[BTS] BOTM 190: Gilgamesh, Immortal - First Spoiler - 1AD

[DynamicSpirit]

BOTM 190: Gilgamesh, Immortal - First Spoiler - 1AD



Use this thread to tell us what happened in your game, up to 1AD

Reading Requirements
If you are participating in BOTM 190, then you MUST NOT read this thread unless EITHER

• You have reached at least 1 AD in your game, OR
• You have submitted your entry

Posting Restrictions

• Do not disclose ANY events or information gained post 1 AD.
• Do not reveal your final result if that happened after 1 AD.
• Do not discuss the location of resources that may not show up before 1 AD (Iron is OK, coal and oil are not)
• Do not post any savegame file from the game. Discussions and screenshots are fine but not actual games

 

[MarleysGh0st]

I settled in place and by 1 AD I have seven cities. I've contacted Monty and DeGaulle; because they're both Buddhist, I've also converted for the diplomatic bonus.

Since I'm still in search of a Conquest medal for my Eptathlon, of course that's my goal. Now if all the Deity-level players could just try for something else...

 

[Powerfaker]

SIP. Slow start because of just 1 reasonable powertile in the cap. Headed for Bronze + settler at size 2 working corn farm + mine, finished with a whip. City 2 much more early strength with fish + wet wheat (Cre really shines on this map). Health never was an issue. Resources +3 lifted by Gran to +5 etc was gained early enough

Current state:
- 9 cities, 2 settlers walking, a 3rd completes this turn. That leaves 2-3 more spots to be filled on the North shore. City 6 claimed the gems site.
- I have a workboat scouting which contacted 5 AI. 2 of them just signed peace. I assume they were the ones to receive a GG each.
- Built GLH 650BC
- Just out of Bureau/HR switch + academy 4T earlier, so the super bureau cap has lifted off.

@MarleysGh0st
This game conquest/dom seems the only way to me. I promise to try to avoid conquest and reach dom instead (rather imm player than deity)

 

[Anysense]

I have already submitted conquest

Played rather hastily and sloppy, though, so you still have a good chance.

 

[Anysense]

Moved warrior 1SW, saw wet wheat and moved settler 2S to settle with all three resources in BFC. Next turn warrior revealed fish, which would become unavailable should I settle as planned. 1E of the cows would have been optimal, but there could be more seafood, so I settled 1NE of cows. Of course, it turned out that there was an island near that fish.

 

[Anysense]

Built GLH on t76, by t108 had 10 cities. Met 3 civs and WK was at war with someone who I did not know. It looked as if all or most of the continents had boat connection and I can't get decent setup for space on such a small island. I'd sooner kill myself than bother with diplomacy in such circumstances and decided that the most simple solution was to just go and kill everybody else.

 

[Xcalibrator]

Immortal save, SIP--Very happy that Lymo was right about that hidden hill in the BFC. At 1AD I have 10 cities, 42 pop, with another city to settle next turn. WK has 730 score/9 cities, French 606/8, me 591/10, and Aztecs 510/8. I was very relieved to get a late (400 BC) GLH and should have the Colossus in 6 turns. Other Wonders went GWall 1560, ToA 1280, SH 1040, Oracle 950 (all of those to an unknown civ), and Mids 500 to France. Barbs got the nice spices/gems site to the SE. Feeling pretty good with the Water Wonders (though sad about no stone for Moai). I'd like to try an early (for me) attack on Monte--nice that he only has one way, by water, to get at us. This looks like a fun game.

 

[undead]

Contender save.

Spoiler Detailed Notes Until T81 :

(a few test games with a test map showed that fast expansion like in the 2 previous BOTMs would cause serious maintenance problems; moreover, AI land attacks are brutal compared to archipelago/island maps; building catapults and vultures quickly might succeed if a neighbor is there; barbarians are quite active without the tech penalty, should include it in the test map)

T0 SiP to allow a city by the coast and river (and fast worker build of course). Researching pottery. Building a worker.
T3 Found gold NW. Found an island to go with the SE fish. The "oversea" trade commerce would be nice, but is it worth researching fishing and sailing?
T4 A second fish for the island. Still no neighbor.
T6 A mountain pass. Those mountains could be good for fogbusting (from a city).
T7 An obvious (but modest) future fish city to the E.
T8 Still no neighbor. Starting to feel a bit isolated.
T10 This is looking more and more like an island. The warrior survived a wolf attack. Maybe the longbowman can conquer the future barbarian cities. Maybe fishing and sailing and the GLH is a priority after all.

(updating test map)

Next morning: maybe there is a barbarian city near the mountain pass?

(played a test game with an updated test map, including the tech penalty for barbarians)

T10 Researching mining, building a warrior.
T16 No city near the mountain pass.
T33 Definitely an island.
T58 Just as I land a settler on the W island, a workboat of Montezuma appears! There will be some commerce after all.
T70 Trade route is opened.
T79 Met De Gaulle.
T80 Secured the GLH.
T81 Trade route with De Gaulle is opened. Barbarians are probably blocking though.
...

T115 1AD 8 cities (one near Montezuma). Met 4 civs. With the GLH, "gold" is OK, I guess, for now. Trying to build a forge and the Colossus (a bit late).

 

[nocho]

I also settled in place. Ordered first settler at size 2 to found a coastal spot for the GLH asap as it was soon apparent that we were on an island. Got that exactly 1000BC. At 1AD I'm at 13 cities (52 pop), 10 on the main island, 1 on the small island SE and 2 next to Monty. The gem/spice spot and then a barb city directly to the east of Monty that was defended by 3 warriors which were beaten by my single vulture. Also got lucky with gold popping in the capital and with a gem to the north on main island. Teched to currency and MC, now heading for CS. Met 4 AIs, seems Wang is getting a beating from Ragnar. Adopted buddhism to befriend Monty and de Gaulle.

 

[Tonny]

I settled in place like most. Built TGL at 1080BC going for trades routes economy. Early game I thought it was an isolation game, so I went straight for Optics, ignoring Mathematics and Alphabet.

Spoiler tech path :

Pottery-Mining-BW-Fishing-Sailing-Masonry-AH-Writing-Mysticism-Polytheism-Priesthood-Monarchy-IW-Metal Casting-Compass-Machinery
Optics due in 2 turns.

Spoiler state of empire :

- 9 cities (total pop 38), 7 on mainland (5 are coastal), 1 south of gems and 1 on the tiny island.
- 9 granaries
- 5 libraries
- 4 lighthouses
- 4 forges
- 1 barracks (1 coming next turn)

- only 5 workers
- 18 warriors as MP
- 1 3xp sword (2 cities will be producing more and more, another city is still working on a Forge and will build Barracks later for more units.)
- 3 vultures
- initial longbow has become a marching medic1

- building 2 settlers now (ready in 4 and 6 turns)

- first gs ready in 3 turns, second in 27 turns if I stay out of Caste.

- teching at 184/turn with -65 at 100%

Spoiler AI meetings :

At some point I met Monty first (875BC). Although not in pure iso, I kept going for fast Optics. I had just finished Monarchy.
Up to 1AD 3 more civs were encountered. None of them have researched Alphabet yet.

 

[Fine_Distinction]

So far I am doing surprisingly well - still alive - never played BOTM so far on a level higher than Monarch, so I played it so far in one session, without any test games, since I expected to get killed quickly anyway. The beginnings were tough, barbarian animals killed both my warrior fortified in the forest and my Drill II Longbow! Both at odds that should be very favorable to me. Is it somehow related to Immortal? Are barbs more vicious than their strength indicates?

At the moment I am doing very well - 12 cities by 1D, although many size 1. But my army is #7, so it can end quickly . I settled only one city on another continent and did not scouted much, so still do not have a long-term plan for this game. I am also nowhere close to where some of you are in this game.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

The beginnings were tough, barbarian animals killed both my warrior fortified in the forest and my Drill II Longbow! Both at odds that should be very favorable to me. Is it somehow related to Immortal? Are barbs more vicious than their strength indicates?

Hi @Fine_Distinction, well done on getting so far on this high difficulty level.

I believe you do get bonuses against the barbs so you can defeat them more easily on lower difficulty levels, whereas on higher levels like immortal you don't get the bonuses so you vs the barbs is a 'fair' fight: Warrior against warrior with no promotions or defensive bonuses etc. for example would be a 50% chance of victory.

But I'm pretty sure that the victory odds the game shows you are correct, no matter what the difficulty level - they take into account all bonuses etc. Losing your longbow(!!!!) is likely to just be exceptionally bad luck. Remember, even if the odds say that you have a 99% chance of victory, that's still a 1% chance that you'll lose. And if you play enough games, sooner or later, you will lose a fight on 99% odds. Even if it says, 100% chance of victory, there'll still be some rounding error there so a very small (perhaps less than 1 in a thousand) chance of losing. If I'm about to attack and the computer says something like, 98% chance of victory, then before clicking to attack, I will momentarily consider, will it be a total disaster for me if that 2% defeat happens. And if a defeat on that one battle would be totally game-changing, but not engaging would just be a minor inconvenience, then I probably won't attack even on such good odds. (Obviously though, situations where losing a single battle would be severe enough to be game-changing are pretty rare.)

 

[Fine_Distinction]

Hi @Fine_Distinction, well done on getting so far on this high difficulty level.

I believe you do get bonuses against the barbs so you can defeat them more easily on lower difficulty levels, whereas on higher levels like immortal you don't get the bonuses so you vs the barbs is a 'fair' fight: Warrior against warrior with no promotions or defensive bonuses etc. for example would be a 50% chance of victory.

But I'm pretty sure that the victory odds the game shows you are correct, no matter what the difficulty level - they take into account all bonuses etc. Losing your longbow(!!!!) is likely to just be exceptionally bad luck. Remember, even if the odds say that you have a 99% chance of victory, that's still a 1% chance that you'll lose. And if you play enough games, sooner or later, you will lose a fight on 99% odds. Even if it says, 100% chance of victory, there'll still be some rounding error there so a very small (perhaps less than 1 in a thousand) chance of losing. If I'm about to attack and the computer says something like, 98% chance of victory, then before clicking to attack, I will momentarily consider, will it be a total disaster for me if that 2% defeat happens. And if a defeat on that one battle would be totally game-changing, but not engaging would just be a minor inconvenience, then I probably won't attack even on such good odds. (Obviously though, situations where losing a single battle would be severe enough to be game-changing are pretty rare.)

Hey DS, thank you for such a quick answer! I did not realize that bonuses against animals and barbarians in general are difficulty level specific, I was rarely loosing a fight with animals with a decent unit or one on a good defensive terrain, so I was surprised, but I normally play on Monarch, or even Prince/Noble. I do not know exact odds, since both times I was attacked. Once it was a 3.0 bear vs 3.6 warrior (fully fortified in a forest). That time, I was a bit worried, but decided to leave a warrior, since he was fully fortified. With Longbow, I was really surprised. I got him to Drill II (2 extra first strikes) and attacked a strength 2 lion on a non-defensive terrain. The longbow won ofc, but somehow it got him to 2.9 and he was on a plain. Then the other strength 2 lion attacked and he was gone !!! In spite of 2 extra first strikes and 2.0 vs 2.9 fight . But agree that it is all probabilistic, just bad luck that I was not used to with animals

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Yeah that sounds like pure bad luck with the longbow.

FWIW once the longbow was down to strength 2.9, the drill II might not have helped much. In my experience, in situations where you're relatively evenly matched against your opponent, drill promotions don't do a lot - they give you something but not nearly as much as the +10% strength you get from the combat promotions. Where drill comes into its own is if you are massively, massively, stronger than your opponent - something like a rifle against an axeman for example. In that situation, where you have an almost 100% chance of winning, drill makes it much more likely that, when you win, you'll do so without sustaining any damage at all. That can be really useful if you have one strong unit fighting a large number of much weaker ones all attacking the same turn - because you probably won't lose any strength on the first attacks, thereby making it less likely that you'll be overwhelmed by sheer force of numbers. But, as I say, you must've got pretty unlucky with the lions.

 

[Xcalibrator]

Nice explanation of Drill, DS. And it's probably even correct!

 

[neilmeister]

First game in a looooong while, SIP, Oracled Confused and built GLH in 800bc. I think I had 7 or 8 cities at 1ad.... bit slow but I wasn't prepared to settle crap cities without food/resources.... not sure if that was wise or not.

Just started gearing up for war with Monty

As usual with my first game back in a while I am just in builder heaven.... will probably head for the stars

edit: and a fog busting unpromoted warrior of mine defeated a barb Axe..... 99.2% odds apparently!

 

[Fine_Distinction]

First game in a looooong while, SIP, Oracled Confused and built GLH in 800bc. I think I had 7 or 8 cities at 1ad.... bit slow but I wasn't prepared to settle crap cities without food/resources.... not sure if that was wise or not.

Just started gearing up for war with Monty

As usual with my first game back in a while I am just in builder heaven.... will probably head for the stars

edit: and a fog busting unpromoted warrior of mine defeated a barb Axe..... 99.2% odds apparently!

Never saw a barbarian axe this game - maybe the lions that ate my poor longbow were costume-wearing axes would at least explain it

 

[Frederiksberg]

Good to have an immortal game during the lock-down. At 1AD I have built 10 cities, among those one on the island and the gems city next to Monty. I have traded for ivory with Wang Kon (adopted Confu to get this trade) and I'm gearing up for an elepult war against Monty. Like most other players I went for the GLH and it's so far the only wonder I have. I will most likely head for a domination or a space victory depending on how the game develops.

 

[Fine_Distinction]

Yeah that sounds like pure bad luck with the longbow.

FWIW once the longbow was down to strength 2.9, the drill II might not have helped much. In my experience, in situations where you're relatively evenly matched against your opponent, drill promotions don't do a lot - they give you something but not nearly as much as the +10% strength you get from the combat promotions. Where drill comes into its own is if you are massively, massively, stronger than your opponent - something like a rifle against an axeman for example. In that situation, where you have an almost 100% chance of winning, drill makes it much more likely that, when you win, you'll do so without sustaining any damage at all. That can be really useful if you have one strong unit fighting a large number of much weaker ones all attacking the same turn - because you probably won't lose any strength on the first attacks, thereby making it less likely that you'll be overwhelmed by sheer force of numbers. But, as I say, you must've got pretty unlucky with the lions.

Hi DS, indeed a great explanation! I never had a good understanding of drill promotion, other than it gives you extra first strikes and that it supposed to works especially well with stronger archry units, such as longbows and crossbows.

I was really curious what odds of my poor longbow were, but unfortunately game keeps only most recent combat odds and i do not have saves from that time. I tried in Worldbuilder, normally it takes about 5 lions to kill a LB

I remember a couple years ago there was an online calculator of combats odds, but I cannot find it anymore, only couple of Excel files that seem defunct.

Does anybody has a link to an online combat odds calculator? It was only one-on-one combat and was not telling you how badly wounded your units are likely to be, but it was still giving you a good ballpark estimation.

I know I could do World Builder sims, but it is much more laborious, although also more accurate, I know.

(goes back to work)

 

[Anysense]

I remember a couple years ago there was an online calculator of combats odds, but I cannot find it anymore, only couple of Excel files that seem defunct.

You mean this one? http://civ.zulan.net/vodka/
Very handy for quick evaluations and planning.