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BOTM 13 Final Spoiler - Game Submitted or Abandoned

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Game of the Month' started by DynamicSpirit, Jan 2, 2009.

  1. DynamicSpirit

    DynamicSpirit Fear him of the pink tie Moderator GOTM Staff

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2005
    Messages:
    5,941
    Location:
    London, UK

    BOTM 13 Final Spoiler



    Reading Requirements

    Stop! If you are participating in BOTM 13, then you MUST NOT read this thread unless
    • You have submitted your entry


    Posting Restrictions

    • Please do not reveal locations of modern resources (coal and later)
     
  2. Conquistador 63

    Conquistador 63 Deity

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2006
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    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Brazil
    Again, thanks to DS for the fantastic game. I mean, it wasn't a smart rush, a pretty BC finish or anything, but instead the longest (+30h) and hardest-fought XOTM I ever played - 1718AD conquest victory. And I enjoyed every minute of it! :goodjob:

    Highlights:
    . 8 GE (!), 6 GS, 7GG, 1 GA (Music);
    . Units built: 36 Cuirassiers, 28 Trebs, 24 Cavs, 23 Maces, 21 Knights, 19 Cats, 15 Archers, 13 HA's.
    . Enemy units killed: 88 LBows, 86 Cats, 67 HA's, 53 Char, 47 Axes, 44 Archers, 38 Swords, 29 workers, etc.
    . Elimination dates: England 1265AD, Ethiopia 1455AD, Egypt 1575AD, Maya 1706AD, Japan and Netherlands 1716AD.

    In hindsight, poor early settling, scouting and teching choices prevented me from getting rid of the opposition quickly enough, but you know what? I believe the game was funnier this way. I got to experiment with Medieval and Renaissance warfare and learned a lot, both from success and failures. Can you believe I've never had killed enemy siege with flanking attacks before? :lol: And I didn't think lonely pillaging Knights/Cuirassiers could die as easily from enemy spearmen as they did in my game. :blush:
     
  3. Gosha190

    Gosha190 King

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2006
    Messages:
    973
    Location:
    St. Petersburg
    hmm.. looks like a little late time :) you started war too late - it's the main reason to my mind.

    I'v lost any chance to get fast domi and tryed to catch gold. I see that hhhawk also submitted his game.. so I have miserable chance to vin.

    My main mistake is: I researched too long time and so I began my expansion too late - only after I got biology in 800AD.

    as a result: domi in 15-th century with 300+ K points.
     
  4. hellwitch

    hellwitch Prince

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2007
    Messages:
    520
    Location:
    Bulgaria
    domination win

    Game date: 1515AD
    Turns played: 323
    Base score: 6769
    Final score: 245359

    i was slow for fastest dom so though to try for the gold but Gosha seems to be quite better.
     
  5. civilizer

    civilizer Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2009
    Messages:
    8
    1250 AD Conquest win

    Eliminated all enemies on home continent before 0 AD. The difficulty of always war is that you never get to trade maps so there was a lot of black on the screen. I built a city on the outer coast of formerly Egyptian territory to build galleons, but it wasn't until 940AD that I knew who and roughly where the last enemy was.

    775 AD Guilds completed the military techs.
    880 AD Astronomy for galleons to get my knights to Holland.
    1040 AD flooded Holland with knights.
    1250 AD it's all over.
    Built 23 knights and lost 10. I would have lost fewer knights if I had taken some siege weapons, which might have been a good idea since they had longbows, but it would have taken longer.
     
  6. jesusin

    jesusin Ant GOTM Staff

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2005
    Messages:
    4,135
    Location:
    Madrid
    jesusin, contender. Goal: Gold medal. Result: 1270AD domination for some 200K points.


    Phase 5/6: Money, money, money

    At 500AD I was losing money at 0% research. Why? I had the GLH whcih was doing a nice job, every traderoute being worth 2gpt. I had lots of cottages around the capital. But I had tons of units to provide happines and grow the cities big. My cities were basically oriented towards hammers (and fod for whipping). I had another ton of units taking cities around the world. I had 3 cities in the E island and another 3 in the continent. I saw that taking more and more cities in the continent will be my ruin, so I used the GE I had for a new Palace in London.

    The money I got from taking cties was initially wasted by staying at 0% and just surviving a few more turns for the next city taking. That's ok if you are going for Conquest. But I needed Domination with a final phase of pop growth, so that was not the way. I started to go 100% research with the money from taking cities till I got Currency. Strangely enough, I was even more in the red after that, even while building wealth in some low production cities and a market in the first city. I did the same with CoL and whipped a bunch of ch in my cities. To no avail, still in the red. What was going on?

    Well, my police of taking/razing was wrong. I started by keeping them all. Every time one of them got out of resistance, the economy took a hit. Just when CoL was putting me in the green, I was so overly worried that I stated razing the last cities, the ones I should have kept!


    Phase 5/6: The war

    Quite easy. Conquered the world from W to E, having my back safe thanks to that mountain straight the wise map creator devised.

    I had ton of bad luck against Pacal once again, but it didn't really mattered. What can Archers and the occasional Spear/Holkan do against two dozens of knights?
    By the way I saw a single enemy sea unit the whole game. I've read other spoilers were people had a lot of naval battles. Why not in my game? Well, the answer is I was quick to bother them. Appart from London and Aksum, there were no coastal cities of the AI. When I sent my lb pillagers, they were unable to settle many more cities, and the coastal cities were busy building units against my invaders.


    Phase 7: Playing for points

    I can say it now I've done it: I hate milking.

    At 800AD I stopped what had been my strategy so far (basically fastest conquest) and started analysing what those numbers down right under my civ meant. From that point I could have won a Domination victory before 1000AD by spamming settlers and growing borders, for some 100K points. But I had set the Gold medal as my goal, sigh!

    I terribly mismanaged this phase. I was constantly under the impression that I'd like to finish the game in 5 turns. So I didn't start the Wonders that took 10 turns to build, but built wealth instead to have one more tech researched... of course 20 turns later the curious figures down right were still growing and growing, I had realised I should have built the 10turns wonder, but I didn't start it now since I was probably only 5 turns awasy from finishing the game!

    After Calendar I connected a lot of happiness resources, built the Pyramids and revolted to Representation and Mercantilism. Also disbanded all my army. Built a handful of new high food cities, in order to grow them fat. My poor economy suffered and suffered.

    I had worked hard to get a GArtist in order to reach the domination limit quickly. That was stupid, I had time to spare in my hands. In fact, I had to stop settling cities in order to stay under the domination limit!

    Slowly researched CS and revolted to Bureaucracy. Another pretty nice mistake: I had a grand total of 3 libraries. I was always thinking about building them and not doing it becasuse the game end was "so close". Built the HG for a nice increase of some 20 pop.

    At 1180AD I saw more clarly: I was to launch a second GoldenAge, to win in 10 turns, not 5 in order to enjoy the whole GAge, I was to research up to Liberalism in order to get the point of the free tech. With Liberalism I would pick Economy for the gM which would be bulbed for another free tech. I executed the plan, went from 170K point to 200K points and settled a bunch of cities to go beyond the domination limit.

    Nonsensical outburst follows, read at your own risk.
    Spoiler :

    Why you should never play for points?

    Playing for points is pointless!

    The milking phase of my game has been the third most boring Civ experience of my life (the first one being the Civ4 game I went for the cow, the second one being back in Civ1 time when I used to reload some 10 times every battle till I won without loses).

    It is all such a nonsense! Points are based on 4 components, the 5th being the finish date. But the weight of the 5th component is so small (at least in the 800AD-1300AD period) that you are always better off by delaying your victory. Let's analyse the components, with my game in mind:

    1.- Territory. Hmm, initially one would think that it makes sense to relate points to land. But it doesn't. Since you have so long to milk, you always have some 60% of the map. Not more, not less. Moreover, the territory that counts for victory is the one that you have owned for some 20 turns. So it doesn't even matter if in the final turn you barelly go over the limit or you carefully settle every bit of land in the map and use a bunch of Artist culture bombs to reach exactly 100%, you will get the same points either way! Nonsense.

    2.- Wonders. Hmm, initially one would think that it makes sense to relate points to wonders, in order to measure the greatness of a civ. But it doesn't. Pray, tell me, what good does the SoZ do to my civ? I wasn't even at war, not having met the last civ! Nonsense.

    3.- Research. Hmm, initially one would think that it makes sense to relate points to research. But it doesn't. What's the point in having researched 50 Future Techs? In my game, what was the point of researching GunPowder, ot Theology or whatever in the final phase of the game? Would have I been a better player if I had waited another 10 turns to put an end to the game, thus getting a few more techs? No. But I would have been rewarded with more points. Nonsense.

    4.- Population. Hmm, initially one would think that it makes sense to relate points to population (the bigger the better, they say). But it doesn't. In the milking phase I was getting pop after pop and I was using them to work unimproved grass tiles in order to get even more pop. What good does such a citizen do to my empire? Where's the beauty of fat, useless cities? When I changed my capital to London, the maintenance in my old capital skyrocketed and I saved a lot of money in maintenance by whipping some pop into a useful Knight. That was a wise move! That should be rewarded by the point system, not punished! Nonsense.

    The worst of it all is that you constantly have to watch NOT to win the game!!! What kind of game I am playing if I am trying to avoid victory? Disgusting.


    Now that I understand a bit better how it works, I realise I won't be winning the gold medal and all my pains have been in vain. My strategy was basically that of fastest Conquest. I thought the final date was important for points. It isn't. I should have played the strategy for fastest Space Race. Research a lot, research very fast. Then, at the very end of the game (1500AD? 1800AD? I don't know, can someone help me here?) build a few units, conquer the world, abuse Biology farms and maybe also Sushi to grow really fat and then get over the domination limit. I'll probably have to do it again if I want to get to Heptathlete. What a drag!
     
  7. Htadus

    Htadus A and L's dad

    Joined:
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    3,441
    Location:
    Rochester, NY
    My plan was to get the conquest on the same turn my cities turn LC. Just to see what win I will get. Kept too many cities I guess, and when the culture was turned to 100% domination limit went from 40% land to 60% in about 10-15 turns. So I turned off culture and got out of Free speach and hope to get a conquest. Started to attack Dutch with courissar's, muskets and CR3 Maces and Trbs. For about 10 turns the land limit stayed at 63,78%, I was able to raze a few dutch cities when domination limit was hit. 3 culture cities were about 60 -70 turns away making about 450 - 500 cpt. :cry:

    Now it is 4 games where I messed up and got a domination win.
     
  8. 7thGate

    7thGate Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2008
    Messages:
    23
    Well, I did not succeed in this game. However, it was the closest game I have ever played, and extremely fun. I built two cities on the mainland to the east on hills and held them against wave after wave of enemy units. I lost the cities once my enemies got seige weapons and fought a ton of naval battles trying to keep my territory together.

    I was never successfully invaded, but I did lose control of the ocean for brief and crippling periods of time. I recaptured my cities and stuck 23 level 5 machine gunners in them, which slaughtered tons of enemies until pacal got tanks and took them back. I established a dominant air force, and started doing what I now realize I should have been doing all along; razing cities.

    Unfortunately at this point in the game, I was woefully behind on tech, but managed to limp up to the needed military technology. I almost lost 3 times, before I was finally done in; Haptshepsut was 2 turns away from a cultural victory when a suicide squad of tanks with commando destroyed one of the three cities. Pacal launched a space ship; managed to raze his capital four turns later. Tokugawa launches a space ship, managed to raze his capital as well. I developed an interesting tactic; heavily bomb a costal city, invade with marines, sail transports into city. Take tanks with commando and drive out to raze a nearby city, then have them return to the transport and withdraw all units. The AI reconquers the city, letting you do it again and again. Doing this, I razed most of Mayans and the Ethiopians. I never did get around to conquering england, but since they were boxed in from the beginning they never really did much other than get their units slaughtered for my great general benefit.

    Going for a time/points victory, since I lack the tech to space race and can't conquer enough stuff. I made a last ditch effort to conquer enough cities to push my score above the rest. I made it to 200 points below the top with three turns left and an army of modern armor just trying to finish off the last few cities I needed when I lost a diplomatic victory. It seems I conquered the city with the UN right after Haptshepshut had chosen to go for diplomatic victory, so I was one of the candidates. Everyone votes against me, I don't have enough population to force a draw, and I lose.

    Closest game I have ever played, took a ton of time and was messy all the way through. Destroyed over 1700 enemy combat troops over the course of the game, lost about 400. My capitol was making a modern armor with 29 experience points every turn by the end from the 13 great generals added as instructors. I will say this; commando is a really cool promotion when you can give it to every unit you make. Great game, great game.
     
  9. jesusin

    jesusin Ant GOTM Staff

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    Location:
    Madrid
    Wow, what a fantastic game you had!!! :eek::goodjob:
     
  10. kowalski37

    kowalski37 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2008
    Messages:
    11
    Well I'm not in the same league as other people who've posted, but what the hey. I learnt some things from this game and look forward to the next BOTM. I settled 3 cities on the main island and settled another on the west for the bronze. I expected an ocean invasion way earlier than it occured, so kept too many defensive units on the main island instead of defending the western island. I was constantly behind on tech - I only lasted as long as I did due to building the Oracle and getting MC to give me triemes much earlier than the AI. I need to learn how to finance a large army - my tech fell further and further behind whilst my economy nosedived as I had to build more units to counteract the more advanced AI. In the end I ended up trapped on the main island with 3 cities endlessly producing longbowmen and caravels until I was conquered in 1940 - not much fun. In hindsight I should have put much more effort into capturing some nearby AI cites.
     
  11. Adama

    Adama Warlord

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2007
    Messages:
    135
    Well, after my first spoiler, not too much to say. I lost control of the water fairly soon after my early Trireme successes. I was no longer able to circumnavigate the main island- and I never did circumnavigate the world (just kidding – j/k). I invaded and conquered Lizzy with a feint to her neighbor first. (I razed a city, but they rebuilt it with a settler within a few turns … what did I accomplish?) I took over London, and kept it, because I was under the mistaken belief that the Dye icon on the ‘show resource’ map was actually copper at the southwest corner of the home island. I mentioned this in my first spoiler: … well… Dye does sorta’ look like copper… oh, com’on, don’t they? Humor me, the Quintessential Newb (QN). My new forum name: QN. Imagine my disbelief when I finally discovered that my whole game plan (well, somewhat) was based around a non-existent WMD? Well, no one lied to me, I just made the decision based on the best information available to me at the time… like can someone say RTDM (Read The Darn Manual) or IDCATFOMPTSARTCENAT (It Doesn’t Cost A Thimble Full Of Mule Piss To Stop And Research The Civilopedia Every Now And Then). That’s a new CIV IV acronym …

    I held London for the longest time. It was a ‘magnet’ with a big ol’ target painted on it- and it had terrible defender terrain, since all the attackers ended up in forests and on hills until I could work my way out and change that. I killed dozens of enemies in stack after stack. During a later somewhat lull, I sent my major Army off with two war generals and most of my units in a large SOD which got wasted, lost through attrition, and otherwise slaughtered before they ever captured anyone’s capital. They won a few battles, but lost the war. This led to me being pushed back off of the mainland to my island home, where I held out for a long time, but without any real chances of winning.

    I did settle the East Island, but only had one city on it for the longest time.

    What I learned: Without a coastal city on East Island, there’s no sharing of trade routes or resources, etc. I needed the iron (After all, foreign spies had replaced the copper on the southwest tip of my home island with copper-colored dye!)

    What happened: By the time I built a coastal city (wrong placement) enemy culture blocked it from my home island coastal cities.

    As a final gasp, I built a little city on my home island to the north, to connect it to the Iron on the East Island. Mistake. Enemies immediately attacked it and took it, and there was their foothold on my home island. Prior to that, since I had little or no visibility on the north end of the island, apparently enemies there had been accumulating ships and units and just waiting to ‘spot’ me …

    Also, thanks to Jesusin for the post about score. Us newbs have no real concept of increasing score. At these levels, I obviously don't even win. But, since most of us noobs stand amazed at the large six-digit scores (having never achieved one) we appreciate insights into the process.

    P.S. Edit> I went back and looked at the southwest tip resource. It wasn't Dye either; sorry to have confused anyone. It was actually the spices resource icon that I mistook for copper! Ever the Quintessential Noob ! [file this under: Darned if I would have admitted that ! ]

    A continued Happy Newest Year to Ever'yone !
    Adama
     
  12. Htadus

    Htadus A and L's dad

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Rochester, NY
    I usually use a GG for a Axe/Maceman with extra movement and combat. Send him out with couple of HA. They are awsome pillagers. :D I should try a LB next.
     
  13. Niklas

    Niklas Fully Functional GOTM Staff

    Joined:
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    10,290
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    57°47'55"N 12°09'16"E
    First GOTM I had time to play in a long long while, and it was tremendously fun! Thanks a lot for the great map DS! :thumbsup:

    It was a game filled with stupid mistakes on my part though. I guess I played reasonably well, but far too sloppy, wanting a fast-paced game.

    I conquered England easily with two axes after settling the NW copper. I pillaged Zara and Hatty to the point where I just needed enough units to take them out. It would take me a while though, during which I was teching quite fast. I took them both out with Maces, then teched to Steel and easily walked over Pacal and Toku.

    I realized my game wouldn't be competitive for anything really so I decided to try to Sushi milk my way to a good place - seems I chose the wrong game to do that :ack:, everyone had the same idea. But even there I screwed up, accidently triggering a domination win from an ugly, unlucky combination of Statue of Liberty and Sistine Chapel. I did manage to raise my "Score by winning this turn" from ~135k to ~175k before succumbing to a victory though.

    I don't completely agree with jesusin though. I found the score-milking part to be quite entertaining actually, and I would like to try it again at some point, this time with that as a decided goal from the start of the game. Though I do agree that it doesn't measure the skill of a player as such - or rather, a completely different set of skills from what is needed to win fast.
     
  14. PutCashIn

    PutCashIn Prince

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2007
    Messages:
    303
    Location:
    New Zealand
    QN, I'd have to say I've never experienced any copper/dye{spice} phase behaviour, but theres always a first time, ja?

    I submitted a retired 1800's game (read:started to lose cities), game over man, game over.

    Monarch next game is it?
     
  15. Diamond

    Diamond Chieftain

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2004
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    Location:
    Raleigh, NC
    A Fort on the coast (with a route to the resource, city) should work as well.
     
  16. DynamicSpirit

    DynamicSpirit Fear him of the pink tie Moderator GOTM Staff

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    Location:
    London, UK
    Yes, the next BtS game will be monarch.
     
  17. Homunculus

    Homunculus Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2003
    Messages:
    46
    Location:
    The Netherlands
    Game status:Cultural Victory for India
    Game date:Jul,1977AD


    and I came *this* close to losing...


    From memory..

    York (hilltop) and London were proving good stack magnets after my offensive petered out...

    Unfortunately, a little too good, as in one turn, an Egyptian stack approached London (ie. 3 or so turns out) and a Japanese AND a Ethiopian (IIRC, could've been Maya too) moved into view for York.
    York being the hilltop, I opted to defend that most heavily, even if London had the copper [I still had iron, so no big loss] and religion [alas].

    London fell.
    What I didn't expect, York fell too (it seemed like bad luck to me, anyway)


    After that, it was full-out cultural (I was hoping to keep the AI busy longer on the mainland, even after 'losing' the offensive), and praying..

    First, tried to keep the seas clean with Triremes...
    Worked until the AI started showing with Caravels...

    Then, it was a matter of fighting every invasion tooth and nail.
    Lost a city on the second island, managed to get it back with a lot of luck, even with the other citizens on the island suffering under the whip..

    Likewise, lost a city on main island for a bit, regained with difficulty.

    AI kept sending troops over every now and then, ending with a climatic battle one turn before victory, right outside Bombay (city #2), where enemy infantry and Artillery were, to great losses, defeated by my riflemen.
     
  18. unclethrill

    unclethrill Why am I up right now?

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2007
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    2,237
    Location:
    Germany
    This was the first BOTM I played in a while and as usual I got frustrated and quit (Run, Fatboy, Run).
    I settled to the left on the hill (which was useless after a little exploring). I settled a couple more cities and then saw the copper to the west. I was able to almost build a second archer to help defend before the AI rolled up with an ungodly large stack of axeman. That was the end of that folly.

    Next I moved over to the east and settled 2 cities to get the horses and Iron. I was able to hold those cites slightly longer with 3 LB in each but alas I concentrated on research and infrastructure too much and lost those cities too.

    I didn't learn my lesson until Pacal decide he wanted a piece of my main island. He won an amph. assault on what I thought was a well protected city. This was probably where I made my big mistake (other than researching instead attacking early). I got mad and beelined Muskets and then rifles. I got my city back and then went for revenge, putting everything into building my forces.

    I took back my second island and decide to move on Pacal. I moved about 15 promoted RM and 10 Knights to the north to roll Pacal and hit his first city hard. He had about 6 units in the city ranging from a Warrior to a couple LB. On the next turn he still had a couple LB and I had a couple withdrawn knights. This is the point where I jumped up, used a bit of profanity and turned off the game.

    Another wonderful ending to a BOTM.
     
  19. hellwitch

    hellwitch Prince

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2007
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    520
    Location:
    Bulgaria
    @jesusin.

    Well i overexpand almost every game but that is no so bad. For this game i had 5 cities on the start island + i settled over the copper in the West near the phants. The first axes kill England and took 1 Ethiopian city too. So at one point i was with 9 cities somewhere around 1000-700 BC. Then i use the gold from the conquest to get currency + i've builded GLH in London(a very good city which i made my new capitol later and HE city). And i was able to get out of the whole without the expensive CHs.

    I used farm economy. I dont say SE because my idea was not to research so fast but to build many units through whip and working all availiable hills.

    And yes for max points a date around 1500-1600 AD is optimal from what i have seen - Bio+Sushi is availiable then and ofcoure you need some time to grow really big in pop.
    It was possible to achieve 300K + for me too but i was too greedy to not raze cities and then i can't avoid the domination for long.
     
  20. mike p

    mike p King

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2005
    Messages:
    705
    I finished off a conquest victory in the 1820s.

    I played a very conservative game. Almost certainly could have done it quicker, but I wanted to keep overwhelming forces concentrated, rather than risk getting picked off piece by piece.

    As long as I kept naval superiority in the central sea I figured I could out tech Prince AIs.

    I tried settling one city to the north of the home island, but didn't site it on a hill, and got wasted pretty quickly, just around the time I was researching gunpowder.

    I didn't try keeping another city for a while, but did raze all of the AI cities on the coast, which meant no more possibility of being invaded. Finally eliminated Zara's last city around 1715AD.

    After that, I waited until I had about 15 or so Riflemen (around 1750 AD) to take a city from the Mayans, and waited for each continental civ's stack to arrive and kill themselves. Only after that did I start taking English cities with a smaller stack, while moving east with my main force through Mayan lands.

    Also built a fort and city on the continent just north of the single mountain connector to the NW of the starting island. Getting all of my highly promoted ships out into the ocean helped speed things up considerably.

    After that, it was pretty much just revolt to State Property and mash everything in sight.

    According to the statistics page, I lost 41 land units and 18 ships, but killed 575 land units and sunk 236 enemy ships. Didn't bother including workers, workboats, missionaries etc. And I managed to do it in under 10 hours.

    I had a lot of fun with this game, thanks to the staff for putting it on.
     

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