[BTS] BOTM 237: Bismarck the Bully, Emperor, starts 17th June

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Game of the Month' started by Noble Zarkon, Jun 15, 2022.

  1. LowtherCastle

    LowtherCastle Deity

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    Unfortunately I cannot find the post where this was explained in detail, I think by @ZPV, but I can’t remember for sure. In any case, the gist as I recall, hopefully correctly, is twofold:

    1. It is harder to get the AI to cease-fire. (which I consider more problematic in terms of stealing workers)
    Edit: See WT’s post below.

    2. When declaring peace, you get three times as much stuff from the AI as normal.

    It’s entirely possible my memory is failing me on number one. But not on number two.

    There are other consequences of aggressive AI, of course, such as more likely to declare war and so forth but I never paid much attention to those details.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2022
  2. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    exact opposite. It's super easy. It hinges on putting a military unit in one of the their BFCs. DeGaulle is famous for talking in 1 turn.
    @LowtherCastle : you were always the go-to guy for knowing exactly how quickly they will talk, and how a loss in war negatively affects that, so it's odd you're rusty on this point.
    Keep in mind, if their archer wanders into your BFC, that works against you when trying to get a cease fire.
    I can't recall if it's just 2 tiles away (so diagonal 2 tiles works or if it actually has to be in the BFC.) Anyone know off hand?
     
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  3. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    I think another strange effect is you can trade say BronzeWorking, and then IronWorking, etc. on the same turn. Where normally, the next tech up the tree can't be traded til next turn.
     
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  4. LowtherCastle

    LowtherCastle Deity

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    Ahhhhhhhh yes, now I remember. Thank you so much.


    But when the AI will talk is a separate matter to whether they will cease-fire. I have not forgotten that calculation. I have it in my spreadsheet and use it frequently.
     
  5. LowtherCastle

    LowtherCastle Deity

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    Truth
     
  6. LowtherCastle

    LowtherCastle Deity

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    When an AI will talk during war:

    iRefuseToTalkWarThreshold = {5,6,8,10,12}
    DeGaulle = 5...

    Refuse Duration = iRefuseToTalk * {20+(80*AIWarSuccess*2/HumanWarSuccess}/100

    From that equation, to get Degaulle to talk in just one turn our success versus his success has to be 8:0. (Or 32:3 and so on.)

    The tricky part is calculating the respective war successes. If we attack a unit or worker and win we get +4. If we attack and lose he gets +3. If we attack two workers on the same tile we get +4+1=+5. So the simplest solution for dG is to attack workers on separate tiles, giving us +8. Capturing a city is worth 10, and if you killed a unit innthe process +4. When he attacks and wins he gets something but I forget what, probably 4. Similar with when he attacks and we win. I’m rusty on this part.

    The actual war success is 1+(total war success calculation) to make it non-zero in the Equation.

    If you’re stealing one worker then the equation works out like this:

    Code:
    RTT   Duration
     5         2t DeGaulle
     6         3t Asoka, Catherine, Fred, Gandhi, Hatty, Lincoln, Louis, Mansa, Pacal, Wang
     8         4t many
    10         5t many
    12         6t Sitting Bull
    
    RTT = RefuseToTalk
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2022
  7. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    Thx. Bookmarked. Stating the obvious... 'Aggressive AI' has no effect on 'turns to talk', only if they will cease fire and how much they'll give. And IIRC, threatening an additional city gives you even more payment for peace.
     
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  8. LowtherCastle

    LowtherCastle Deity

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    In my spreadsheet I found this that I believe I cut and pasted from ZPV:

    Code:
    CF/DoP equation
    half-ceasefire: We pay (100+(ourCities+theirCities)*3+ourpop+theirpop+ theirwarsuccess*20) *(Theirpower+10)/(OurPower+TheirPower+10)
     forDaggerAIs: *9*Theirpower/10*OurPower
     forAIsw/morelandthanus: *Theirland/Ourland*.9
     forWarPlanAIs: *35*TheirPower/10*(OurPower+4*TheirPower)
     forTotalWarAI: *2
    eitherDogpileAI: *1.5
    if theirendangeredcities>ourendangeredcities  /3 (AggAI only)
    round down to nearest 10
    ZPV somehow used this to calculate our value and the AI value and the difference in value determined what they were willing to give in a DOP. For aggressive AI the key is to have more of their endangered cities than ours to divide our pay value by 3.

    If I’m reading this right, the aggressive AI divide by three factor is only significant if we have endured a fair amount of losses so that’s what makes the AI trade value better for us.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2022
  9. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    IIRC DanF5771 calculated how we could get free Alphabet for peace from Toku in the multi-gawa SGotM.
     
  10. LowtherCastle

    LowtherCastle Deity

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    OK so I found these posts from Dan F. The first one gives a pretty good explanation of the situation. Of course he goes far beyond my abilities in terms of determining all that stuff but it doesn’t really matter because the basic calculation is somewhat clear and when you try to get a good peace deal either he is willing to do it or you power up some more or beat the crap out of him some more or a combination thereof.

    Incidentally, siege weapons are especially valuable in terms of creating this Endwar value difference because you can greatly increase your chance of war success and decrease his chance for war success. Furthermore if you attack with a catapult and it withdraws, I’m pretty sure that does not give him any war success. Combining bombardment with red lining his units can drastically minimize his war success. War success is by far the largest factor in the equation.


     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2022
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  11. Fippy

    Fippy Mycro Junkie Queen

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    Other than that, they will plot war constantly ;)
    From AI survivor where they always played with Agg AI: I cannot believe Roosevelt walked all across the map to declare on Lizzy, two very peaceful AIs.
    There are no peaceful AIs anymore with this option on.
     
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  12. Dhoomstriker

    Dhoomstriker Girlie Builder

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    Yes, where are the Challenger and Adventurer saved game "choices"? :shifty:


    Unless there were map-maker shenanigans of renaming another Leader to the name of Bismarck, we should be able to use the following template data from a previous game as a reference:

    With all of this talk of getting techs for peace, has anyone tested whether a tech which an AI received in trade is eligible to be given to us via war? Is a peace treaty a way around of the no-tech-brokering rule?

    Actually, it is also worth checking the opposite... if we're losing in a war and we manage to get a tech in trade from another AI, can we "broker" that tech for a peace treaty? Given that there may be Aggressive AIs possibly declaring war when THEY feel ready for war, this situation may actually come up.


    How about if you have a Vassal? Can you gift a brokered tech to your Vassal? More importantly, can the AIs do so?
     
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  13. High King J.J.

    High King J.J. Prince

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    Spoiler threads to share our bitterness?
     
  14. Noble Zarkon

    Noble Zarkon Elite Quattromaster - Emperor (BTS) Super Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

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    Now open, thanks.
     
  15. The_J

    The_J Say No 2 Net Validations Administrator Supporter

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    Since I just had to check in here to put this on the main page and on Twitter, I have to say the setup is quite ironic, because that one thing was definitely a culture victory.
    But now I'm out again :D.
     
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  16. Noble Zarkon

    Noble Zarkon Elite Quattromaster - Emperor (BTS) Super Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

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    Good point, well made :mischief:
     
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