[BTS] BOTM 186, Justinian, Final Spoiler, Game Submitted

[Deckhand]

BOTM 186 - Justinian Epic Noble or Normal Deity ... Final Spoiler

Tell us all about your game.
Did you have fun?

Reading Requirements

Stop! If you are participating in BOTM 186 then you MUST NOT read this thread unless

• You have submitted your entry

Posting Restrictions

• Do not post any savegame file from the game. Discussions and screenshots are fine but not actual games.

 

[krikav]

Did not reach victory!
I retired the game at T276.


Sloppy writeup, no screenshots

Spoiler :

I went for Gandhi first with cuirs, but things where really tough, as he for some reason had built an ungodly amout of pikes. Had to stall attack for quite some time to get some trebs (later cannons) and rifles going too, although I took a few cities every now and then that where badly guarded.
But his capital and the double-shrine city with 60 gpt where out of reach.
When I finally had cannons ready, he had reached rifling, which made things even slower.

I did capitulate him, and turned my attention to Boudica after that, who where teching really really slowly. Took her best cities quickly and capitulated her.

Here I did a horrid mistake which made the game take a wrong turn.
After the speed with Boudica I declared on Hammy quickly and split my stack in two forces, the southern force got hit really badly by Hammys SOD which where equipped with alot of cavallery.

These losses made it impossible to get ceasefires, and impossible to capitulate him. And when I finally got peace (and got a city in the deal) he peace vassaled to Zara.

After that, I couldn't really catch up with Zara and Gilgamesh, both whom where zooming through the tech tree.
When I was at assembly line, that wasn't enough so had to continue toward bombers+tanks, but when I got there that wasn't enough either.

Theoretically, I could probably have gone for nukes then, but it's unlikley that I would have had time to stop them both, and it would have been very laborious.

I really enjoyed this game!
The barbarian action in the start really made things exciting, had to fight to survive, and the barbs also pacified the AIs somewhat, which made for a rather different game.
The map script was awesome, and I'll play it more in the future.

I do regret that I didn't settle for a peaceful culture game, or some diplo variant, as that was probably what the map called for at around 1AD, but I was too trigger happy and wanted to smash soft Gandhi with cuirs.

 

[MarleysGh0st]

Continuing the report on my Noble game...

I researched Guilds in 100 AD, which let me start building Cataphracts. I resumed my war with Boudica in 115 and accepted her capitulation in 550. Before this, Gandhi had made peace with her, without being able to liberate Delhi, which remained in Celtic hands. Two other Indian cities that had fallen to Boudica were now part of my empire. During this whole time, Gilgamesh and ZY had been fighting their own war, which came to an end in 565.

I declared against Gandhi in 565, who capitulated in 610. My next target was ZY, in 655. He capitulated in 730.

Then it was Gilgamesh's turn: attacked in 805. Hammurabi finally got off the sidelines and declared war against me, but he couldn't stop Gilgamesh from capitulating in 860. Hammy would soon follow, giving me a Conquest Victory in 920.

So, given the vast difference in difficulty levels between the Contender and Challenger saves, this is hardly anything to brag about. But might I hope that all the Deity players ran into the same difficulties that krikav did, thus keeping me in the running for a Fastest Conquest award? That would finally (after what - 10 or 11 years of playing?) earn me my first Eptathlon award.

 

[zbgayumn]

So, given the vast difference in difficulty levels between the Contender and Challenger saves, this is hardly anything to brag about. But might I hope that all the Deity players ran into the same difficulties that krikav did, thus keeping me in the running for a Fastest Conquest award? That would finally (after what - 10 or 11 years of playing?) earn me my first Eptathlon award.

Well, you managed to beat me by a fairly wide margin. Conquest victory in 1430 AD.

 

[nocho]

But might I hope that all the Deity players ran into the same difficulties that krikav did, thus keeping me in the running for a Fastest Conquest award? That would finally (after what - 10 or 11 years of playing?) earn me my first Eptathlon award.

I'm sorry to say that your Eptathlon will have to wait at least another game, I chickened out of Deity and got conquest in 505AD on Noble. Looks like we had a pretty similar game, I also Oracled CS and then went for guilds which I got a few turns into the ADs. After earlier skirmishes with Boudica, she declared again just as I was about ready to go for Zara, so changed course and went first for Boudica, followed by Ham, meanwhile built up a second invasion force for Zara, then converged on Gilga and finally Gandhi.

In retrospect I guess it may have been better to go straight Guilds and bypass CS, probably enough commerce with the golds and it being noble. So Oracling feudalism directly (straight guilds may have been a bit too much of a stretch). Then again, maybe just a horse archer rush could have functioned as well for a BC victory.

 

[Deckhand]

I'm sorry to say that your Eptathlon will have to wait at least another game.

MarleyG- I'm sure you will get it soon. You only need fastest conquest; easier to get than the Gold I don't know if I can ever get that.

6 of 7 Club:
needs Conquest: MarleysGh0st
needs Diplomatic: Solyaris
needs Religious: Kaitzilla, Krikav
needs Spaceship: zamint3
needs Gold: Ronnie1, kcdswede, Deckhand

good company

Then again, maybe just a horse archer rush could have functioned as well for a BC victory.

I would think that would be delayed because of all the hills?

 

[nocho]

I would think that would be delayed because of all the hills?

When I thought of HAs it was already too late to commit to it, but I guess the real war-pros might go that way. The hills and especially the barriers in mountains and lakes which made the map a bit of a maze would certainly make it harder, but when I had the map properly scouted out, with the cataphracts it wasn't all too slow either.

 

[MarleysGh0st]

I'm sorry to say that your Eptathlon will have to wait at least another game

<sigh>

Can I at least hope for a finish above my usual "middle-of-the-pack"?

 

[krikav]

Oh, I need a religious to gain a shiny trophy?
This game should have been close to ideal to achieve that, SPI leader and the entire world in the same religion. I recall that I could have bulbed christianity with the music artist too.

Why oooh why did you tempt me to the violent path Gandhi!!

Oh, and nice utilizing the cataphrats @MarleysGh0st I remember I had loads of fun with them last time we played Justinian.
I note that as another error on my part, because if you want to go to war on this map, holding out for cuirs doesn't make a whole lot of sense when there is an UU that can make a almost equivalent job way earlier.

 

[Kaitzilla]

I gave up on my Deity save attempt.

Too many mistakes and misclicks on an amazing chokepoint map.
Gave away Steel for free to my main target! (A proper trade would have seen superpower Ethiopia DOW Gandhi/Sumeria)

I'm convinced that a military victory is possible if the player can manage the diplomacy and tech trading properly.
It was a ton of fun.

Spoiler :

Remember, to trade monopoly techs with an AI not named Mansa after you take a vassal, the AI has to view both YOU and YOUR VASSAL as Friendly.
I was able to do it with 1 out of 3 Friendly AI in my game.

As for exactly how an AI views human+vassal diplomatically, I outlined it here:

1st, the diplomacy thresholds are as follows:
Furious: -10 diplo or lower
Annoyed: -9 diplo to -3 diplo
Cautious: -2 diplo to +2 diplo
Pleased: +3 diplo to +9 diplo
Friendly: +10 diplo or higher

Mods were created to allow hidden diplomacy modifiers to be viewed in game.

Apparently it is possible to view these in debugger mode, but I don't know how.

Eventually, Buffy 3.19.005 came out and it included all the hidden diplomacy modifiers.
This makes things much easier to test, although the AI to AI diplomacy numbers is occasionally off by 1.
I've seen a lot of -3 Cautious and +2 Pleased on the AI-to-AI diplo table, but a is always genuinely indicating Pleased and always indicates Annoyed accurately.

I see Anysense is running a mod because "we feel threatened by your large civilization" and "a first impression is a lasting one" are not normally viewable in unmodded civ.

The total relations with Peter is -24 diplo (Furious)
Peter signs Opens Borders at Cautious (-2 diplo or higher)
Peter must have good diplo with Anysense's vassal or vassals to be willing to sign Open Borders.
How much positive diplo is it exactly?


Let's run a test.
The player is -100 diplo (Furious) with an AI.
The AI signs open borders at Cautious.
The player has a vassal who is +10 diplo (Friendly) with the AI.

Does Furious + Friendly = Cautious?
Or is it merely (-100 + 2) / 2 = -49 diplo (Furious)?
How does the Master + Vassal diplomacy combine when dealing with another AI?

Using World Builder, make the player -10 (Furious) and the vassal +10 (Friendly) with the target civ.
The civ with Cautious as the threshold will sign Open Borders.
Change the player to -100 diplo (Furious) and keep the vassal +10 (Friendly)
The civ will still sign Open Borders, so the combined diplo is presumably still Cautious or higher.

Now keep the player at -100 (Furious) and change the vassal to +9 (Pleased)
The civ who only signs open borders at Cautious or higher will no longer sign open borders, so the combined diplo of Master + Vassal must be below Cautious.

Master + Vassal do not combine diplomacy numbers.
They combine thresholds; Furious + Friendly = Cautious.


Now for more complex tests.
We have an AI that signs Open Borders at Annoyed.

What if the Master + Vassal is Furious + Annoyed? Can the master sign open borders?
Nope.

What if the Master + Vassal + Vassal is Furious + Annoyed + Cautious?
Yes he signs Open Borders!
Furious + Annoyed + Cautious = Annoyed.

What if the Master + Vassal + Vassal is Furious + Furious + Cautious?
Nope.

What if the Master + Vassal + Vassal is Furious + Furious + Pleased?
Yes he signs Open Borders!

==================
Basically, the best I can figure out is you start with the diplomacy threshold indicated by Civ Illustrated.
For the last example, an AI signs Open Borders at Cautious.

Every threshold below Cautious subtract 1 and every threshold above Cautious add 1.
If the total score of Master + Vassal + Vassal + Vassal etc. is equal to 0 or above, then the AI will sign open borders.
If it is less than 0, the AI won't.

AI signs Open Borders at Cautious.
AI is Friendly with the player.
AI is Annoyed with vassal #1 of the player.
AI is Pleased with vassal #2 of the player.
AI is Furious with vassal #3 of the player.
AI is Annoyed with vassal #4 of the player.

That would be +2-1+1-2-1 = -1, so the AI won't sign Open Borders with the player.

 

[sossos]

It’s an easy Deity game, so I add five challenges for myself.

Spoiler :

Three gold, marble, access to iron and horse, neighbors are easy to handle. If it was Pangea Map, the game would be finished in 170 turns. If 0 is the easiest and 100 is the toughest, I will rank this map 20.

Challenge #1 Darkest Ages: You are not allowed to build any library.

Spoiler :

It sounds weird to most Deity maps because normally hammers are more than beakers before one knows the knowledge of Construction. But it is natural for this game not to build any library.

In my opinion, the critical path of a conquest game is Construction -> Engineering -> Rifle -> Assembly.
Liberalism is not on the list except for philosophical leaders because:
1. Castle, Nationalism and Jail are much cheaper.
2. Stealing Tech is much cheaper.
3. When a player is too advanced, there will be less benefits from tech trade.

For this game, I have no time to build expensive library before engineering. After engineering, no library is needed at all.

Challenge #2 Cataphracts Are Enough: You are not allowed to build any gunpowder units.

Spoiler :

I failed in this challenge as I still built one rifle and four cavalry.

Challenge #3 Speed Runner: You need to finish game in 180 turns.

Spoiler :

This is in terms of Pangea map with maximum turn of 500, and the maximum turn of this game is 750.

Challenge #4 Warmonger: You need to accumulate 25 or more angry faces from war

Spoiler :

With Fascism, I still have 14 angry faces which is equivalent to 28 angry faces without.

Challenge #5 Show Your Muscle: You should always fight against the strongest civilization. Don’t be a coward.

Spoiler :

The first war is against Zara Yacob because he’s the only risk. Boudica won’t attack me when she’s pleased and it’s very rare that Gandhi will declare war. The city numbers are 6 : 11 before the war around T95, and 15 : 2 after the war around T145.

The second war is to save Gandhi (8 cities) as he is almost vassal to Gilgamesh (14 cites). I was not well prepared and made mistakes such as a suicide of 20 units for flanking zero Gilgamesh’s siege weapons. The city numbers are 15 : 14 before the war around T150, and 24 : 7 after the war around T210. Many Cuirassiers and protective Grenadier are killed by the powerful Cataphracts.

The third war is to reduce Boudica’s troop numbers as it’s almost triple of mine. I made this decision because Gilgamesh almost got rifle and 50+ units of Boudica had been trapped by India’s culture.

I didn’t make either Boudica or Gilgamesh to be my vassal, but the world is more balanced with my interference. No one dares to invade other countries. As a reward, Gandhi agrees to peacefully become vassal to me when I have 29 cities.

 

[krikav]

Really nice @sossos !
I have barely scratched the surface when it comes to espionage but I'm starting to see clear benefits of that and tech stealing.
It amuses me greatly that the trait that I have dispised for much of the time I spent on civ4 (PRO) is getting some positive light from that perspective, cheaper walls and castles can be very nice.

Thanks for sharing your game!

 

[Major Tom]

Hi sossos, looking at your screenshot in spoiler one there are two points in red and green showing 97% and 51%, right and bottom corner. What is that? Never seen it before.

 

[Kaitzilla]

You should always fight against the strongest civilization. Don’t be a coward

Congratulations on the hard fought military victory Sossos!

Ya, I should not have let my Zara get so big.

 

[sossos]

@krikav
Protective is not only good because of cheap castles, but also from more powerful drafted units which is less impacted by half experience, not to mention its advantage when the player has no access to copper/horse(which happens in 25~30% of the map) but surrounded by aggressive AIs. In my opinion, protective trait is one of the two best traits for the toughest Deity map as well as expansive trait. For normal Deity games when it’s hard to have tech advantage, protective trait is also at least as good as other traits. Only for easy Deity games, protective trait is weaker.

Therefore, for the toughest Deity map, Mao is my first choice because of the two best leader traits in tough situations, the two best starting techs in Pangea map, the only one unique unit which can both kill and do collateral damage, together with the higher cultural victory odds when everything goes wrong. In addition, the door to bulbing Machinery and Engineering is also open for Mao. Finally, all of his advantages are mutually beneficial instead of cancelling off each other.

@Major Tom
It's a gadget to monitor my computer performance. Sorry I forgot to get rid of it in the screenshot.

@Kaitzilla
Thank you. I always keep your post of "Know Your Enemy" open when I'm playing. It's like a bible.