[BTS] BOTM 209: Catherine, Immortal - First Spoiler - 1AD

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Game of the Month' started by DynamicSpirit, Mar 16, 2021.

  1. DynamicSpirit

    DynamicSpirit Fear him of the pink tie Moderator GOTM Staff

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    BOTM 209: Catherine, Immortal - First Spoiler - 1AD



    Use this thread to tell us what happened in your game, up to 1AD. Where did you settle? Did you figure out a way to use the abundant food in the starting area? How have you survived? Met any AIs?

    Reading Requirements
    If you are participating in BOTM 209, then you MUST NOT read this thread unless EITHER
    • You have reached at least 1 AD in your game, OR
    • You have submitted your entry
    Posting Restrictions
    • Do not disclose ANY events or information gained post 1 AD.
    • Do not reveal your final result if that happened after 1 AD.
    • Do not discuss the location of resources that may not show up before 1 AD (Iron is OK, coal and oil are not)
    • Do not post any savegame file from the game. Discussions and screenshots are fine but not actual games
     
  2. nocho

    nocho Deity

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    I settled in place and followed mscellaneous' suggestion in the announcement thread to go for early BW, which was of course extra sweet when bronze popped up. So went AG, BW, Fish, AH initially. Started out right with a worker, only few turns were wasted after farming the rice with farming a FP, later cottaged over, before BW came in.

    Genghis luckily didn't expand to his east or north-east initially, so could grab the gold and gems which helped to keep teching afloat and of course added some much needed happiness. He basically expanded south and soon enough started fighting Elizabeth, with whom he's still at war at 1AD. He captured a city but it seems the English got it back, so it's good they keep each other busy.

    I was careful not to overexpand too quickly as there wasn't too much commerce to go by, especially pre-IW. Unfortunately got beaten to the GLH, although fail gold helped. Decided to tech IW myself for a change, seemed to be worth it enough to enable the gems and jungled pigs. In any case tech isn't going very fast, though it picked up when I met the Dutch and a bit later the Chinese. Typical aesthetics for alpha and math trades and just got currency in. Next will be construction and HBR to get ready for elepulting the Mongols.

    I'm at 8 cities and 46 pop, all other AIs are at 6 or 7, so I guess that a succesfull campaign against the Mongols should really get me in the driving seat.
     
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  3. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    SIP. BW, fish, AH, wheel, pott, Ag, Sail, Mason for GLH, writing...
    I also got the Gems/gold/pig. Mine was 4th city. I thought I was safe with Genghis/Liz hate, but bad rng sent him after me. I saw the stack coming and could have whipped axes, but I was looking forward to a builder game...without that huge setback before I even got GLH half built.
    So, I'm done.
     
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  4. mscellaneous

    mscellaneous Prince Supporter

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    I settled in place and researched as playtested: BW > Fishing > AH, followed by Wheel > Pottery > Writing. Met Genghis on turn 3 and Lizzy on turn 29. Settled 2 cities: SE of Pigs and SW of Rice.

    With 3 cities I had a long think whether to REX or go after Genghis. REXing seemed attractive with some nice city spots in the jungle, with the gems / gold / pig seeming best. However, I decided to attack Genghis as REXing would leave me quite vulnerable. So after Writing I researched Masonry > Math > Construction. Attacked at 525 BC. Now, 1 AD, I have 8 cities, about to capture 2 more (double gems city) which will reduce Genghis to 1 last city.

    Getting my economy back on track will be very challenging. With 8 cities I am already losing gold at 0% research.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2021
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  5. LowtherCastle

    LowtherCastle Deity

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    After extensive testing, I also followed the initial msc tech path: BW-FI-AH...

    I was delighted to pop copper so early. Felt like a miracle considering the times I've moved my settler to the most logical place--right on top of the copper...

    As good as that fortune was, my luck with my explorers was catastrophic. I built a warrior immediately while growing to pop3 (1 whipped my worker on t20). The warrior made it about 3 tiles from my border, met a lion and died at about 64% odds. The scout who I had sent along the east side made it to the bottom before dying to a panther. So I didn't know about the gold tile. GK and Lizzy Borden met me. It's interesting how important exploration can be and how devastating an early death or two.

    I settled Pigs-SE and planned to settle Rice-SW and 3N but I decided I needed the happies so I targeted the gems+ivory spot. However, my scout had passed by the eastern side of the little lake and revealed the diagonal of forest tiles and the two plains hills in the fog. I decided to send my settler-axe pair to the gems via the west in case that tile had gold (yes, I thought it just might, or at least I hoped so). Bingo, so I settled Gold-NE as my third city, to include one gems tile. Settled Oasis-2S next to capture the other gems and one ivory. I actually settled 3N before Rice-SW. I thought I was rocking having gotten those metals while GK settled the pigs-rice-banana coastal city 10 tiles from his capital! (Great city actually. I had already dotmapped his choice. That's where my scout died.)

    I had been planning the Alpha slingshot because both Lizzy and GK would trade it if they knew no one else, UNLESS they were WHEOOHRN. I was pretty sure they'd both tech it but Lizzy was on the Writing line and had gotten BW rather late so I bailed and decided to beeline IW because I couldn't risk settling two cities so far away and not develop the gems fast. Ultimately that worked out because my teching rocketed and I got MC quickly enough to (barely) get Alpha. Liz wouldn't even trade me Alpha+Mysticism for MC so she must have been teching it for 2t.

    GK soon settled West Gems-SW and started amassing a stack of doom. So I countered with some axes in my gold city and teched archery for a couple archers. It was nip and tuck but I got enough there to feel comfortable if he attacked.

    In 475BC I had a stroke of Great Fortune -- GK DoWed Lizzy. Evidently he had already moved his SoD but I didn't notice when. Up to that point I think I had played relatively perfectly. GK now had 8 cities but they were tiny and undeveloped. He didn't have iron or horses yet. He hadn't teched HBR or Construction yet. This was my Golden Opportunity to pincher him between Lizzy. I had 5 axes and an archer in gold city, basically on his doorstep. I had scouted his lands except for where his horses would be. (I actually built a scout for that purpose!) Had I known how much he would spam units, I would have DoWed and sent a pillaging unit to stone-age him. I couldn't capture his capital because it had walls. I had this game owned at this point because my economy was great. 31gpt at 0% research. 85bpt and -39gpt at 100%. HBR in 3t, for example, at 100%.

    I blew it. I snoozed on the opportunity. Live and learn.

    To my great surprise, in 275BC, a mere 10t laters, GK and Lizzy DoPed. Shortly thereafter a new SoD appeared on my borders and in 25BC he DoWed me. At 1AD, I decided to attack his vulnerable stack on my plains farm, which I didn't want pillaged, along with other tiles. (GK's preference is to pillage.) I have suffered massive, unwarranted deaths, including three City Raider II swords (actually two of those capturing a barb city on the west coast).

    I have rebuffed GK's attack but he now has 9 hammer-rich cities, iron, copper, horses, and ivory, and has teched both HBR and Construction. I can win this game by building a massive stack of cats. and wearing him down, but it will be a slog.

    My economy is great. I can tech whatever I want relatively fast. I only recently met the Dutch and haven't met Nocho's Chinese or anyone else. The Dutch are somewhat ahead of me but I was able to acquire some nice techs. I teched IW-MC and traded Liz for Alpha two turns after she got it. Only met the Dutch later...

    I doubt I will finish this game. Just not fun any more.

    This game was a great learning experience for me. I have been playing more lately than ever really, and in this game I learned just how much a unit spammer on this level will spam units. Lesson learned.

    I love the scenario. Very well designed with opportunities and pitfalls. Having the Dutch within reach is great. I'm curious what lies beyond...
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2021
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  6. LowtherCastle

    LowtherCastle Deity

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    For this map in this scenario I think you’re in great position. Domination is easily within reach for you. Getting GK out of the way early is crucial.
     
  7. MarleysGh0st

    MarleysGh0st Prince

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    I also tried one of the playtesting saves and followed the opening mscellaneous had mapped out: BW > Fishing > AH, except that I then went for the Wheel before Writing. My fourth settler was heading for the gold and gems, when I saw that I was in a race with Genghis. I settled north of the gold, he settled south of the gems. While my cultural bonus temporarily grabbed a gem, I couldn't hold it. Barbs haven't been any problem for me, Moscow's cultural border covering the northern front helped a lot with that. The only barb I remember fighting was a warrior in Genghis's territory; my axe could have ignored it, but killed it for the experience.

    Genghis and Elizabeth hate each other and have fought one war, from 825 BC to 550 BC. Trying to stay neutral while they both demanded my help hasn't helped my diplomatic standing with either one.

    By 1 AD, I have 7 cities, and I've just given in to a demand from Genghis for Alphabet. My plan is to try to keep the peace long enough to mount a Cuiraisier rush.
     
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  8. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Spoiler To T113, 1AD overview comming next! :


    at T5 when I was about to choose tech, I debated with myself what to do. But I was almost sure the tile NW of capital was a horse.
    In the game description, there was a image on a horse!! I trusted the mapmaker!
    So after AH was done and I had improved the pig, my worker was really angry at me.
    I kind of wanted fishing first to get some commerce going, but it was too late for that. So techpath was AH->BW->Fish. and after that I went for writing.
    I wanted to utilize the traits imp/cre to get alot of cities up with libraries in fast.
    Civ4ScreenShot0001.JPG

    Two cities.
    Civ4ScreenShot0002.JPG

    And bam! 4 cities, with libraries in two.
    Screwed up the timing with boat to crab, and with no agriculture (I delayed it even more), crab-city got stuck on pop3 working crab+2scientists for a long time.
    Here I started the slider again TW first to get copper. Was thinking alot about going for IW then, or perhaps trying to go alpha and trade for it. Khan had IW now but Lizzy had not..
    I ended up getting TW->Pot->IW. Had a hard time getting cottages down due to few workers, but I could get some granary action going.
    Civ4ScreenShot0007.JPG

    T62 GK started plotting. I was almost certain he went for his W/E although I did build a pair of axes and put some more into queue to whip.
    I got a hell of a jumpscare here!
    Civ4ScreenShot0010.JPG

    But it turned out it was just a peaceful settler party, that wanted to steal MY gems.
    Civ4ScreenShot0011.JPG

    T78 Elizabeth also starts plotting, but on T79, Khan DoWs her making those plans moot.

    I added timers to remember to cancel trade deals, and I also did just that, canceled OB with Elizabeth (to avoid having to decline requests to stop trading from Khan).
    While they where busy fighting, I found a barb city loaded with warriors. 78g was nice. But then I razed it, can't afford a city so far away, and I can't gift it to anyone of the AIs either as they hate each other.
    Civ4ScreenShot0015.JPG

    I had such foresight to sent out two workboats, one in either direction, but still I didn't see that there was an AI here. Only after I went up with scout to bust galleys I saw the culture.
    Turns out it was Wilhelm. He didn't want to give me alpha for aestethics+meditation, but after I went a full turn into alpha, that deal went through.
    Civ4ScreenShot0017.JPG

    Khan loses the holy Jewish city of Turfan.
    Have no idea how he managed to fail in such a spectacular manner, but I think that he founded judaism and sent 4-5 missionaries my way instead of building Keshiks had something to do with it!
    Civ4ScreenShot0022.JPG

    Finished drama T103-T104, and then I had to self-tech math because noone had it.
    I was tilted toward drama toward philo-bulb instead of CoL because confu was already founded, and I had a cute idea of trying to get globe up in capital to whip alot of HAs there. Half-price theatres are nice too, and since Khan settled in my face I'm helped by the theatre culture to get the gems.
    I was prompted into meditation/aestethics by the gold+ivory (traded) for failgold through SoZ and Swedagon Paya. Went kind of heavy on the whipping and probably whipped more axes/swords than make sense just to get the overflow for failgold.
    Since math, I have also putting chops into those two wonders.
    Civ4ScreenShot0025.JPG

    Qin took forever to give me Monarchy. I could have gotten it from WvO for drama earlier I think, but I want to keep my chances of getting music first.
    Now revolt to HR+Pacifism.
    Civ4ScreenShot0026.JPG
     
  9. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Spoiler 1AD overview :


    I think I want to save cash abit to make sure I can sprint through the music race. But then again, failgold could drop in any turn so not sure.
    If I get music, I think I'll tech compass next as I think it could be problematic to get that in a trade.
    Want to trade for MC/Calendar/Currency/CoL. If I could get Feud before starting to tech CS too I would be happy to get that bonus.
    Double-bulb into education and a single bulb into liberalism looks likely.
    Have to squeeze in HBR and archery somewhere too so I can start whipping HAs in capital for OF into Globe.
    Civ4ScreenShot0001.JPG
    Specialists carry alot of the economy, but I have put some effort into laying down somewhat early grassland cottages that I hope will give me some omph later on.
    Civ4ScreenShot0003.JPG
    I thought it where more, but 4 axes and 3 swords so far. The axes pretty early for protection and to raze the barb city, the swords abit later for nice overflow into failgold wonders.
    When whipping, food is worth twice it's value in hammers, and when put into a wonder with a resource, those hammers are worth twice their value in gold.
    So 1 food = 4 gold? That makes the 3F grassland farm look nice.
    Civ4ScreenShot0002.JPG
    I have tried to balance SoZ and Paya abit so I get even cash injections asap. But I only recently gave Qin Aestethics, and Willy haven't had it for that long either. Hopefully there are some wonderhoggers in the dark, because Elizabeth & Khan is unlikely to build anything.
    Will try to grow cities alot now and let whip anger decay (worst is up just above 20 turns I think), getting up to size alot and mature cottages and run the two scientists that library allows.
    I dream of a timely GA with the music artist and a swap to burocracy+caste and getting the 3-4 scientists I need and a pair of merchants. Willy built ToAr which is very very nice, overseas and all.
    Hope Amsterdam is coastal, then I'll try to remember getting compass into his hands early on so he can build a harbour and bump up yield from a trademission even further.

    I'm kind of tempted to just join the war against Khan right away too, he looks seriously weak, and if I get some chariots up I could snipe alot of axes easily.
    Civ4ScreenShot0000.JPG


     
  10. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Thats tricky here. I didn't really want to join a Phony war against Elizabeth as she can be super nice to trade with later on. And there was no way to get pleased with either early on neither.
    Thats a nice trick if it's doable, get pleased with one (or preferably both) and once they start their war you beg something from both of them. That way you get a peacetraty and they can't ask you to join.

    Thats why I closed borders with Elizabeth too, didn't want to risk getting that "We want you to stop trading with" which is impossible to ever agree too.
     
  11. mscellaneous

    mscellaneous Prince Supporter

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    Yes, probably. Not a fan of late game warfare though, so tedious. I will probably try to cheese a culture victory here.
     
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  12. LowtherCastle

    LowtherCastle Deity

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    An excellent way to get to pleased early on is to gift someone a city. That’s an instant +4 for trade relations and if it’s close enough to their capital plus one for liberating the city. I started trading resources with GK early on because I had already refused a trade demand or something and I wanted to have that option in my back pocket if I needed it. Even though he will still DOW At pleased. As will Lizzie. Catherine is a good leader for this strategy since settlers are cheaper.

    Of course you’re right, gifting the city to GK would also be an instant -4 or whatever to Lizzie for trading to her worst enemy. My idea was basically to protect myself from GKDOW.
     
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  13. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    I'm always confused about when to transition to that victory condition. Whenever I do it's usually very very late (I did so in the recent Wilhelm map).
    In my game here, I have Juda/Tao and possible Hindu abit later available, thats hardly ideal as it's one stone, one marble and one copper.

    Do you do that often? Any hints and tips about how to make the call and how to do it efficiently?
     
  14. mscellaneous

    mscellaneous Prince Supporter

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    Not really, I usually win by domination or conquest. However, in this game I pretty much ruled out a domination victory already by the end of the Genghis war. Main reasons being:
    1. have to recover economy (and self tech CoL and Currency)
    2. getting to military techs will take ages (Rifling & Steel probably, Assembly Line worst case)
    3. need to get Astronomy as well.
    So I evaluated Culture:
    • more than 9 cities
    • at least 3 religions (Conf & Christianity from Lizzy, Taoism from bulbing Philo)
    • 1 good GPP farm (Moscow)
    • 2 decent cottage cities (Karakorum & double Gem city)
    • share religion with Lizzy while generating Great Artist
    This looked pretty decent, so I took the lack of stone and marble for granted.

    As for approach, I am no culture expert, so I do it the old fashioned way:
    • Beeline Liberalism, back fill culture techs (Aesthetics, etc) later
    • Organized Religion to build missionaries, no state religion!
    • Stay in Slavery to whip temples, some monasteries and cathedrals / pagodas etc
    • Switch to Caste and Pacifism once all religions are nearly spread to 9 cities. Start generating Great Artists
    • Pray some nice AIs will drop by that are willing to trade stone and marble
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2021
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  15. LowtherCastle

    LowtherCastle Deity

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    Espionage culture should be a lot easier I would imagine. Especially if you keep GK alive.
     
  16. Powerfaker

    Powerfaker Warlord

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    I spent a turn checking the westcoast. Didn't want to murder seafood there. Then returned to start location to settle.

    Went BW first. The copper surprise was a lovely bonus. Worker first too which started chopping and mining, while growing to size 2 and producing a 2nd worker.
    Agri => AH => Fishing next. At size 2 producing 2 settlers while more chopping + hooking up food. City 2 during AH. City 3 during Fishing. 3 cities was quite painful maintenance already, so fishing became a first eco-tech sort of.
    Wheel => Pottery => Writing. Couldn't expand much now. To put growth power to use => slow-build workers + whip workboats and granaries, and eventually libraries. Being almost there a 4th city up north and a fifth city to borderpop into the gold.
    Sailing => IronWorking self-teched for a change (not the only player doing this I noticed) . No time to go Alpha and hope an AI would trade this with the upcoming gems/pig city.
    Aestethics for trade bait => Myst/Mason for GLH. Both working out fine. GLH built 375BC. Alpha trade made.
    Metal Casting => Priesthood => 1T away from Currency at 1AD. MC for forges, mainly for more happiness. PH to allow Monarchy trade. Curr because I can't wait for someone willing to trade it. In 10-20T the extra TR will have earned me back the investment. Also I'm heading for Civil Service, so Code of Laws next. The tech pace seems rather slow, so I think I can afford to go Music after CS. (CS will alow me to switch to both Bureau and HR in 1T)

    At 1AD 9 cities / 28 pop (just whipped 17pop for 5 forges past 3 turns). 1T away from hooking up Wine and Ivory. 3 cities are brand new, size 1-2. Gold city is permanent size 1 working the gold (no food there). A huge leap of happiness now, so from here I will grow a lot. Right now ± 85 beakers at break even. That will easily double up I expect in the next 10-15T.
    WvO managed to snatch the horse spot 2T before I got there. It was a late filler spot for me. Well, it will be easy to conquer whenever I want to, still very unpleasant. I will loose intercontinental trade when I attack him + possibly tech trade options
    GK hardly settled in my direction. I even the got the Rice in the middle of the jungle. He fought a war with Lizzy 450BC to 25BC, conquered 1 city. Hopefully he doesn't think of turning to me now.
    Wonder building was late at first, but now Colossus/Parthenon/SoZ/HG are already built, not Pyramids yet. Apart from HG all built by the Ai we met (English/Dutch/Chinese). Didn't meet any one else.

    As always I am working on a strong economy first, before thinking about how to win the game, so I don't know yet. I think it's better not to attack GK during the age he shines anyway, but later when he has fallen back, but thumbs up for the ones who managed to crush him already.
     
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  17. LowtherCastle

    LowtherCastle Deity

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    Well done on GLH. Sounds like you have a great game going.
     
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  18. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Yeah, that sounds really good! I ruled out GLH early on as I didn't meet the AIs on the other continent and didn't see any islands. And by the time I realized that I felt like that ship had sailed.
    But GLH is super good on this map.
     
  19. Powerfaker

    Powerfaker Warlord

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    I had no intention to build any wonder either.
    At 650BC or so I suddenly realized there was an oppurtunity. My pig city SE of cap was almost halfway a Lighthouse, it still had 4 forests, and it had an Iron+PH mine to work. Could do Masonry in 2T as well.
    All in all I would be able to do it in 10T or so. And the earliest wonders went late so felt like I had a chance. Right after I started there was a shock moment when someone completed ToA, which does make you nervous for the turns to come.

    I had a warrior standing for ages in a barb city on the east coast, forcing it too work (jungled) sugar instead of a forest hill, so it would grow to size 2 faster. That never worked , it was problably producing a worker, so I razed it and resettled it. But I noticed WvO borders right away when it had expanded to some ocean tiles.
     
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  20. LowtherCastle

    LowtherCastle Deity

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    Astute playing. I was definitely late to seeing Willem’s Culture. And I traded for sailing way after the fact. But what I really like about what you’re doing is staying in touch with the moment. In succession games we tend to reevaluate the situation every turn, which is critical. That’s what you did in deciding to go after the GLH. Kudos.
     
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