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[BTS] BOTM 187, DeGaulle, Final Spoiler, Game Submitted

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Game of the Month' started by Deckhand, Jan 1, 2020.

  1. Deckhand

    Deckhand Procrastination at its finest GOTM Staff

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    BOTM 187 - De Gaulle Prince or Deity (with Prince starting units) ... Final Spoiler

    Tell us all about your game.
    Did you have fun?

    Reading Requirements


    Stop! If you are participating in BOTM 187 then you MUST NOT read this thread unless
    • You have submitted your entry

    Posting Restrictions
    • Do not post any savegame file from the game. Discussions and screenshots are fine but not actual games.
     
  2. DynamicSpirit

    DynamicSpirit Fear him of the pink tie Moderator GOTM Staff

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    1812 AD space win.

    After 1AD, I declared on the Mongols because their proximity seemed a bit of a threat, and because they had the only nearby marble. And then pretty much the entire rest of the game was a slugfest of expanding borders through war while teching as fast as I could. I think I made the key mistake after the Genghis war of pursuing in the same direction. It started off as, my troops were on already on Egypt's borders and Egypt has the pyramids so I may as well go for it. Then Egypt brought in the Khmer as allies so I ended up finishing them off too. And the trouble was, that meant I spent almost the entire rest of the game capturing fairly mediocre land, while the Persians colonised most of the luscious grassland to the North and East. With hindsight, I really should've taken stock and shifted my focus earlier.

    And then in the 1700 ADs just before I finally conquered the Khmer, they brought Stalin into the war against me - which meant I then had to focus on the SouthEast, again leaving the Persians. That war with Russia was astonishing - just because of the sheer numbers of trebs, axes and crossbows he throw at my - umm - infantry. He actually managed in one stack attack to kill a couple of my infantry by sheer weight of numbers, although I didn't mind too much because he lost almost his entire stack of dozens of units in the process. And after that I had pretty much free reign in his territory.

    I was really surprised at how backward the AI were - even right at the end when I had tanks, I wasn't seeing any AI unit more advanced than longbows and maces.

    On the upside, Musketeers are brilliant! Maybe not so good when the AI has the tech advantage, but amazing when you have the advantage - almost impregnable against longbows outside cities and sooo fast moving.

    One other slip-up. After astronomy, I discovered the island to the NorthWest, with a barb city on it. Excited at the prospect of getting an overseas trade route, I rushed some troops over to capture it. Had my riflemen fight a valiant battle against overwhelming odds (in other words, a barb longbow) - and then promptly mis-clicked and gave the city to Carthage instead. Aaargh!

    But it made Hannibal pretty happy. And since he didn't have astronomy, and so couldn't open a trade route to the overseas city himself, it must've been somewhat crippling financially for him.

    One other minor thing... This was the game where I finally realised that workboats can sail over oceans once you have astronomy. I discovered it when I clicked to send a workboat to the location of some oil, expecting it to meander around the coast, and it promptly sailed off on a direct line through the ocean instead. I was like 'what?????' so I checked in the civilopedia (or whatever you call it) and discovered they can. I dread to think how many times in previous games, I've founded a city on some new island, then had this new city slowly, laboriously, build a workboat, not realising I could've just sent one over from the mainland instead. You learn something new every day!

    Spoiler :

    botm187-win.jpg
     
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  3. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Wonderful misclick @DynamicSpirit !
    I bet Hannibal got really suprised! "Oh, you are giving me a city... Wait! How do I get there...?" :D
     
  4. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    I realized way to late, that NOONE had horses, but this shows that the real evil here was the mapmaker, not the AIs, that where all deprived for their beloved UUs.
    Also nice that our own UU was the only two-mover on the map.
    Couldn't take advantage of this though other than picking of some stray units and stealing some workers during warfare. Did someone else do something fun?
     
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  5. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Spoiler :


    Forgot to take screenshots early on, but it was more or less just a mad expansion dash, had some troubles with barbs early on (3 spears in the same wave wasn't nice) had to 1pop whip some archers. But I got a healthy chunk of land.
    AIs where really slow to expand, must have been that they only got prince level starting units. Didn't get alfa for trade until like 300BC.

    Didn't bother much with GPersons, first Scientist made an academy, music artist did a GA.
    Took chemistry from lib because Hannibal was really rushing forward.

    Civ4ScreenShot0025.JPG
    Unit statistics after the war against GK.
    Civ4ScreenShot0029.JPG
    Both Justinian and Hannibal was friendly, so got alot of nice trades, and I even got economics first. Hannibal self-teched chemistry while I was saving up cash for steel, and I suspected he with his military flavour might have his aim on steel or mil/sci. So I made a dash for economics.
    Got a GEng earlier but this ment I could run a GA with the merchant+whatever else I had and instead rush ironworks in GKs old capital with 3 settled great generals.
    after 5 turns with rep+bur+slav+orgreligion I whipped banks+courthouses and then it was police state+vass+caste+free market+theocracy for the rest of the game (later a 2 turn revolt for state property).
    Civ4ScreenShot0031.JPG
    Ramesses folded like paper, and while I was planning on how I should kill Sury he instead peace vassaled. <3
    Darius+Isabella had a hard time up north and after killing isabella and after Stalin made Darius his vassal I closed borders with Stalin, causing him to stock up all his outdated units in persepolis.
    Civ4ScreenShot0033.JPG
    I promply declared before he could upgrade the bulk of them to rifles, but I think CR3 grenadiers would have made short work of them anyways.
    But I didn't get to shoot these fishes in their barrel, 70 (!!) units made a valiant last rush and died against my stack without killing a single one of my units.
    After Persepolis fell, I had workers ready to railroad to Darius remaining cities so all but one where whiped out the same turn.
    The following turn, Stalin wanted to capitulate, but I first killed of Darius before accepting that offer.

    Had begged from justinian to get a peace treaty prior to attacking Stalin, this was a big mistake as I had to twiddle my thumbs for 5 turns before I could attack him. :(
    Civ4ScreenShot0034.JPG

    Need more units!!
    Civ4ScreenShot0037.JPG

    I haven't played large maps before. The crowd of AIs made early diplomacy really tough. And the micromanagement of the late game got really tedious, but it also made for a more grand epic.
    All in all, a very fun map!
    I personally enjoy cannons+grenadiers and later rifles alot, and the lack of horses on the map tilted the game in that direction heavily, which I really enjoyed. :)
    Civ4ScreenShot0036.JPG


    Thanks alot for the map!
    Deity, barbs, no huts no events, normal speed. Just the way I like it! <3
    Really fun game!
     
  6. Deckhand

    Deckhand Procrastination at its finest GOTM Staff

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    Seems you both missed this for first spoiler. Now I wonder if I should delete or edit my queries in it. Discussing this at 1AD could be spoilerish and unfair to those who missed it?
     
  7. DynamicSpirit

    DynamicSpirit Fear him of the pink tie Moderator GOTM Staff

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    Yeah, at 1AD I'd only explored a pretty small proportion of the map (as you can see from the screenshot I posted in that thread), so had no way of knowing that no AI had horsies. It only well into the AD years that it slowly crossed my mind that I hadn't seen a single AI chariot or horse archer, and I started to wonder.

    Having said that, your questions in the first spoiler are vague enough that the questions don't really give anything away.
     
  8. DynamicSpirit

    DynamicSpirit Fear him of the pink tie Moderator GOTM Staff

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    Yeah that's basically what I did. I see muskets in general as more like stack-protectors - since with no CR promotions I'm assuming (not actually tried it) that they'd be pretty useless at capturing longbow-protected cities, but they are almost invulnerable to all earlier units (except knights). So I took advantage of the musketeer's high movement to go around mopping up any stray AI units that might damage me in the open field, while I left trebuchets and maces to take the cities. A but like weak-ish knights that have the advantage of not being vulnerable to spears and getting defensive bonuses.

    On a separate note, I notice from your screenshots that you got to liberalism without researching code of laws - that's something I've never seen before. And I'm guessing that also means, a relatively late civil service since you must've got to civil service via the more expensive feudalism route. Out of interest, what's the strategy behind that? I've always regarded early civil service as an essential science boost in most games.
     
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  9. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Oh, a million tiny reasons. :)

    I had Hannibal at friendly quite early in the game he was ahead in tech, and got feudalism from him.
    I didn't have my aim at lib at first, was going for engineering.
    Vassalage was more important to me, to get my units promoted.
    And caste would be completely worthless. I didn't have any religious spread for pacifism and I didn't aim for any gpersons, cities where busy working tiles and being whipped.

    I was also at 14 cities at this point, and the value of capital was abit less.
    Also, I was behind in developing the capital, as I settled on the sugar and had jungle on the grassland north, and I got severely hit early on by barbs. Also, alot of good land to settle so I didn't have a whole lot of city overlap around the capital.

    I thought my "early" warfare would leave me behind in tech, and that some AI would zoom of in tech.
    What I was anticipating was that I would conquer a few weak neighbours and get a huge chunk of land with trebs/maces/xbows and much later recover economically and start to get to tech parity again.

    But that didn't happen at all.
    Maybee it's the large map, that keeps the AIs in expansion mode for longer...? Or perhaps it was just the lack of starting units and techs that put breaks on them?

    Had a save at T141, here is the overview then:
    Spoiler :

    Tech: nothing here is normal imho. What I see as normal at T140 is some AIs very close at lib, and almost all have feud.
    Civ4ScreenShot0039.JPG

    47 raw commerce, burocracy would give me 24 more (42 beakers per turn at 100%) and 5 hammers.
    Civ4ScreenShot0040.JPG

    I had 18 workers at this time. I thought I built alot but I should have had more. Jungle is tough.
    Civ4ScreenShot0041.JPG

     
  10. MarleysGh0st

    MarleysGh0st Prince

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    Continuing with my Contender save...

    At 1 AD I was in the midst of a long war with Genghis. Construction in 25 AD let me start building catapults, and his cities started falling to my army. He still wouldn't consider capitulating until he was down to two cities in 940. At that point, I decided I'd rather finish him off. The Mongol Empire was destroyed in 1010. Along the way, Ramses had peace-vassaled to me. (It wasn't until the end of the game that I realized the extent of his bad luck. Thebes, his capital, which had become the holy city of Hinduism and Judaism, was captured by barbs in 1080 BC. Ramses could never liberate the city, so it remained in barb hands until Suryavarman captured it about the same time I was defeating Genghis.)

    Since my army was already there, I decided to make Suryavarman my next target, to secure the entire southwest of the continent. (Somewhat foolishly, I didn't pause to scout out his territory before I declared war.) His army was in Thebes. I captured that and one more city, but I saw that he still had many more units in the area than I did, so I made peace in 1170.

    I rebuilt my army (by now, including musketeers) and was contemplating when to resume the war, when he attacked me in 1470. And just as he started bombarding Thebes, my scientists discovered the secret of steel and upgraded my defending trebuchets to cannon. Sury's invading army was obliterated, and he bent the knee in 1490 without my having to take any more of his cities.

    From there, event moved much more quickly. Isabella peace-vassaled, and I attacked Darius. I took three cities, then accepted his vassalage in 1570.

    War with Justinian begins in 1580. I only have to take two of his cities before he bends the knee. Stalin is my next target in 1605. After taking two of his cities, he also capitulates. And now I've researched railroads, which are becoming much more necessary, given the long distances my reinforcement must move to the front.

    I declare war against Hannibal in 1620. Even before my stacks have arrived on his front, my new vassal Stalin can skirmish with him, and the clock can start ticking towards the moment Hannibal will negotiation with me. I capture one of his cities in 1645, and Hannibal capitulates.

    Now with 62.45% land (and much more pop) I've over the domination limit, and I'm afraid the computer will randomly decide to credit me with the wrong victory condition. I return every city I can to my vassals, but that still leaves me with 60.16% land, a fraction over the limit. It's nail-biting time as I end the turn, but the coin toss favors me, and I'm given a Conquest Victory in 1650. :cool:
     
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  11. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Nice! And 10 years before me too. :)
     
  12. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

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    This map was a ton of fun!

    Saw Stalin coming, so I switched to his religion to barely get Pleased and begged 10:gold:.
    Then 10 turns later when he attacked I had City Defender 3 musketeers in Castles and watched him commit suicide. :)

    Had an epic battle with the Mongols. So many macemen!

    Egypt was a nightmare.
    I captured the capital with my main army, and then the next turn the AP forced me into peace and my army was completely surrounded by Egypt's culture.
    That meant 10 turns of my main army not going anywhere. :wallbash:
    I should have defied the vote!
    Worse, 2 turns before I could DOW Egypt again, he peace vassaled to the very large Persian Empire who I have a 4 turn Peace Treaty with.
    I later got my revenge by wiping out Egypt completely and stealing 1 Persian city before the rifles could counter attack.

    Liberalism->Steel in 1000AD and rode cannons all the way to a conquest win on the Deity map in 1615.
    4xp Galleons with Drydocks were very useful!

    I loved being the only civ with 2:move: units.
    I abused the hell out of it by pillaging roads, luring stacks into traps, and rushing weakly defended cities and razing them to really open up a front.

    14 cities, nice!

    Here is my T140 empire if you want to see it.
    Spoiler :

    At the critical moment, I went Aesthetics->Literature->Code of Laws->Civil Service->Engineering I think.
    Getting stone and lots of fail gold was the only way to get ahead of the pack on Deity, and Engineering and later Steel were the main war techs.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2020
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  13. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    @Kaitzilla
    We seem to have had a roughly similar game, nice to see that I'm behind at every turn, looks like there is still so much to learn. :)
    I love how your roads are planned, nice smooth net across the empire. How many turns ahead are you planning workermovements?

    I won Dom at 1660, not nearly as nice at comq in 1615.
    Isn't that almost HoF material..?

    Lib chemistry at 1080 for me. :)
    I could have made much better use of failgold, don't think I utilized the philo+paper+CoL stone wonders at all, but I was quite boosted by the marble ones though.
    Do you have some routine where you whip units/spies/missionaries for overflow around the empire, rotating which city catches overflow?

    Really well played!
     
  14. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

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    So... After 1 AD, I had the fine realization that I could chop the Mausoleum of Mausoles in Orleans :
    Spoiler :

    Meanwhile, I had lost the race to the Hanging Gardens by two turns but the MoM made up for it.
    Used my Spy from the Great Wall to trigger a golden age, researched Music to secure another easy one. Research instantly jumped above 450bpt.

    Then, the plan was to invade a neighbour, probably Genghis, with Macemen... They got Feud and Machinery, so I waited on an Engineering trade, with the objective to follow-up on a Liberalism -> Steel slingshot.
    Large map, no horses : I want cannons and, even, I want railroads after that.
    So I slowbuilt maces, being quite conservative about the whip but switching into Vassalage and Theocracy when it became available.

    Late 800 ADs, I'm ready to invade and I switch target from Genghis to Justinian. Genghis has Dowed Persia multiple times and has too many units that are too well promoted. Justinian is soft. Also, the Khmer are strong.
    Unit movement is a thing : there are 3 directions we can go (also Darius, Isabella) and I'd hope to not turn back my army after the first war is done.
    So Justinian -> Stalin -> Hannibal is conceivable.
    Finally, the invasion route against Justinian is comfortable. It would be a plain mess against Genghis, since we have very close borders accross 15+ tiles.
    Spoiler :




    Lib Steel 1000 AD. Justinian caps with 5 cities in 1050 AD. I take the capitulation asap, since I do not want to delay the next DoWs.
    Spoiler :


    Stalin falls after 4-6 cities are done. Hannibal has Rifling. I turn back against Persia, the war lasts 2 turns :o
    1310 AD. Been doing a little bit of this, a little bit of that : Oxford is done and I'm building Banks to build the Wall Street in Constantinople (50g shrine).
    Also got my 3rd golden age.
    Spoiler :


    At this point, I simply want to chain cap the remaining AIs. Unfortunately, I think I've got to DoW the Khan (him again), who has grenadiers, rifles and a stack of 50.
    Despite my highly promoted units we trade his cities for a while. Karakorum and then Turfan :
    Spoiler :



    ^ Cause the guy didn't actually station his stack into Karak... He put 4 guys in there and headed straight to Turfan, which he stormed.
    He'll cap after those units are cleared, then Ramesses doesn't even have Printing Press. Thebes falls, he caps, I get some culture and Domination is triggered 1510 AD.

    I think about half the units I killed and more than half what I lost was against Genghis Khan. Had so many promotions before that the first 3 wars went real easy. I think I lost less than 15 units to take down Justinian, Stalin and Darius.

    Spoiler :




    End screen with invincible macemen :
    Spoiler :


    Had my fun, ggs ! Thanks for the map.
     
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  15. zbgayumn

    zbgayumn Emperor

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    Well, that was quite a slog!

    The end result was a Domination victory in 1810 AD.

    It got started with getting Iron to the NE and getting Maces long before anyone else. I was thinking about attacking GK, when he saved me the trouble and DoW'd me instead. I took like 5 of his 9 cities and then vassaled him. I then sent my armies to the opposite front to attack Justinian. I was doing well there, but then I hit his capitulation threshold. I wanted Domination, not Conquest, so I kept taking cities and soon he vassaled himself to Carthage to bring them into the war. That made things dicey because Carthage had a huge army and had been at war with Persia, so he had a number of troops nearby. I took a few more Byzantine cities before Hannibal lost enough units attacking me to take a peace deal.

    Because Hannibal was now a huge obstacle to my east, I marched my armies (most of them) back to the west and prepared to attack Egypt who was vassaled to Khmer. Instead, Persia DoW'd me out of nowhere and I had to send those units north. The protracted war with Hannibal meant that Persia had really ramped up their army. I lost a city for 1 turn, I think, while I hit them along the western side of the front. A few turns into this war is when I finally got Rifling. This time I made sure to capture two cities on the same turn and then vassal Cyrus before he could throw himself on someone else's mercy.

    After that, I kept a smallish stack in the NW to take out Spain. The majority I sent back to attack Egypt/Khmer. I had two stacks to the SW at that point, the one in the NW, and I started sending many of my new units to a rally point in the east. The fight against Egypt/Khmer was where the game really started to drag. So many units to move, so many enemy units. Some of them got to Muskets, but mostly it was Maces and LBs. The war in the SW really turned into a rout when I got Steel and upgrade trebs to cannons. As I killed off Egypt and started on the Khmer, I decided that I would have to attack Stalin to make sure I hit 60%. My stack to the east was like 40 rifleman & cannons by then, so I sent them in. But not before begging 1 gold off Hannibal so that he would stay on the sidelines. He was the only one that had Grenadiers. Again, the Russian stacks were ridiculous, but I beat them down. As I captured the 2nd city there, and finished off the Khmer, I hit the Dom limit. (btw, Khmer vassaled themselves to Russia before they died, but I had already declared on Russia by then)

    So, anyone have tips on how to finish off enemies without having them bring another civ into the war by vassaling themselves?

    As for Musketeers, I did build a lot of them and they're not bad on offense, but clearly not as good as CR3 maces. I picked off wounded enemy units and got back into a city or a stack. I eventually used them to make my super-medic GGs.
     
  16. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Nice slugfest @zbgayumn !

    I get suprised by my targets vassaling themselves from time to time too.
    The only remedies I know if, is to be pleased (or friendly) with the potential master(s), so that they won't accept the vassal and send a DoW to you.
    That, and having peacetreaty with the potential master(s).
     
  17. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

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    There are plenty of factors at work but they come down to :
    - your target must be willing to capitulate (not necessarily to you). Power rating is the main factor ; being a land target halves (?) the pre-requisite ;
    - your target must be willing to peace vassal : they need a diplo stance that is high enough with the potential master ;
    ^ These two combine with each other. Diplo stance of the master towards them doesn't matter.
    - the potential master must be willing to DoW you. Diplo stance is the main factor ; power rating can be ("We're afraid of your enemies").

    So, the main thing to do, if you do not have a war ally (who would be able to vassal them with war success and enforce a peace treaty), is to check the diplo stances :
    - your own : who is willing to DoW you ?
    - their own : who are they willing to cap to ?
    You can then stop the DoW/cap by signing a peace treaty (1g beg).

    If you do have a war ally, most likely you need to bribe them off when a combination of the following becomes true :
    - they acquire enough war success (a couple of city captures) ;
    - your target falls low enough (power rating).
    ^ Requirements halved if the two AIs are land targets with each other.
    Pretty hard to find the "sweet spot", there. Better be cautious. War success can go up very fast without your knowledge if they fight in the field and you do not scout it.

    :)

    Nice game, lots of running around is a danger on this map. Gives the AIs that much more time to tech up.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2020
  18. socralynnek

    socralynnek Civ & Hattrick addict

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    Oh, no one mentioned a Diplo win, so I might have the fastest one ;-)

    Diplo win in 1908 (or so), Contender save.

    Prepared early for being attacked by Genghis, so I was prepared and took some of his cities (don't remember whether I was the one declaring war)

    But during that time, Stalin was brought into the war and later on Egypt declared. Was able to fight them off, but at some point I had to accept capitulation by Genghis (needed to rebuild units...)
    I was surprised how long it took until Karakorum couldn't flip anymore... (well if you don't play Civ4 for a few years, some things get lost)

    Spain became vassal of Persia quite early.
    Persia and Carthage had an ok tech rate for this level.

    I decided to go after Egypt (same as with Karakorum, I had to put quite some units into Memphis to keep the city when Egypt capitulated) and then Khmer.

    Made a mistake making peace with Hannibal, who declared on me a few turns earlier, without seeing that Khmer vassaled to him...
    ...so before I finished off Khmer, I took some Persian cities, which was a little more costly.

    Then I took some Russian cities, then some Byzantine until I finally could win via Diplo...

    First diplo chairman vote was even won by Byzanz, so only until most vassaled to me it was enough...


    Didn't get the balance with being tech leader and expanding via war too well, missed some wonders, but was tech leader throughout the game anyway.
     

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