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[BTS] BOTM 193: Ramesses, Warlord - Final Spoiler - Game submitted

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Game of the Month' started by Noble Zarkon, May 25, 2020.

  1. Noble Zarkon

    Noble Zarkon Civ IV Emperor EQM Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

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    Use this thread to tell us what happened in your game, particularly anything after 1AD. Did you waltz your way to an easy victory or was it harder than anticipated?

    Reading Requirements
    If you are participating in BOTM 193 then you MUST NOT read this thread unless
    • You have submitted your entry

    Posting Restrictions
    • Do not post any savegame file from the game. Discussions and screenshots are fine but not actual games.
     
  2. MarleysGh0st

    MarleysGh0st Prince

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    Continuing with my Contender save...

    Having conquered the Dutch, I declared on Mansa Musa in 225 and conquered his cities by 660. Meanwhile, I had earned the circumnavigation bonus.

    The Canaanites were conquered in 900. The Greeks capitulated in 1180, the Chinese did so in 1230, and the Ethiopians in 1270, giving me a Conquest Victory in 1280.

    What more is there to say? It was only Warlord level. But after the Tokugawa experience, I really didn't want to take the leap to Deity again.
     
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  3. Frederiksberg

    Frederiksberg Deity

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    Continuing my plan I expanded to the islands that were not yet settled and got to 15 cities in the early AD's. Mansa was at 11 cities and way ahead in tech but I infiltrated with the GSpy and set up a spying operation in two of his border cities were I spread buddhism to get spying bonuses. This allowed me to slowly catch up while saving some gold. Attacking Mansa didn't seem like the best play since it would end the spy game and Mansa had 6-8 units in every city - some of them superior due to his tech lead. Around 820 AD I met Mao, Pericles and Zara and got circumnavigation shortly thereafter. My plan was now to continue spying on Mansa and attack Mao who had the MoM. Then Mansa threw a wrench in the wheel! Around 1100 AD he apparently decided to go for a cultural victory and went full culture slider. Obviously this meant that his research slowed to a crawl and not only did his usefulness as a target for spying operations evaporate but he actually became a huge nuisance swamping my border cities with his culture. Adding to my aggravation was the fact that I had spent a GSpy on him just a few turns earlier and had more than 3000 unused spy points. The only conclusion was that he had to go. Foolishly he had not researched Gunpowder or Rifling yet so those were the techs I went for using saved up gold. I also researched MilTrad and around 1250 AD hell was unleashed with more than 30 units - a mix of cuirs and cavalry. Spies had been placed in every city in advance and this allowed a blitzkrieg without any siege weapons. The spies incited a revolt and my mounted army crushed Mansa's medieval units. After the war I had 40 veteran mounted units looking for new "adventures". Mao was only one tech away from researching Rifling but assuming that he would get there anyway I opted for a Liberalism slingshot to SciMeth followed by Communism. As the Mansa war had ramped down I switched production to Universities and Oxford and self research was picking up. Another key thing was switching to State Property and building Kremlin and then go for Steel. I also got another GSpy and decided to steal some techs from Pericles. Adding some cannons to my mounted army should prolong it's usefulness even in the event of Mao getting rifles. Surprisingly Mao ignored Rifling and went for Military Science, Steam power and Assembly Line and at the time of attack around 1500 AD he still had medieval units except for his huge fleet of frigates and ships of the line. A huge naval battle ensued in the bay of Beijing. I managed to offload all units at the turn of DOW before the naval counterattack but my ships of the line held their ground. Meanwhile I stole both Physics and Artillery from Pericles and built a few artillery. They came in handy when Mao got Railroad and upgraded his cannons to machine guns. After the chinese war there wasn't much left to do. I considered a domination victory but decided against because it would come late (~1600 AD). Instead I went for Space, but that also came sort of late in 1810 AD. That said I'll take any win on Deity :). Pericles built the Apollo program and in the end he pushed for a cultural victory but he never came close.

    All in all a very entertaining game where I learned a lot. I rarely play Deity games and it's quite different from the other difficulty levels. First time I experienced the AI actually committing to a VC. Thanks to the map maker, I really needed another game after the Toku fiasco :lol:
     
  4. nocho

    nocho Deity

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    I got a communist space win in 1540AD. At some point I had some hope of a pre-1500 win but it wasn't to be, among other things because I didn't get a fairly high odds (75% or so IIRC) great person for a 5-man Golden Age. Of course at this level everything went cruising, eliminated Mansa and the Canaaites from the continent when I started to need the land, then annexed the whole of China to the empire. That kept me a few percentage points below domination, just enough for some aesthetical changes to Ethiopia, to claim a sheep and a wheat in the process for much needed health (Zara had a city on the Greek island which I conquered and gave away to Greece in order for Pericles to have 2 wheats instead of 1). I libbed Assembly Line in 900AD, could have gone for something even more expensive but I also wanted to go communist for which lib is needed of course. Thanks for a nice and relaxing game.

    Sounds like an interesting game you had by the way, Frederiksberg. :)
     
  5. kcd_swede

    kcd_swede Jag är Viking!½ GOTM Staff

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    Space Victory 1864 a.d. score approx 47000

    This was actually the first time in several years I have played a BtS game of any kind. I've been mostly playing 6oTM's. Thank goodness this was on Warlord difficulty.

    Did you know you can stack units??? And units don't float? And workers last forever?

    Wow, I kinda remember most of this stuff... but it's pretty clear I forgot more than I ever learned.:o

    It took me several wars with Mansa to finally defeat him (lets say cannons and muskets finally did the trick in war #3 or 4). I had stupidly bribed Mansa to peace with the minor civ - afraid he'd take all those cities - but that wasn't going to happen at this difficulty level, and it was a bad move in every aspect. After Mansa I took all the Minor Civ cities. Then just to try a war across the ocean, I took all of China. Then saw that I was VERY close to getting a Domination victory which wasn't at all what I wanted. Gotta play the long game if I'm getting back into this game.

    Did Sushi and Mining corps and was in Golden Age for all the SS building. I got 2 engines and the life support to all finish on the same turn, which is better than I usually managed (way back in the day...).

    Not sure if fun is the right word. The experience is better described by this emoji: :hammer2:
     
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  6. Frederiksberg

    Frederiksberg Deity

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    Great Space game @nocho. Why did you go for State Property and workshops rather than mining inc? I did the same but didn't get any GE's so that's why. Yes, my game was indeed very interesting. On Deity level the AI is a force to be reckoned with and they will sometimes limit your possibilities :crazyeye:
     
  7. Powerfaker

    Powerfaker Warlord

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    Noticing this rich start made me wanna do some good old wonderspam. On deity probably not possible, so it had to be contender level. Conquest seemed a bit cheesy on Warlord, so decided to go for culture for a change, which also seemed appropriate with this start and ample food in the area.
    With this mindset it never occurred to me I could rush WvO right away :hammer2:
    Took him out late BC's with HA's and took over 2 cities, all seafood hooked up and 3 workers. Moved on to attack Mansa. He was a bit too strong to take out (for what I was willing to invest), but I did take the copper city, which was helpful with some cathedrals that required copper.

    Cruising through techs full speed for a change was very nice. Oracle => CS 1200BC. Everything came together between 400-500AD. Lib => Nationalism + all cities fully grown and all production finished, apart from Hermitage and Taj.

    During the Culture sleep however the expected finish date kept slipping away further and further taway from the 1000AD I anticipated..
    One thing was that this map turned out not all culture friendly after all. Serious health problems resulted in a poorish rate of 5-6 artist specialist in all of my 8 GP cities. This didn't change after Astro and meeting the other AI's. No wheat , no sheep, health cap remained 12 (or 13 maybe).
    About 5 times I had a 85-90% GArtist chance because I missed pop being auto assigned to specialist after growth several times. No less then 3 non GA was the result. Did it really have to be this way ?? :wallbash:
    Also a 60% chance of the capital (because of all its wonders) failed, There I just say so be it, Apparently nothing was gonna work my way.anymore.

    Eventually I ended with a 1410AD victory. ……….and some good learning points for the future.
     
  8. Mitchum

    Mitchum Deity

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    Continuing from the Contender save, I decided to go for a Diplo victory since it would require the least amount of real-life time. At 1 AD, I had 9 cities + 1 settler, Education (Oxford in 5 turns) and Optics (caravels were on their way to the new land).

    I started on the Mass Media beeline. I got a 100% GE (for the UN rush build) and 4 100% GSs (bulbed into SM and Electricity). I took Radio from Liberalism and finished Mass Media in 660 AD. I wasn't set up for a 1-turn UN but was able to build it in the capital in 3 turns with the GE and 2 chops. I ended up with a Diplo victory in 900 AD.

    The challenge in this game was that I only had about 30 turns to get the AIs on the other continents to Friendly since I met them in the early ADs. They were backwards when I got there and it looked like Mansa was going to be my opponent unless I did something to change it (e.g. gift the UN to my target opponent, gift a bunch of cities to an AI to get their population higher than Mansa, beat down on Mansa a bit, etc.). I was able to switch them all to the world religion and liberally gift techs and resources to get everyone to Friendly (other than the Canaanites). So Mansa was my opponent even though I had cultivated that relationship since we were cavemen (he was +21 with me at the end).

    Overall, an enjoyable game. Thanks, NZ!
     
  9. DynamicSpirit

    DynamicSpirit Fear him of the pink tie Moderator GOTM Staff

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    1720 AD space win. Which I'm kinda happy with because I've been trying for ages to get a pre-1800AD space, and finally done it. But then this is such an easy game that I'm not sure that really counts :lol:. Yeah, I know, I'm impossible to please!

    After 1AD the game took a fairly conventional path. I destroyed Mansa and the Canaanites with maces and trebs, and then after astronomy, China (for the gems and spices, plus Beijing looked like the best national park city owing to China having left most of the forests there), and Ethiopia (because they were vassalled to China anyway). I subsequently had to give a couple of ex-Ethiopian cities to the Greeks and Dutch though, to stay under the domination limit.

    Nice game - quite cool to have such an easy game once in a while :D

    Very impressed by @nocho's 1540AD space - even on this level, I imagine that'll be very tough to beat. And @Mitchum nearly having Oxford built in 1AD ... wow! (I just checked and I discovered education in 325AD, and built Oxford in 650AD, which I was thinking were good dates lol :blush: )
     
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  10. Mitchum

    Mitchum Deity

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    Thanks. I focused on getting Education and Oxford as early as possible in my game. I had grown 5 cities large enough (actually 6 but had forgotten that you only needed 5 Universities. haha) to quickly whip the universities (all 5 had forges already). I could have pulled in Oxford a bit but decided against chopping the last two forests in the capital.

    My guess is that your empire was a bit more balanced at 1 AD than mine since I was laser focused on Oxford while letting other things slide (like having enough workers, building more settlers, etc.). Nothing comes for free. ;)
     
  11. nocho

    nocho Deity

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    I mainly use State Property because I'm lazy and because I grew accustomed to it, setting up corps and spreading seems to take more RL time and more mental bandwith... I also really like the look of communist workshops and watermills. You're probably right though that in this game there were enough resources to make corps the better choice.

    Yeah, I think I might have noticed that once or twice! :lol:

    Thanks DS! I'm sure though it's beatable, usually I play quite quickly so I'm sure it can be optimized. Also there's that corps-route that might work out better. Still, I'm quite happy with the date. :)
     
  12. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    I couldn't resist going for all-time fastest 'culture' win. 600 AD. Plenty of room for improvement.
    Ofc, I used espionage.
    And, I learned something! The AI will not make a vassal if there is a minor civ on that landmass.
     
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  13. Powerfaker

    Powerfaker Warlord

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    @Wastin Time
    Wow, of course you had to do something mindblowing :wow:

    Could you give an impression how you build that up??
    Say, early expansion pace + which more advanced techs did you go for first. When did you start producing artists and spies and how did you implement them. what do you think were other keypoints?

    I never used spies for culture. Maybe I will replay this game to get some experience with it.
     
  14. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    I've tried it several different ways and I still need to work out the best way. They're all fun, so give them a try.
    Start normally and get around a dozen cities.

    1) The Old way
    race to constitution and use Jails to get many, many Great Spies. (And you need 3 artists (culture bombs).)
    Currency. Engineering is nice if you can tech that far (spies move 3 tiles)
    That's a lot of tech tho...

    2) Another Old way: (minimal tech)
    Just get CoL for 3 artists, and currency to pay for units (trade for free Alpha for spies). The run 100% EP slider

    3) :devil: Then there's the game-breaking way that I found, and our SG team polished for great success in SGotM 25.
    One GSpy. 3 Artists. (minimum)

    Long story, but you make one AI (Mansa in this case) form a colony. The 3500+ EPs you have on him are replicated :eek: to his new slave vassal.
    Use your spies against the slave. Kill the slave. Rinse, repeat.
    I went thru at least 10 slave-Civs I think.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2020
  15. Conquistador 63

    Conquistador 63 Deity

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    Very clever!:goodjob: How do you force/induce the AI to form colonies?

    About my game: given the leader traits and the resources in the starting area, from the start I went for an old fashioned culture victory. With 6 cities being enough for the small map size, I played a totally peaceful game and cruised to a 1250AD finish.
     
  16. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    Just give them 4 cites on one landmass that does not contain their capital.
     
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  17. Powerfaker

    Powerfaker Warlord

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    So the hardest part is actually to gather enough espionage points to perform the missions. 10 slave civs is 35000 points. The price per mission must be like 400-500, on warlord level? Of course it depends on distance, religion stuff etc. A far away colony must be expensive.
    Do your spies in this setup spend lots of turns in foreign land? You would loose a lot of them

    I would never have guessed constitution could be desirable in some setup. But you cannot be sure to get many GSpies with just a jail right? You just raise the odds in a pool with some artist specialists

    Some calculation.
    To raise 3 legendary cities from a culture bomb in each requires 27 successful missions per city (4000*1,1exp27=52000). to cover for failed attempts and captures you need to send more. Is just 3 artist and so many spies the healthiest mix?
    Good to know that a GSPy is roughly equal to 3 GArtists (without the cloning).

    I think I will do a first attempt via liberating cities around the cap to Willem (for the cheapest possible mission price). Have them packed with spies 5 turns in advance and enough points available to instantly raise them to legendary, with whichever mix shows up convenient. 2 bombs require 20 missions, 3 bombs 15 missions. If you do 1 city at a time you can reuse surviving spies.
     
  18. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    Not sure I should spoil all the fun. It's kinda like playing a whole new Civ game.
    but if you want to know, here goes...
    Your 3 legendary cities, where you do all the spy missions, are 3 tiles from your capital :eek:. You simply give these cities to the AI and they make a colony. (Oh, I see you figured that out.) Just be sure the city is size 2 or you use 'no razing' when you recapture it.
    jail + courthouse. (PHI leader, Pacifism, Golden Age, Parthenon for +350%) You can get quite a few GSpies.
    Great question. You play and tell me :help:
    Not sure about your math. It's about 50+ missions per city if you start at 4000.
    35 missions/city if you start at 8000.
    Yeah, lots of reuse. It's why engineering helps.
     
  19. Xcalibrator

    Xcalibrator Ultraviolet Catastrophe

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    Deity win, Space race, 1852. In our second, desperate war, I knocked Mansa down to 4 cities and vassalized him as my troops fought to their last breaths. Then I just left everybody else alone (Wm of course being long dead) and went for space with Mining Inc and late Sushi. Pericles and Mao must have been at war for 2000 years. :rolleyes: Peri could have been a real problem if he'd turned his attention to me.
     
  20. Termitnik

    Termitnik Chieftain

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    Not a deity games lover, but what could be fun in warlord game? Maybe challenging WastinTime for getting the fastest culture defeat :cool: Alas, this cool idea came to my mind after I have loaded a deity save, so I just made a bloodbath for AIs as a revenge for botm192.
    Connected horses with second city, expanded to 4. Teched mining then to alpha via ah. Traded techs then rushed the dutch with warchars, eliminated them in 100bc. After conquering the dutch it is time to develop the cities for paralleled tech run with Mansa. Focused on getting GL (imo, best wonder considering deity/small/Mansa), so after alpha teched to literature, music for free ga then run to education). In the meanwhile got optics and met guys from another hemisphere in 700ad. Zara was weak and unadvanced, Mao and Peri were strong, but palpably behind us in techs. On other hand Mansa was advanced as much as me, but my scouts saw that he wasted tons of macemen and 2 generals to conquer minor civ on north. Because of that he connected horses unjustifiedly late and his army mainly consisted of macemen and crossbowmen with very few knights. I got steel via liber in 800 ad, chopped remaining forests and slaved some citizen to get cannon stack asap. I hit him before he could properly defend himself from cannons. Warchars were still amazing even at this point because they do not only confidently finish lbows/macemen/muskets damaged by cannons but also are perfect for hunting down unguarded/undamaged by collateral malinese catapults. Mansa was helpless, I crushed his stack in field with almost no casualties and took his cities one by one. Malinese were completely annihilated at 1370 using cannons and riflemen. few turns before I got assembly line...
    During Mali war Zara declared on me, so he should be a next victim. But he has unexpectedly powerfull fleet and my first 2 galleons with cargo were sunk:cry: After I brought reinforcement and took one of his cities Mao vassalized him and declared on me. When I was 1 turn from taking Zara's cap, the AP resolution to make peace with Mao was passed. I was sloppy and voted no instead of defy.
    It was a quite disappointing moment, Zara was no problem at all, Mao has only riflemen and neither chemistry nor steampower while I had infantries and was on the way to artillery. Now I have options either to waste 10 turns waiting treaty to expire or invade greeks which were slightly more advanced (had Railroad) and productive then Mao. Peri like Mao has no horses, thus has riflemen-based army. I declared on him on 1430 and started golden age using ga from music. Bigger stack has taken his city while smaller stack was eliminated, but he wasted all his few cannons on that. He came to retake his city with 25 riflemen while I had about 10 infantries inside + some cavarly and cannons. He did not dare to attack, he just moved around his former city, so in 3 turns his stack was completely eliminated. My galleons easily evaded greek frigates thank to circumnavigation bonus, but on third turn of invasion he got combustion, immediately upgraded to destroyers and on next turn my entire fleet has been wiped out. All my further attempts to sneakily send reinforcements were unsuccessful. Luckily I've landed enough to keep pressure on him and take 4 out of his 7 cities including the middle one. Then I ceased fire (he was still pleased to me after losing half of his empire, lol), sent some reinforcements and finished him. He has already some infantries, but it was too late for him. Conquering entire greek's continent was enough for domination victory.
     

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