35 turns to get to Dortmund, NOT including the fighting they need to do on the way! I doubt I can take the continent by turns 200, but maybe turn 210 is realistic. That should give me a ~40 city empire is successful.
     
  12. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2010
    Messages:
    4,194
    Location:
    Cantaloupe Island
    It seems really good, Jastrow :goodjob:
    700+bpt without an Academy...
    Having that little pop is understandable, given 5 whipped Universities (minus 15-20 pop ?).

    It seems you were all right to decide to tech up.
    I've replayed the BCs from my failed Axemen war and, while I could get the success I first wanted, I'm almost positive the research first approach is best, here.
    An Axe war cannot ensure the GLH, which is the main research engine on such a map.
    As a result, when you could have Oxford/Liberalism at 1 AD, an Axe war without GLH barely reaches Civil Service.
    The headstart on conquest is probably quickly offset by the tech lead and superior units.
    All in all, the costs to an axe war seem too high.



    Some points as food for thought :
    - If you're going for a military win, was it worth it to whip that much population into Universities ?
    Your Liberalism target isn't very far off and the extra pop :
    a) doesn't require time to pay off ;
    b) counts as stored production once you unlock your tech.

    - On warring, I doubt there should be any hard rule, like 12 cannons + 12 mop up units.
    Scouting is key. Scouting is what should tell you how many units you need.
    If you go cannons, you may want to consider a different split than 50/50 siege/mop up.
    Cannons are so powerful that you could do with less. A 50/50 split, imho, is better suited for a catapult war.
    On the other hand, 12 mop units could do for some cities but could as well be a little too few for some others (meaning 2 turns attacks to capture a city).
    I'd also be hesitant to split the army from the 1st turn of war.
    Then again, scouting should help decide. Locating stacks, etc.

    - The GLH is probably immensely superior to the Oracle, here.
    Of course, having both is best. But if one has to choose between the two, the GLH must be the better choice.
    While Oracle --> MC is very strong (given IND leader, gems & gold), the main issue with the Oracle is that to build it safely, one has to warp his early tech path.
    One just cannot get Masonry, Pottery, AH, Bronze Working, Sailing AND an early Priesthood.
    In my case, I had to skip both AH (missing the horses) and Sailing (missing the GLH + early trade routes).

    Another way to look at this is : the Oracle is a one-shot hammers to beakers conversion.
    Having both a gems and a gold tile does reduce the appeal of such conversion.
    Although, more research is always good and the Oracle is especially cheap, given IND and marble.


    Good luck :goodjob:
     
  13. Jastrow

    Jastrow Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    Messages:
    2,685
    Location:
    Germany
    Edited my above post... Had forgotten about the GS.

    Second great person was a GS, and the 700+ bpt is with an academy. I guess it is not spoilerish to confirm that research did indeed go above 750 (762 if I remember rightly) on the next turn (25 AD) when 3 cities grew and I plopped down a second off-shore city.

    14 Whipped population went directly into universities, plus another 5 from pre-whips, that mostly went into the unis, so about 18 effective population points. I think this was a worthwhile investment because I am likely going to space, and the capital is so good that the earlier Oxford really pays for itself quickly.

    For the war, the split army is necessary. Because of wanting to minimize my borders with Justy, the border is split in two by mountains, and he has units near both entrances. Arguably, it might be right to have the second stake purely defensive, but it must exist in some form or I my empire would come under attack from the south. Since his southern cities look fairly weak, I think it makes sense to make this second stack offensive as well, and sweep is empire in a parallel wave flowing to the west.

    I agree the 50% mix is wrong, but the thinking is that if I START with this, since I am using musketeers that move to the front much faster than cannons, the reinforcements will have a much lower fraction of cannons, so the mix will become more appropriate as the war progresses.

    Yes, what you say is exactly what I as thinking on Oracle. As it turns out, the start is so good, and the AI, for some reason which I still have not figures out, seem a bit slow for Deity standards, that I could have comfortably taken Oracle (Oracling either CoL or MC) and and the Lighthouse. This would have meant delaying Moai a bit, but of course, you cannot lose that. Of course, this is all in hindsight. At the time, this meant risking the GLH, which is worth so much more on the map that I would make the exact same decision again if provided with the same situation and information.
     
  14. Dhoomstriker

    Dhoomstriker Girlie Builder

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2006
    Messages:
    13,408
    1 AD
    10 Cities, 25 Military Units (Maces, Cats, and older units), and am about to go to war

    Justinian got his fist up reasonably early on, forcing my hand, as he'd settled two Cities adjacent to mine and I was very likely his target with 2 Warriors to my name, being a valid land target, and him not being Pleased with me yet.

    I saved my bacon by begging 10 Gold when I spotted a stack of 8 mixed Axes, Spears, and Chariots headed my way.

    But, to be safe, I started whipping troops. There are no thoughts of early Oxford anymore and I'm heading toward self-teching Engineering just to make my investment in Military Units make sense.

    After being unable to declare war on me, Justinian turned his stack around and several turns later, declared war on Frederick. So, I plan to join in on that war. Frederick has Guilds, so it won't be an easy battle, but it's got to be done, now that I've committed my economy to war. I've played too many Warlords expansion games to fall for the trap of declaring war on Justinian, as Frederick will have more than enough War Success to capitulate Justinian as soon as I were to capture a couple of Justinian's Cities, which would leave me in an even greater mess than slogging it out against Frederick.

    I only managed to squeeze out The Great Lighthouse; other Wonders netted me Failure Gold, making me think that I should have focused more on Chopping out Wonders if I had wanted to be serious about building them.

    I did at least manage to get 3 Great People, which were used for launching a Golden Age (which helped with getting the other 2 Great People), Lightbulbing Machinery (so that I could build some Macemen), and finally building an Academy.
     
  15. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2008
    Messages:
    22,221
    And someone please remind me why Rusten is such an awesome player...for some reason I forget :mischief:

    I mean seriously WTF :crazyeye::lol:

    I haven't played a game of Civ in I don't know how long, but this one looked fun. Definitely Diet Deity.

    SIP, ofc, and the next city in the awesome spot to the W. Actually, pretty much settled almost exactly like Rusten except for setting up a city to hop over to the island. Just didn't pay attention to the details due to rustiness, so I settled 1S of the cows.

    Built GW ->Mids->GLH->Colossus. Tried half-arsed for Oracle. Started Henge in second city right off purely for fail gold.

    Went straight for Mono for the religion, for some purpose at the time, but turns out now not to have been of much count. Did give me some trade bait later. I was first to Alpha. BW quite late actually.

    I've only built 3 warriors so far. Lots of empty cities. 8 cities with a 9 dump city in the tundra to the south planned.

    Like Dhoom, Justy put up his fist rather early, but I had my Gspy out and used him to scout around there to see troop movement. Pretty confident that he was going for Confused Hatty and he surely did. In fact, they are still at war.

    Yeah, and planned to steal from Justinator, but I'm out-teching him, so Gspy will be used for GA which I really should have taken advantage of already.

    Lots of fail gold, and I'm casually dumping OF in Maoi in all cities to complete at some point whenever for major gold.

    No idea though what I'm going to do for this game, but teching is not an issue, although no where near the insane craziness of Rusten mind-bending game of awesomeness. Probably will Lib Astro or something.

    As I said before, DeG is really one of the top leaders in the game but never talked up much.

    (yeah..I could have had oracle easy if I really pursued it)

    Overall, the tech pace seems quite a bit slower in my game than what I'm seeing in yall's games. In hindsight, although first to Alpha rather late, I should have beelined it much earlier and scrapped the stupid Mono idea.
     
  16. Folket

    Folket Deity

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2010
    Messages:
    4,021
    Location:
    Sweden
    From my memory, did not save at 1 AD.

    Will finish Oxford at 1AD and have 1500 gold in the bank. 1 turn Oxford after spending 5 turns building universities. I have a lack of workers and did not plan well enough.

    I have 8 cities and missed the island to the northeast. Had I seen it I would have built 3-4 more settlers and had 1000 less gold but higher research.

    Justinian is threatening to eat Germany so I plan to invade him with curasiers. I could easily get cavalry but I'm afraid that if I wait longer he may become a monster.

    So plan:
    Lib military tradition. Isolate Byzantium and Germany by feeding techs to Egypt. Bribe Justinian into caste system turn before I start the war to fight slightly less longbows. Continue to conquer Germany after Byzantium. Invade other continent once Germany is defeated. Accept Egypt as a peace vassal.
     

Share This Page