BOTM 217: Elizabeth, Deity - First Spoiler - 1AD

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Game of the Month' started by DynamicSpirit, Jul 18, 2021.

  1. DynamicSpirit

    DynamicSpirit Fear him of the pink tie Moderator GOTM Staff

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    BOTM 217: Elizabeth, Deity - First Spoiler - 1AD



    Use this thread to tell us what happened in your game, up to 1AD. Was the extra info about resource tiles useful? Have you met your neighbours? Did you figure out which AI was given extra resources? How is the game treating you?

    Reading Requirements
    If you are participating in BOTM 217, then you MUST NOT read this thread unless EITHER
    • You have reached at least 1 AD in your game, OR
    • You have submitted your entry

    Posting Restrictions
    • Do not disclose ANY events or information gained post 1 AD.
    • Do not reveal your final result if that happened after 1 AD.
    • Do not discuss the location of resources that may not show up before 1 AD (Iron is OK, coal and oil are not)
    • Do not post any savegame file from the game. Discussions and screenshots are fine but not actual games
     
  2. MarleysGh0st

    MarleysGh0st Prince

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    Well, that was not fun, at all.

    I took the Deity save, and followed the suggestion of settling on the PH next to the wet corn. My second city went to claim the copper, and my third city grabbed the second gold. As I was building another settler, Gilgamesh settled upriver of me, effectively cutting off my expansion. That final settler went to the river mouth. Meanwhile, Hannibal was plotting and there was nothing I could do to stop the inevitable.

    My high water mark:
    upload_2021-7-18_13-30-37.jpeg

    Hannibal went to war that turn, razing Nottingham. Elepults were among his reinforcements that completed his conquest in 350 BC.

    In the meantime, the work boat I had intended for Hastings went exploring to the east. I discovered enough to learn more about our starting position. Evil mapmaker, indeed. :nono:

    Well, now I can try the adventurer save, for "fun".
     
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  3. Xcalibrator

    Xcalibrator Ultraviolet Catastrophe

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    My Deity game went quickly, too. SIP, 2nd city by copper (same place as MG), 3rd SE of the gold after Hannibal stole the wheat from me. 4th was intended for MG's spot up north, but a barb city spawned S of the cereal up there so I nabbed the fur hill behind Hannibal's lines. I captured the barb city, which autorazed--I should have waited for it to grow despite the increase in capture difficulty. Then Hannibal resettled that spot before I could, so I settled on the hill 2S of the fish. City6 was going to be the marble/silver in Hannibal's backyard but he DoW'd before I could, so I settled him on my SE border with Sumer. My fur and NW fish cities autorazed on the first turn of the war. Nottingham held for a few turns, and I recaptured briefly, but it was plainly hopeless so I retired around 300 BC.

    If the furs, marble, silvers, and seafood in Hannyland were among the "few extra resources in a location that I think an AI will probably get to before you do," I'd say, uh yeah, probably, and it won't do you any good for very long even if you do beat them. With Hannibal's large hinterland (and elephants), and us being quickly hemmed in by the neighbors, I don't see this being very winnable. Perhaps if the AIs' dominant religion (Hinduism in my game) had spread to even one of my cities I could have converted and gotten on Hanny's good side, but I was so weak and puny he'd probably still be unavoidably drawn toward crushing me like a Brood X cicada.
     
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  4. Powerfaker

    Powerfaker Warlord

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    Deity, settled the PH too. Chopped into 2nd worker + 2nd city. The gold got me to pottery by then, so chop-1popwhipped granaries next.

    Then, when my next settler was ready I faced this
    Spoiler :

    Gilgamesh settles the copper that turn, and Hannibal the wheat, cutting off both my options and more. All that is left is the north. Things don't look good at this point.
    Civ4ScreenShot0010.JPG


    Embedded between Hannibal and Gilgamesh is also a bit scary, so checking the diplo front
    Spoiler :

    All pleased faces, excepty towards me cautious . hmmm
    Civ4ScreenShot0011.JPG


    Well, it's still early and from here things start getting better.
    (from here be careful checking pictures. I've mapped a lot and met all AI)

    I meet more AI. Gilgamesh appears to have a worst enemy and starts a war on him.
    Hannibal snatches the gold west of London too with another city, but leaves his north rim open with a ton of resources. Glad to discover it in time and settled 2 cities there. Hannibal meanwhile doesn't seem to care for border tensions. He has plenty of units but doesn't plot.
    I get to Music first and build GLib. I also have an academy

    Civ is totally not impressed by my achievements though
    Spoiler :

    Civ4ScreenShot0012.JPG


    At 1AD.
    Plenty of AI are in a different religion, so there's more hate among them then towards me. So I might survive.
    I just reached Paper and double bulbe Education immediately. Suddenly MilTrad feels very close. I still have my GArtist available to jump forward with a GAge and more GP. I see a prospect of winning here.

    Current state of tech trade
    Spoiler :

    Civ4ScreenShot0014.JPG


    Current Empire
    Spoiler :

    Civ4ScreenShot0015.JPG


    All that needs to happen now is that the AI leave me in peace while I do some teching and build some mounted force. So far I've exclusively relied on warriors, so a war now would be disastrous.
     
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  5. Xcalibrator

    Xcalibrator Ultraviolet Catastrophe

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    Why are you not dead yet? No iron, no copper, only warriors. Tons of cultural pressure along the Carthage border. Religious antagonism among the AI helps, but still.... And you've already got Education?! What's your trade strategy been? It looks like you're holding onto any tech monopolies you have (?).
     
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  6. LowtherCastle

    LowtherCastle Deity

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    I am abandoning my attempt at 50 BC. I actually thought I had this game dominated but last turn I was planning to address Gilgamesh because he was plotting and at cautious with me. I slept on it and in the morning forgot and hit enter and sure enough he declared with a stack of doom that I cannot possibly deal with. Pity.

    I settled in place my exploring warrior became bear meat a couple turns before discovering copper so I discovered it long after Gomez had settled it.

    I built the great wall before my second city. I met Hannibal on turn two so I knew early on that I didn’t really need the great wall but I wanted it anyway for the great spy. Because my rex was limited thusly Hannibal became a monster in my game. He was out-teching all the other AI‘s by at least twofold. I built a Trojan city three tiles due west of my capital to steal techs. So right now I have feudalism, machinery, and enough gold stored up to tech guilds in about 14 turns. I have the northern iron and I am planning to build the heroic epic in my hammer city up by the sheep, Making knights every two turns.

    Hannibal does not declare at pleased and I knew that gifting him the Trojan city would get me +4 plusmods.

    my second great spy is about to pop and I have plans to build a courthouse in my capital to speed up the third. I still have a ton of EP‘s for stealing techs but I will use the second one or the third one for more techs. The other spy I will use with Gilgamesh to drop his city defenses when I attack.

    I could’ve delayed Gilgamesh by 10 turns with a bribe for 10 bucks and then given him a trojan City to get him up to pleased. All three of us have the same religion but only recently so that it hasn’t gone into effect.

    Alas...
     
  7. Powerfaker

    Powerfaker Warlord

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    One thing I'm not is a diplomatic expert, so more luck than wisdom I suppose that I'm still alive. Maybe because I wasn't in Hannibal's way while expanding (he got the gold spot in my game), maybe I got trades /open borders a little bit earlier, so although cautious, enough points to hold off plotting. I had [-2] border tension for a while, then it dropped to [-1], have no idea why.
    Reading how everybody gets rocked surely makes me aware I should adress the diplo urgently and get Hannibal to pleased. I don't think I have anything to fear from Gilgamesh.

    I do have iron in my borders now, the mystery tile in the south from the beginning. York popped borders a 2nd time a few turns ago with help of NEpic culture, still have to hook it up. If necessary I can settle an extra city next to it (inside my borders) if I need more cultural defence.

    Most was self-teched. I went Aestethics and traded it around for Alphabet, Mathematics and Monarchy and that's it (oh, Medtation and Monotheism too). For sure Hannibal get's nothing from me, Gilgamesh no more either. From here I will only trade to get HBR, probably from Napoleon, and maybe Feudalism much later. Once I have vassals I can trade with them.
    I tried to grow my cities big using HR to stay happy. That helps a lot to raise tech rate.
     
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  8. DynamicSpirit

    DynamicSpirit Fear him of the pink tie Moderator GOTM Staff

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    This is pure speculation, and I don't know much about how the game mechanics works here, so feel free to shoot me down if this is wrong but.... if you are using HR to grow cities, that presumably means that, even though you only have warriors, you presumably have a lot of them. Is it possible that the numbers of warriors is making your power rating look high, and therefore putting the AI off attacking you?
     
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  9. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    I had a blast with the barbs, this is a large party why I love playing on deity, you never know what will happen and your life hangs on a thread.

    Spoiler T45 initial settlement and barb troubles. :


    In the pregame thread, I said I wanted to settle 1E of the corn, as that would give me the fastest corn possible... But when I started the game, I decided I wanted to leave room for a riverside city NE of that southern dry corn, and also save a forest, so I went for another hill.
    Civ4ScreenShot0002.JPG


    When the borders popped, I knew this would be a tough one. :D
    AIs closing in from all sides, this doesn't look pretty at all.
    Civ4ScreenShot0010.JPG

    Once agri was in, Gilga is already causally improving piggies in his second city.. Oh well, that gives me a slight bonus at least.
    Civ4ScreenShot0012.JPG
    I almost didn't dare hope that that tile was horses, but I was overjoyed to see them.
    No time for any economic tech though, I need chopping right away to have a chance to carve out something for myself here.
    Civ4ScreenShot0013.JPG

    Anyone else had problems with barbs from the north? I sure had. The northern warior there took a stance and killed an archer, only to see a new one further north. The southern warrior went up a hill from where Hannibals archer came the previous turn. (So I assumed it was safe), and got ambushed by a barb warrior.

    Civ4ScreenShot0019.JPG

    The turn BW is in, I spot copper... and a settler party from Giglamesh... Well, why not steal a spot 4 tiles away from my capital you greedy bastard?
    Civ4ScreenShot0020.JPG
    I must have been way to excited playing this, because I thought that spot was 100% safe, wanted to reposition the warriors who had backtracked to start fortify the pair on that tile where the archer now stands.
    The evil archer instagibbs one of the warrior pair, the other one jumps over the river and takes up position to lure the fiend over the river into the forest to get his deserved revenge...
    Civ4ScreenShot0021.JPG

    But the archer wasn't having any of that. Here I was really starting to lose my mind. Not only did my defenses go down, but now the north has turned into a fertile barb breedingground.
    Civ4ScreenShot0022.JPG

    Gilgas scout died too. That warrior on the gold moved to lure the archer over the river and iirc that guy won. The northern one who killed gilgas scout moved toward my capital though.
    Civ4ScreenShot0023.JPG
    A trio stod ready. Two of them gave their lives to save the pasture.
    Civ4ScreenShot0025.JPG
     
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  10. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Landgrabbing and city gifting.
    Spoiler T81 :


    The second windfall since the BFC horses pop, a forest regrowth! The game wants to compensate me for the loss of.. 4 warriors? Kind of lost count.
    During all of this time, the south was almost entierly quiet, I saw one barb archer for one turn moving around there, but nothing approached my cities thankfully.
    Civ4ScreenShot0026.JPG

    Tossing down this city was such a huge relief. If I can't get anything more in the far west or in the south, I can at least squeeze in 3 cities in the north.
    After I reached pottery, I more or less completely ignored commerce, focusing entierly on production. Must claim some land or perish.
    Civ4ScreenShot0029.JPG

    Seems like Hannibal has the same idea. :(
    Civ4ScreenShot0030.JPG
    And Gilgamesh...
    Civ4ScreenShot0031.JPG
    After I got Hastings in the south, the next two settlers are for my "buddies". >_<
    But even finding suitable gift locations seems problematic. Iirc the AIs won't accept cities that are under threat (or at least you won't get the liberation bonus for it), so I continued to wander south instead.
    Civ4ScreenShot0037.JPG


    I was abit annoyed with this spot, "eew, only a plains cow for food", but over the game, this was a really nice spot.
    Civ4ScreenShot0038.JPG
    "For to every one who has will more be given, and he will have abundance."
    I felt compelled to do this though, gilga is no joke.
    He does plot at pleased, but it's way way less likely than to keep him at cautious. Was very happy to see that he had Hammy as neighbour too so he have someone else to turn his attention to.
    Civ4ScreenShot0039.JPG
    Hannibal however, he does NOT plot at pleased. So gifting him this was really lovely.
    Civ4ScreenShot0040.JPG
    T72... After a mad dash in the landgrabbing and after gifting away 2 more settlers, the workers finally have time to cool it abit with the chopping and start to lay down some cottages.
    Civ4ScreenShot0041.JPG
    A while later, I also managed to snatch this spot. Wasn't much, but the furs and the arctic clams did help out too.
    Civ4ScreenShot0049.JPG



     
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  11. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Spoiler T115 :


    I noticed that Gilga had a spare cow so I begged him for it and the sweet fellow obliged! 10 turns of safety, 10 lovely turns when he can contemplate whom else he should kill.
    Civ4ScreenShot0051.JPG
    The worker had to stop mining and run to chop that forest to finish the chariot in time.
    Civ4ScreenShot0052.JPG
    Aaaaw, aren't you a sweet fellow Hannibal! Giving me something back after I gave you that city?
    Civ4ScreenShot0053.JPG

    T89 I finish aestethics, and T90 I have put some beakers into alpha, which I got from Nappy.
    I give Hammy math for IW. He is worst enemy of Toku (which seems to be struggling alot) and Brennus who is far away. I want to boost Hammy if I can because he will likely be in a world of hurt due to peaceweight.
    IW revealed two sources of iron, so one went to Hammy when he was lacking it later in the game.
    T92 I have finished priesthood and get monarchy from Gilga for Math+Alpha.
    Civ4ScreenShot0057.JPG

    And some actions start!
    Civ4ScreenShot0061.JPG

    Gilga started to plot, and I think it was after he was out of the peace treaty, so I got pretty darn nerveous.
    Had feud selected for alot of turns while saving up cash and scouted him to see where he was stacking up units, and it did seem like there was a small stack in Bad-Tibira.
    Meanwhile, Hammy bribed Napoleon to backstab Brennus. Smart move Hammy!
    Civ4ScreenShot0065.JPG

    Now I prepared to start mass-whipping axes. And I put alot of beakers into Masonry to beg it from Gilga to get 10 turns more to prepare...
    Next turn T103, he still had not declared so I successfully begged for masonry, screing up WFYABTA but possibly saving the game...
    But then, T104 he promptly declares on Hammy.
    Sneaky Gilga must have had a stack hidden somewhere where I couldn't find it.

    After this, I just did a bunch of buildup/teching and alot of boring trades for awhile.
    Civ4ScreenShot0070.JPG

    Hannibal didn't have much religion, and my Tao holy city apparantly infected him so badly that he converted, and then he also built AP in Tao. So I basically had to spread both Tao and Hindu almost everywhere to keep options open. Both to stay safe with both east and west.
    As of 1AD, I'm just building up and teching toward a standard cuirstomp. Bulbing toward lib, getting MT, building HAs and upgrade them to cuirs.
    Having no marble did make things abit annoying though, the southern iron/cow city (which I popped copper in!!) could almost certainly have built Taj.
    Civ4ScreenShot0092.JPG
     
  12. Xcalibrator

    Xcalibrator Ultraviolet Catastrophe

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    Hey krikav, thanks very much for the informative story. Part of my problem was failure to concentrate on land grabbing and spending too much effort on cottages/teching. And as you and LC both pointed out, gifting a city or two can pay huge dividends by keeping the AI from killing you (as quickly). That still leaves me the problem of how you guys manage to both build and tech so quickly, but I imagine that's harder to explain. I may be relying too much on whipping--better to crank out relatively more workers so they can chop, and let your city grow more? (My 2nd attempt at this game, I also settled on your bare plains hill, and things generally went a bit better--until Hannibal DoW'd me again. Onto try #3.)
     
  13. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Regarding @Powerfaker s situation.
    Warriors hardly do anything to get power rating up, don't know the exact numbers but to evade plotting from the AIs you need to be really strong. I think it's somewhere up around the same power rating or 1.5 or something like that.
    You don't get there with warriors, no matter how many.
    Nah, thats just plain dumb luck Hannibal haven't decided to have a snack.
    But those things happen too.

    Powerfaker, if I where you, I would carefully consider options to get Hanni up to pleased, even if that involves gifting away paper+education to the guy.
    Sure you might lose economics and he might get to muskets before you can hit him, but it's manageable, getting smashed while you build HAs would be such an anticlimax. :(

    Sad to see that rng punished @Xcalibrator @MarleysGh0st and @LowtherCastle early on. :(
     
  14. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    @Xcalibrator Yeah, landgrabbing is for sure the most important factor here, but luck likely plays in too. I see that my western wheat city was already taken in @Powerfakers game by the time I settled it. That city blocked of the north and gave me a strong core.
    But on the other hand... Powerfaker got some marble in return, so win some lose some. :)

    Regarding whipping, thats likely. I don't like whipping much, chops much more so.


    Here is the T53 overview (posted it above too).
    I got pottery T42, but capital doesn't have a granary, and neither does the other cities and no cottage in sight.
    Spoiler T53 Overview :

    Civ4ScreenShot0029.JPG


    Up at T72 capital is finally getting it's granary and the workers are laying down the first cottages.
    Note the forests outside of BFC in London toward gilgamesh, all those where chopped too.
    This was a very intense landgrab, and the added pressure of wanting to gift each of the neighbour a city basically had me sweating while playing. :D
    Spoiler T72 overview :

    Civ4ScreenShot0041.JPG


    T59 I have a screeenshot of statistics and by then I had 3 workers, I felt like that was way too few and that was partly the reason I never found any time to lay down cottages. But I was pushing on getting settlers out constantly.

    Here is shortly after I settled wheat town, here I was slow-building the settler for Hastings (city#4 by the iron/cow), but when I saw gilga moving in that direction I saw no other alternative than to whip away the gold (the corn went to York).
    But darn it, that whip hurt like a punch in the guts.
    Spoiler T56 screenshot. :

    Civ4ScreenShot0032.JPG


    Regarding on how to tech. Not sure what I did. Once I was laying down cottages I made sure to work them and grow cities to happycap.

    Luck with trades play in alot.
    I got math in a gift. :)

    Also think my tech situation is worse compared to Powerfaker.
    I bulbed Philo too.


    *EDIT*

    I found a tech screenshot. It's from T112 and at that turn I gave Hannibal Compass for Currency then Calendar for compass T113 with Hammy.
    Thats it for trading up until some time after 1AD.
    Spoiler T112 Screenshot :


    Civ4ScreenShot0087.JPG


    */EDIT*
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2021
  15. DynamicSpirit

    DynamicSpirit Fear him of the pink tie Moderator GOTM Staff

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    Thanks @krikav for the really detailed info about how you played and the answers to everyone. All very interesting and useful! And exactly why I like seeing how people who play the GOTMs do.
     
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  16. Powerfaker

    Powerfaker Warlord

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    @krikav
    Thanks for the advice. Indeed I may have to give Hannibal tech(s) and should do so. My main concern is I don't want to see my cuir window crumble. I may have been over-protective here tech-wise, and as a result gambling with diplo. If you are confident you can pull off cuir conquest easily in you game, then I shouldn't be worried that I can in mine.

    Appreciate the nice extensive write up of your game too. Quite educational how one plays deity. Especially to prioritize land grab over longer term efficiency (forgo some tile improvement / granaries etc to do more chopping) is a learning point for me (need to grow over dislike).

    Speaking of win some loose some. I think you got the wheat spot because you couldn't keep that area safe, so Hannibal didn't dare send a settler there.:) But he had to send it somewhere else of course.
     
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  17. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Could be!
     
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  18. Conquistador 63

    Conquistador 63 Deity

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    I took the contender save with a clear plan in mind before even starting the game.

    As Deity is still far away from my gameplay level, even after reading a few good advice threads on the forums (especially the old one by Snaaty's with the cuirassier beeline similar to @Powerfaker and @krikav current plans), I did not feel confident enough to play a regular game and decided to try a religious game for a change. :please:

    I settled in place, planning to maximize early research, with the following goals:
    • Survive the deity barbs: they delayed my early expansion with some pillaging and annoying barb city spawning, up to t44, then things got quiet on this front.
    • Expand as fast as possible, trying to get some resources: I failed to find copper and Hanni setttled near the wheat, but got city #2 by cows/silk/iron @t46 & #3 grabbing gold, horses and sharing corn @t59. Much later city #4 was founded on the coast, getting sheep, for reasons to be explained below.
    • Avoid getting DoWs from my mighty neighbors: I prayed hard for the RNG gods and so far they kept me safe from unwanted wars :bowdown:
    • Oracle Theology: done in t72 1120BC :thumbsup:
    • Try to keep parity in the tech race, to be able to gift techs and make some AIs like me enough to vote for me: doing quite fine here; also adopt OR/HR ASAP for favorite civics bonus (t87, 700BC);
    • Build/Chop the AP, staying under a heathen religion as little time as possible: done, from t88 to t99 (400BC) :worship:
    • Find a common enemy to gain mutual war diplo bonuses: Hammy, with his odd high peace weight value, was the guy. At some point, Gilga, Toku and Nappy were already at war with him.
    • Meanwhile, send missionaries to those AI that did not get the AP religion by autospread: well, here my plans started to derail...
    I thought I was lucky getting automatic AP religion spread to Hanni (t74), Toku (t81, without OB!), and Gilga (t86). My missionaries then spread it to Hammy & Nappy (t96) and @T100 the last one reached one of Brennus' cities. I really did not know what I was thinking when I joined a phony war vs Hammy before actually trying to spread the religion, which obviously failed next turn! :hammer2:So, no way to send another missionary or getting autospread while in this war. :aargh:

    However, things got even more complicated, as Toku (t82) and later Gilga (t106) eventually converted to Christianity. Actually, maybe Toku would have won the game by then if all AI were already AP members. Things aren't looking so bright. Might have to wait till Optics and send a missionary on a caravel to Brennus, and get Liberalism to try to convert these AI into Free Religion, also while getting enough friends to vote for me.
    :hmm:

    After all, getting an AP win on Deity might prove not so easy/cheesy as one would think...
     
  19. LowtherCastle

    LowtherCastle Deity

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    Whether you succeed or not, it sounds like you’re doing a great job of it.
     
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  20. Fine_Distinction

    Fine_Distinction Prince

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    Hi, I am back after a long hiatus. I am not eligible to play easier saves for the competition, but I still remember brutal Tokugawa deity game, so decided to play "hard monarch" version just for fun.

    I played quickly and late at night, just to see if surfing vs. Monarch AI with deity units will be a problem. Couple observations:

    * staying alive on Monarch (AI Deity units) was not a problem at all.
    - Barbs: Saw only a few barb warriors, all wounded. Got some XP from their suicidal attacks. No barb ever entered my borders!
    - Neighbors: both Hanny and Gilga became Buddhists, I converted, too, immediately when I had a chance, and agreed to all their demands and they got to Friendly quickly (even though I traded with a worst enemy of one of them)

    * Land grab: Managed to settle 6 cities, but the last one was really crappy (2nd fur city, overlapping marble & silver, and grabbing Fish in the future)
    - I was not competing for Copper - got Iron in my borders - but Gilga still send 2 settlers to that place in the same time and they wandered there for good couple turns :lol:
    - I was not sure how much I like potential city down South and later had only a choice to settle a narrow stripe of resource-rich tundra above Hanny (probably should put just one city there)

    Strangely, nobody attacks me even though my strength is 0.3-0.4 vs neighbors. Hannibal is teching very well, but I have a couple of GP stashed away and are building marble/Phil-friendly wonders. I played this game without any preparation, was expected to get DoW early. Now probably I will try to tech to cuirassiers, but may get them late, since I was not following any particular bee-line.

    I was never done cuir war, will be grateful for tips. What is the good date to get them on this "hard" Monarch? Is it worth to get Nationalism or Mil Trad from Liberalism? Should I stop trading techs now (was trading liberally until now). How many cuirs I need for a rush/city? Is it worth to build stables? Probably just in 1-2 cities?

    If I attack someone, it will probably be Hannibal, since he is a tech leader and has fewer cities and a Great Lighthouse. Or is it better to attack somebody further away since my direct neighbors love me?

    Thanks @DynamicSpirit for the fun game and everybody for interesting reports :)

    EDIT: Just checked that Gilgamesh can plot at Friendly - and there is fist already - so I should probably be more worried about him, come up with a strategy to survive until I am ready to attack him and take him out first?


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    DynamicSpirit and krikav like this.

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