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[BTS] BOTM 192: Tokugawa, Deity - First Spoiler - 1AD

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Game of the Month' started by DynamicSpirit, May 18, 2020.

  1. DynamicSpirit

    DynamicSpirit Fear him of the pink tie Moderator GOTM Staff

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    BOTM 192: Tokugawa, Deity - First Spoiler - 1AD



    Use this thread to tell us what happened in your game, up to 1AD. How did you survive deity (did you survive?) Or did you play the adventurer save?

    Reading Requirements
    If you are participating in BOTM 192, then you MUST NOT read this thread unless EITHER
    • You have reached at least 1 AD in your game, OR
    • You have submitted your entry

    Posting Restrictions
    • Do not disclose ANY events or information gained post 1 AD.
    • Do not reveal your final result if that happened after 1 AD.
    • Do not discuss the location of resources that may not show up before 1 AD (Iron is OK, coal and oil are not)
    • Do not post any savegame file from the game. Discussions and screenshots are fine but not actual games
     
  2. Fine_Distinction

    Fine_Distinction Warlord

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    It was almost my first deity game, I did one or two test games with Toku and watch Lain's Toku deity video, but that was it, I had not much hopes of becoming a deity player overnight, so I approached is as a purely educational experience and expected to be killed really soon (Intro was indeed asking, will you settle more than one city?). So generally, I did much better than expected - did not get killed before 1AD (according to the rules not disclosing what happened later, nor implying I did get killed :lol:). But other than that, no good news - I discovered Shaka near me early on and prioritized settling a city blocking his expansion and claiming copper, but still settled at a "respectable" distance to avoid annoying him with unnecessarily with "our closed borders sparked tensions".



    But at this point game seemed lost already - Shaka had much more land to expand to - and many more cities. I also did not have any effective means to keep him happy with me - I did not go after any religion for obvious reasons (teching most necessary workers techs takes forever on deity), no religion spread to me, I had no tech or spare resource to give to him. I have read somewhere that Aesthetics is a wonderful trade bait for AIs at higher levels, but it did not worked for me at all. I really wanted Alphabet, to catch up with AIs by stealing some techs, but went after Aesthetics instead to get more techs as trades, Did not worked at all, I was about half through Aesthetics - or less - when all AIs I knew already researched it :cry: So the only good news was that I had more than one city and managed to block a piece of land for later expansion. But I still have no idea how to leverage it into a future lead? :crazyeye::crazyeye::crazyeye::crazyeye::crazyeye: Was I too slow/unlucky and others blocked Shaka even earlier? Or going Sailing super early was a way to go, to find more place for expansion? That is the whole reason I took a deity save (I am not eligible to submit adventurer's version) to see an eventual replay, but that will be a month or more from now.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 19, 2020
  3. Powerfaker

    Powerfaker Warlord

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    Played this up to ± 100AD and gave up.

    From the earliest turns it felt like a game with no prospect of surviving/winning.
    I started by moving the initial settler inland on the corn, except there was no inland, so ended by the rice on the coast (killing a fish in the process).
    My 1st built settler came 2 turns too late to claim the chokepoint (hill) in the west. Well, at least I could settle the gem spot now instead, but the empire would be totally exposed to Shaka now. He moved in 4 archers right away and kept building up more. For more than 2 millennia it appeared he was just taking his national security very serious. And it worked, I didn't attack with my single warrior.

    Around 1AD my empire started to look better. Got some techs for Aest. Filled my 2 border cities with 3 axes and a spear each (a compromis of what I could afford and was necessary). Managed to built GLib. Music almost in for a next round of tech trades (GA long gone to Justy). Then when I didn't expect it any more Shaka did DoW after all, invaded with 15 units and also sailed in units with 3 galleys. I tried to reinforce 1 city with the other ones units which got killed. Now both border cities were a lost cause. I could make a stand at the capital. But all my efforts of tech catch up would vaporize in a resources consuming wrestling effort. So resigned before trying.

    It seems to me the game was lost when I couldn't secure the chokepoint. Besides that I had no idea how I could ever win this game.

    As for religion I could have joined Buddhism with Shaka, Justinian and Surya. Except Hammurabi and Saladin were the ones to trade with, so I stayed neutral. I don't think shared reli alone would have saved me from a DoW.
     
  4. Fine_Distinction

    Fine_Distinction Warlord

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    Hi Powerfaker, I am impressed that you got a Wonder and had Aesthetics in time for good trades, respect! But I agree that the game does not appear to be winnable, other than perhaps by a religious victory? I did manage to settle a chokepoint city, but it does not make things much better, just allows you to survive longer. Even with the choke city, we have space for about 7 cities - while Shaka has 12+, etching bonuses, military superiority etc. In my game, he built Pyramids early, used Representation to further accelerate his research and then kept pumping units with Police State ... I also replayed the game, wondering if it was even theoretically possible to grab more and than the choke point city. In my game, it was not :cry: At turn 7, Shaka has already a city next to the choke point (his second city) with two archers fortified inside. So there is 0 chance I can take it with my single warrior and no chance to have more units at turn 7. I am very curious if others were successful somehow earning tech or military lead with this land disparity? Again, AP victory seems to only possible, if you find a way to persuade Shaka somehow not to kill you :lol: :crazyeye: and of course getting AP first is another condition that may not be easy to achieve ...
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2020
  5. MarleysGh0st

    MarleysGh0st Prince

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    Having studied some of Lain's YouTube videos, I decided to give the Deity save a try. Following the pregame discussion, I changed my mind about settling in place and went 2W to grab the gems. After noticing the copper between me and Shaka, I gambled on claiming that with my third city in 1360 BC, hoping that he didn't have any other metal. No such luck. In 1200 BC, I noticed he was plotting. He attacked at the end of that turn; three impi and two archers crushed my two warriors and razed Tokyo with ease.

    I held him off until 1 AD, when I resigned. I had managed to build two more cities, but defending against his onslaught was clearly a futile effort. I thought my axemen could outmatch his impi, then he brought in some chariots. And then swords. There was a nice barbarian city to my east, controlling the ivory. I would have loved to capture that, but couldn't spare the troops from my western front. In anyone does win at this level, I'll be fascinated to read the report.



    So, for fun, I replayed the game with the Adventurer/Prince difficulty. This one is going better, but still not without its challenges. I built five cities by 1 AD, but Shaka still attacked in 450 BC. I managed to take a border city, then gave it back to him for peace, hopefully giving me time to reach the tech for samurai.
     
  6. Powerfaker

    Powerfaker Warlord

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    @Fine Distinction
    No, you cannot snatch the whole peninsula. I meant the hill 1E of copper, kinda the doorstep to your own area. The thing is when you seeze that spot you're much safer, but it is also a high economic price. It's far from your cap, and you won't be working the gems until the next settler comes. It probably pushes GLib out of grasp, sort of Yin and Yang effect. Unless you settled the cap 2W. So maybe that's the golden move. Well, that is only to survive of course. Another thing is that Shaka might attack much sooner when you hold that spot.
    Maybe for winning best chances are AP indeed. That would require focus on that from the beginning. Maybe worth retrying the game for learning purposes.
     
  7. Fine_Distinction

    Fine_Distinction Warlord

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    Yeah, but as I said, snatching that spot does not solve your problems, just prolong misery ... and the main economic cost is actually not a maintenance, but to that to stay alive you have to re-orient your economy to produce mostly military units since Shaka would declare in BC and keep throwing SoD after SoD at you ;(. At least it happened in my game.

    I was considered settling 1st city near gems, since it was brought up in the pre-game discussion, but in my test games it seemed that SIP is better. Of course, I did not know about Shaka then and had to decide at turn 0. I was also tried to replay the beginning a couple times, but I never get to settle a chokepoint now, lol, so maybe I actually played quite well the original game. Shaka also declares on me at very different dates, sometimes even earlier than in the game, when I got the chokepoint city :crazyeye: Can somebody recommend a good reading on how AI decides to declare on you? Is it military powers, border tension? It even seemed to me that scouting too close to his territory early on was a factor? or is it highly random? at least one person did not get declared on at all in BCs, would be nice :).
     
  8. shakabrade

    shakabrade Praise Vivec!

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    This....game....makes....me....sad.

    Settled 2W as it is a faster start due to Japanese starting techs. Development was okayish but having Shaka as a neighbor made me sit on the needles the whole time. I could have settled the choke hill, but decided to settle Horse+Clams+Gems site, on a hill as a 3rd city. Lower maintenance and close if reinforcements are needed. Shaka started amassing units around 1000BC and declared around 500BC. But then he just kept getting back and forth until he assembled some 15 units in the stack. Fortunately, he had 2 SoDs not yet merged and attempted to go and pillage my gems. I managed to kill his 3-4 units with my Axes and he was willing to talk. I gave him Aesthetics for peace. He went on to declare on Sury. But now I have dozen of units eating my gpt and no development for some time due to defense and I just need to start building cats and War Elephants to take what I can from Shaka. But this is too late and my army has too many Archers and Axes. Shaka will have Longbows and Maces in 10is turns most definitely. The AIs are fast, most have 10 cities and they have a lot of riverside. BTW, this map is actually Large.

    I think this map is totally luck dependent for any non-cheese as Shaka can DoW you any time and you have to be ready all the time. On the other hand, his capital is too far away and on a hill for an earlier war. I wish I was daggered between 1800BC and 1200BC. I could have retaliated from that position without over committing to defense as couple of Archers and an Axe are more than enough. There is not enough commerce on the map to support units you will not use. The probable way to win the map is going straight to the Elepult, leaving yourself exposed until 500BC, but that is just gambling. If I could have afforded some scouts earlier, I would have realized that cheeses are much more viable here, but i had to always had some defense against Shaka.

    At 1AD I have 7 cities, just settled iron (for Samurai later on) and 5-6 WEs and cats. Need much more to do damage (Shaka is in Police State). But to add insult to the injury, almost all Shaka's cities are on the hills.
    I played too safe thinking that AIs would also be at 6-7 cities with 8 AIs but this large map with standard map tech costs is too fast. The unknown AIs from the other continent are taking over the wonder production while my local AIs are decent at tech pace considering that they all REXed. I'll try to attack with late Elepult and see if I could take hillside Ulundi and the Pyramids, they could work well with our decent food. Those are 3 cities to take before going for peace with Shaka.
     
    Fine_Distinction likes this.
  9. Fine_Distinction

    Fine_Distinction Warlord

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    Hi Shakabrade, you did quite well, I in no point was in a position to attack Shaka, barely managed to take barbarian city to the east while defending against him.

    Can you post more about your early game? Tech path, how you developed? You had 7 cities without chokepoint?

    I changed all my early plans after seeing Shaka so close, I SIP and prioritized settling the chokepoint in naive hopes of denying Shaka metals :cry::cry::cry::cry::cry: Once Shaka attacked, it was difficult to do anything else other than defending, I was mostly producing units and maintenance was killing me ....
     
  10. shakabrade

    shakabrade Praise Vivec!

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    Hi, @Fine_Distinction

    I can tell you the thought process as I make all decisions based on that, regarding early development at least. Dont really remember the specifics anyway, I have taken too much info (Monday meetings should be banned :) ). I chose gems for the development based on the available info because worker would have nothing useful to do until BW and once we'd finish our workboat for weak food plus the first worker, wed be overrun by the barbs. With gems, you get to do something great with the first tech and get all other techs in a breeze and start chopping much sooner. After that, I settled 2nd city at double clam/cattle/corn site. That is a great 2nd city and allows 2nd clam to be shared with the next city east without the border pop. The settler was produced at size 3 and it was built plus chopped as there is no use whipping away good tiles and especially so with low food surplus. Worker techs were favoured according to which will translate to more food which will translate to production. Production is actually everything. After that I made one Axe for defense and settler escort, later on added one more, built settlers from 2 cities, put a Library in 2nd City when a city to take Corn was built. Generated a GS for nothing as I traded for everything. Researched Archery before pottery to have some cheaper defense against potential Shaka dagger. Saw Shaka amass units. Put some archers and axes. Then waited forever for a plot. Bad thing as then you need much more units to hold (with early dagger you can get lucky and get your Archer to drill 3 or even 4). Later on you get smashed with SoD while your units are at 3xp. So you build more units. Then I cried as my Elepult was slowed too much.
     
  11. Fine_Distinction

    Fine_Distinction Warlord

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    Thanks @shakabrade for detailed answer, I will try to replay your way, hopefully I will get better results.

    Based on your pre-game suggestion, I tried sandboxing both settling SIP and near gems 2W, but at least in my hands SIP was working better. For a gem city, I was loosing corn which was a great source of food, and it seemed to slow down my growth. Maybe my tech path was not good. One of the reasons was that I picked SIP was I went AH early hoping for horses/chariots. It was of course before I knew Shaka is the neighbor, he is to the West and he has Impis :cry::cry::cry: I used 1 chariot and 1WB for scouting, probably too expensive on Deity, did not do me any good, I was researching too slow to get any trades, and Shaka killed eventually my scouting chariot.

    My initial tech path was Agriculture (3600 BC)->AH (3040 BC)->Mining (2720 BC) ->Bronze Working (2120 BC). I did not have problems with idle worker turns, maybe road one tile toward Shaka, other than that mined a hill SW and then chopped, chopped & chopped :D

    I scouted very carefully and managed to fend off barbarians initially with warriors
    First 3 cities settled:

    * Osaka (gem/horse) 2240bc

    * Tokyo (choke point) 1880bc (Looks like I got lucky with this one, for some people it will be too late). Also, I did not settled on the hill, but one tile toward Shaka. When he attacked, I put defenders on the hill and fended off Shaka for more then a 1000 years :D:D:D:D:D I even especially bulb math to build a fort on this hill, put 3 workers there and miss it by 1 turn when the tile flipped to Shaka :cry::o:cry::mad::cry:

    * Fourth (seafood) 1320 bc

    I struggled later, changed my plans several times, always researching key techs too late and not being able to trade anything with AI ... Maintenance was also killing me, I basically had always to maintain stack vs. Shaka, especially after settling the checkpoint. So far when I was trying to replay, it was getting even worse, once I got killed by barbs early :cry::lol::crazyeye::eek: That was my first deity game, definitely a learning experience, maybe I actually played quite well for my level.

    Would be very interesting to see somebody succeeding, but as you said, it would require some lack, Shaka with metals so near is basically unpredictable, does not leave you much room to follow any other strategy than survival, which is very costly. I mean, you need to devote a lot of resources to just survive, making anything else more difficult.
     
  12. shakabrade

    shakabrade Praise Vivec!

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    Maybe you haven't chopped enough with the Gems? There is no need to connect your gems too early, it is better to just chop chop chop. I am surprised that SIP would outperform because you have so many idle worker turns if you go Agri ->AH ->Mining ->BW. Just simulating in my head you start chopping just before T50. So, it is better to go AH after BW, but then you have nothing to do with Mining EDIT: Actually there was one hill. and just road around aimlessly. With the gems start, you have at least 20T of chopping extra and earlier burst to production. Even though you lose 3T. Plus all the lack of any defense against the barbs if you SIP. But I have not actually tried to make SiP work too much, it is far better city after T50. But I settled it T41 (have it written) from the Gems.
     
  13. Fine_Distinction

    Fine_Distinction Warlord

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    With gem start, I was struggling with lack of food. Maybe I was chopping settler too late, will try again. What do you mean by no defense against barbs if you SIP?

    If you move warrior before deciding, you can see a nice hill to mine in SIP BFC.

    I guess I prioritized AH too much, playing Egypt recently. Chariots were completely useless against Shaka. But after I SIP, AH seemed to make sense since I needed Agri anyway. I also did not appreciate how hard research and maintenance costs became later on deity, my tests were only until T50-60.
     
  14. Frederiksberg

    Frederiksberg Deity

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    Retired 400 BC. Settled in place to favor production over tech (in hindsight probably wrong considering the map and neighbor). Like @shakabrade say it involves building a few roads then mining the grassy hill. Then you can go mine the gems and pasture the horses for 2nd and third city. As soon as I realised how little space was available I decided to go for an axe rush. Had built close to 20 axes when Shaka declared. I managed to take one of his cities but he he already had 8 cities vs my 4 and spammed units like crazy. At 400 BC I retired. Still had 14 axes and a few spears left but was under relentless attack with no prospect of taking more cities. With such a large army the situation is untenable with research slider at 0% and no prospect of progress.
    With map knowledge I would probably go for the gems capital, settle the choke point early and just hunker down until an elepult war is feasible. I'm not saying this would win, I think it would still be extremely challenging.
     
  15. Fine_Distinction

    Fine_Distinction Warlord

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    I kinda tried it, not gems capital, but choke point city and hunkering down. But it still very tough, Shaka would not make peace if you switch to his religion, etc, so you have to keep building units to defend, which puts research slider close to 0%, I was using mostly GS to research :D And Shaka quickly gets more cities that you have space for, first techs like crazy in Rep and then switches to Police State to pump advanced units :(
     
  16. Fine_Distinction

    Fine_Distinction Warlord

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    Hi @shakabrade, I was trying to play like you did. So you settle 2W, worker first, mine gems, build workboat and eventually farm the cow? those are 3 tiles you work when building settler? And you research Mining->BW->Agri? what do you research next?
     
  17. Frederiksberg

    Frederiksberg Deity

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    Did you build a mix of defenders? I would imagine that Shaka would suicide a lot of units against a hill city defended by archers, axes and spears.
     
  18. Fine_Distinction

    Fine_Distinction Warlord

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    Mostly axes and archers, I would have to check if I built any spears. I do not remember if I used any spears, I think Shaka was not using mounted units. Also in my case city was already taken by Shaka, so I was just blocking him on a nearby hill.

    BTW, the hill defense proved surprisingly effective against heavily outnumbering me Shaka's stacks, I was loosing almost no units. I especially bulbed math to build a fort there, but I miss it by 1 turn and the tile flipped to Shaka. I was also trying to conquer a well-defended barb city when fending Shaka off and stretched myself a bit too thin ...

    Did anybody found a way for Shaka not to declare in BCs?

    I was trying to play really nice with him - other than settling near the chokepoint - I chose to settle city on plains to not to have to produce any culture (not to trigger "border sparking tensions" message") to grab clams. Not sure if it made sense, maybe cheaper just to put units on the hill to begin with. Does anybody know if that matters in terms of DoWing? Also once he attacked me, the moment he switched to buddhism, I switched, too, even though I had it in just one of my city and costed me 1T anarchy. But seems like a waste of resources, Shaka did not liked me any better, and would not agree to peace.

    But back then my hopes were not completely crushed yet, I thought mapmaker was not completely evil (sorry DS :hug:) and that this is Shaka's only metal, so city blocking it was a must.
     
  19. Frederiksberg

    Frederiksberg Deity

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    I don't think you can avoid Shaka attacking. Many AI will DOW at pleased. In order to get peace you need to kill a lot of enemy units and/or bribe with a tech. If you have Currency and the AI is pleased you can beg 10 gold and get 10 turns of peace.
     
  20. Fine_Distinction

    Fine_Distinction Warlord

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    The problem is I was never able to get ahead with tech in this situation, tried to get Aesthetics for trades/bribes, but was too slow. It was my first deity game, not counting test games for this BOTM, so my early play was far from ideal, I forgot to get to BW asap and changed strategies couple times since they were nor working.

    I did "kill" many of his units he was throwing at my chokepoint stack, I have to check but I think if they die during attacking it does not count the same way as if I actively kill them.
     

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