BOTM 49 Final Spoiler - Game submitted or abandoned

[kcd_swede]

BOTM 49 Final Spoiler

Reading Requirements

Stop! If you are participating in BOTM 49 Legend of the Sampo, then you MUST NOT read this thread unless

• you have submitted your entry OR
• you will not submit your game

Posting Restrictions

• Do not post any savegame file from the game. Discussions and screenshots are fine but not actual games.

..........................................

If you haven't already done so in the first spoiler, I would encourage you to tell us about your early game (up to about 3000BC) first:
Where did you settle? Why?
What were your first 3 techs? Why?
Did you prioritize any tile improvements? Which ones?

Did you find the Sampo? What was your strategy for taking control of it?


Did you have fun?
How did you do in the unofficial gauntlet; when did you get the Sampo into your cultural borders?

 

[ZPV]

If you haven't already done so in the first spoiler, I would encourage you to tell us about your early game (up to about 3000BC) first:
Where did you settle? Why?
What were your first 3 techs? Why?
Did you prioritize any tile improvements? Which ones?

Did you find the Sampo? What was your strategy for taking control of it?


Did you have fun?

The early game:
I settled NW to have the deer in my first ring and for the possibly easier trade connections.
I cottaged the capital and a couple of other river tiles, to make it easier to research what I needed to, and later pay the bills. I don't think I built a single farm (I didn't realize I had Agriculture).
My early techs were
3760 Mining
3200 Bronze Working
2800 Animal Husbandry
2440 The Wheel
1600 Horseback Riding
1480 Archery

Need I say any more?

I DoWed the Inca in 1360BC, capturing Cuzco and coastal Tiwanaku with mostly chariots by 1120BC.
I did a bit of scouting with sentry units, so I was able to glimpse a highly-promoted machine gun and an ironclad (both barbarian), but they deleted themselves before I could get a unit over there.
I found Sampo ~350BC, with a nearby Barbarian city, and promptly ignored it, having not read the whole intro thread...
Without the barb units that were supposed to be there, the gauntlet probably wasn't as interesting as it was supposed to be. :/

The rest of the game was a succession of Horse Archer spam wars, finishing with conquest in AD620 with a grand total of 15 technologies known (sailing, pottery, up to Maths and up to Iron Working). I had to be careful and pillage a bit at the end, to prevent a strike (I kept almost all of the mainland cities), but there was always more gold coming from city capture.

Unfortunately I lost my Combat5+Shock horse archer (that wasn't a GG) in taking the last of Tokugawa's cities. Oh well, these things happen.

Yes, I had fun. Thanks for the scenario, kcd_swede

 

[Sleepless]

Well a very very very slow domination victory 1824. perhaps if I put some more thought into these games might finish with a lot better score.

Found the Sampo with the MG embedded so thought better of attacking that!!!! It did take a while to realise perhaps I could culture pressure Sampo which by the end gave me the gold. Even longer before I realised I could do the same on the other side to pick up some much needed happies/health by which time I triggered the dom limit.
The Mobile Arty died quite easily against my CG3 LB. With a GG healer in the city it just kept attacking even with its health reducing each time. Also faced a few pikes/LBs

Economy wise I spent a lot of the game at a negative balance and teched very slowly. Be interesting to see if anyone makes a space victory though by capturing Sampo you would at least have a nice city site as all the rest in the game were pretty sucky.

 

[vranasm]

rage quit at 1695 AD after yet another attempt at tokugawa. didn't enjoy this one and won't submit.

 

[nocho]

Everything went fine and dandy, the 3 AIs on our land mass are dead soon enough, but things go a bit slower than hoped while eliminating Toku. Pretty bad rolls on his penultimate city that I do capture, but that doesn't leave units for the last city. So I sign peace to create and ship in fresh units when an AP vote comes up. Huh? Oh yeah, I captured all but one of Toku's cities so obviously I'll have some with the AP religion (confu IIRC). Anyway, misread and think the vote is for resident but it is for AP cheese. I accidently vote for Toku, but think, oh well, he'll be dead soon anyway. Next turn, AP loss 1130AD. :suicide:

 

[Orion071]

Well, at 1 AD I was in a painful war with HC after having lost several units at 80+% odds. I got a few techs for peace and regrouped. I finally finished him off in 540 AD.

I kept Izzy around for a few turns as a trade partner, but after I passed her in tech, I attacked with raging Berserkers. Her capitol was a tasty double Holy city, but when I took it, it only had 1 shrine. I quickly popped a Prophet and that city was basically paying for my empire.

Again, I kept Darius around until I had traded for everything he had. Unfortunately, I couldn't really attack him until Riflemen. By the time I finished him off, it was 1836 AD. Since it was so late already, I might as well go for the unusual Space Victory. My cities were being powered by the awesome Sampo city and I had 3 times the land and 4 times the population of Toku. My only problem was that I was soooo close to the domination limit that I had to be careful. In fact, after I researched the last tech, I had to switch out of Free Speech so the Sampo city wouldn't pop its borders again and give me the Domination limit.

Final result: Space Victory, 1967 AD, 30973 points. Not a great result, but it was a tricky start and any win on this map is a good one.

 

[Orion071]

Economy wise I spent a lot of the game at a negative balance and teched very slowly. Be interesting to see if anyone makes a space victory though by capturing Sampo you would at least have a nice city site as all the rest in the game were pretty sucky.

I went up to the Sampo city pretty late and captured it with Berserkers and Kinghts (around 1600 AD). I didn't notice anything unusual until I went up north on the coast and saw a Mobile Artillery chilling in a Barb city. Yeah, I didn't bother taking that city. IIRC, the Sampo city gave me Corn, Rice, Wheat, Cows, Dyes, Silver and Gold.

After I submitted, I tried again to see how fast I could get a Conquest. I took out the first 2 civs with Chariots, took out Darius with Swords, and Toku with Berserkers/Elephants. But I still didn't finish until 1270 AD. Very impressive ZPV!

 

[kcd_swede]

rage quit at 1695 AD after yet another attempt at tokugawa. didn't enjoy this one and won't submit.

Sorry to hear that.

Just curious... was there anything specific you didn't like about the game design? I'd like to avoid putting stuff in the games that just annoy people... usually.

 

[vranasm]

Sorry to hear that.

Just curious... was there anything specific you didn't like about the game design? I'd like to avoid putting stuff in the games that just annoy people... usually.

It just happens. i wasn't clearly the target audience.

The first problem being my expectations on normal Monarch map (that is purely my fault) and subsequent problems with every AI having capital on hill and strong starting position, but us very subpar start (I guess you can give us good land and tough opponents, but giving us crap land and really tough opponents is something not enjoyable for me...it's like going with head against wall). At least you gave us reasonable horses.

I guess Toku being other "continent" reachable by galley was nice touch though.

I was in the end too unpatient, I don't blame mapmaker for this ;-), I guess I just like normal maps better. But I understand people can be bored after all those years.

Will wait for some normal map on higher difficulty ;-).
Ha! for inspiration look at the last nice NC Sury map... now that was a start ;-), dalamb for sure knows how to lure us.

 

[Sleepless]

I went up to the Sampo city pretty late and captured it with Berserkers and Kinghts (around 1600 AD). I didn't notice anything unusual until I went up north on the coast and saw a Mobile Artillery chilling in a Barb city. Yeah, I didn't bother taking that city. IIRC, the Sampo city gave me Corn, Rice, Wheat, Cows, Dyes, Silver and Gold.

After I submitted, I tried again to see how fast I could get a Conquest. I took out the first 2 civs with Chariots, took out Darius with Swords, and Toku with Berserkers/Elephants. But I still didn't finish until 1270 AD. Very impressive ZPV!

No MG!!!! Perhaps if I have a save I'll load it up and see how many knights it takes to knock that out.

 

[MarleysGh0st]

Well a very very very slow domination victory 1824. perhaps if I put some more thought into these games might finish with a lot better score.

Ha! Let me give you a lesson in very very very slow domination victories!

Having started a war against Sitting Bull in 1 AD, I capture his three cities by 680...but he's still alive! Oh, he's got one more across the sea, on the border of Tokugawa's land! I build some galleys and capture that one to wipe out the Inca in 1030.

Having seen the fort on the way to conquering that city (and having long ago spotted the Ironclad that reminded me of Utnapishtim from an earlier game), I settle Bjorgvin in 1060. Some barb horsemen show up and raze it, so I rebuild it as New Bjoryvin in 1260. Meanwhile, that last Incan city has been surrounded by Tokugawa's cultural borders. I've already refused one AP vote to hand that city over to him, but holding the city seems hopeless and my expansion has depressed my economy, so I gift it to him in 1160. My three garrison units are ejected from Tokugawa's territory, thereby leading me to discovering the secret valley. Shades of Shangri-La!

So, my units explore that valley and discover that there's no way in or out past those mountains and lakes. Ultimately, I delete the units in frustration, but I'm convinced I've overlooked something. Forts work as canals in BTS, right? I built a city next to one of those lakes, but the game wouldn't let me build a ship there. Did I need to build a chain of forts from the coast so that a galley could be moved to the lake? Would that have worked?

Anyway, I moved enough units to capture Vandal in 1560, thereby controlling the Sampo. Thanks to that previous game featuring Utnapishtim and the unforgettable Humbaba, I remember the trick to exploiting the Sampo--build a fort on it!

So, my health and happiness are in good shape, but the AI have incredible economies compared to my own. (Really incredible. Even with their commerce bonuses, I can't believe the GNP figures that the demographics screen was reporting.) When Isabella goes to war against Darius in 1775, I decide to take advantage of the opportunity and attack Isabella. Her first city falls quickly, then my offensive bogs down when her longbows suddenly upgrade to riflemen. But the offensive does continue, and Babylon is conquered in 1909.

I go to war against Darius in 1913 and take three of his cities before giving him a peace treaty for Optics and some gold, while I turn my attention Khoisan, the barb city next to the Ironclad. I really should have continued the war against Darius, instead, because the barbs have a huge stack of rifles and horsemen, and my first assault is a dismal failure. I finally take the city in 1934. I resume the war against Darius in 1938, but a border pop in 1939 finally pushes me over the domination limit.

And Sleepless thought 1824 was slow!

But what was Tokugawa doing?

Seriously, what was Tokugawa doing? He never gave me open borders, so I never saw any of his cities except that one I gave him on the border. He was the head of the AP and his own votes frequently had him on the verge of a Religious victory, but he never went to war, despite gaining a substantial tech lead and having a powerful economy. While my galleys were ferrying troops between the two hemispheres, I even saw that he had a destroyer cruising his home waters. I expected that destroyer to use my galleys for target practice, as the opening salvo of a blitzkrieg attack, but it never came.

What did you do to the real Tokugawa, kcd_swede?

 

[Bebekija]

1585Ad Domination.

A mediocre finish date due to very bad decisions in the late BCs.


Actually the beginning was OK. The choice of my three first city sites was good I believe, and I definitely made the best out of our starting area.
It's a shame that both SB and Izzy decided to settle their second cities in my direction though so these 3 cities was really all I could get.
Reading the spoilers, I realize that maybe I should have tried to rush Izzy with chariots. I really considered it at some point, but then I decided that going directly for HAs was a better option .

Soon enough I spotted this "unusual" unit :

Spoiler :

I figured that the Sampo had to be on the other side, so I settled my 4th city coastal to start exploring in this direction.

This is where I made my first mistake : I settled this city too close to SB's capital, and was crushed by his culture. So I made my biggest mistake and decided to switch targets (I was going for Izzy) and attacked him in 1AD instead. But of course, protective archers when his two main cities are on hill = pain.....

Eventually I finished him (~500 AD I think ), but my economy was hurting (not enough spoils of war...) and I was getting seriously behind in techs so I decided to stop there, build up my empire, bulb Paper->Edu->Lib then take Mil.Trad. and wrap things up with Cuirs.

I used the remnants of my SB army to conquer the barb city that had appeared 1NE of the Sampo. It was only defended by 3 archers (no MG...) so that was an easy task.
This city clearly made my day : Rice + Corn + Cows + Gold + Silver + Sampo + FPs + Hills + Riverside = killer GP Farm. I quickly settled another city next to it for the rest of the goodies and 2 others for the clams + crabs.

With all of these resources building up was easy and I reached Mil.Trad. ~1300AD.

1440 AD I attack Darius and by 1530 both him and Izzy are gone (oh how I love Cuirs....)

After that it was just a matter of waiting for the cities to come out of revolt, and planting 5-6 filler cities to reach the threshold. In the meantime, I had ~20 Cuirs to spare, so I took 2 cities from Toku for score, and for fun !!



So thanks kcd for this map! I was actually quite pleased wth it, having to make the most out of crappy land is always interesting.

I have a couple of questions about the map though :

- Barbarians : obviously you put some uber barbarian units near the Sampo (on it?) to spice things up a bit. Wouldn't it have been better though to create a barb city on the sampo so they actually protect it?
Cause in my game, I believe all these units went directly to the first barb city that spawned on this continent, and stayed there, while others seem to have had a very different experience. In a competitive game this is something you'd probably want to avoid.

- There is whole portion of the map (center of the western continent) that was unreachable either by Toku or by us. What was the purpose of that piece of land?

- What's up with that ??? :

Spoiler :

 

[ZPV]

- Barbarians : obviously you put some uber barbarian units near the Sampo (on it?) to spice things up a bit. Wouldn't it have been better though to create a barb city on the sampo so they actually protect it?
Cause in my game, I believe all these units went directly to the first barb city that spawned on this continent, and stayed there, while others seem to have had a very different experience. In a competitive game this is something you'd probably want to avoid.

I only know of three "special" units.

There are two routes to the barbs/Sampo. One is around the ice in the north (which is protected by an ironclad and ocean), while the other is onto a hill south of the ice, where there is a fort which was the machine gun's original home.
If I had to guess, I'd say the mobile artillery started on the Sampo sign.

Unfortunately, the two land units seem to have buggered off to hang out in whichever barb city is founded first, and the ironclad probably deleted itself. (I suspect these are what happened in all the games, just different dates discovering them changed people's perceptions - I've played on after submitting, and found the two units in a barb city in my game.)

 

[adrianj]

Domination victory 1410 AD.

After eliminating Sitting Bull with Axes and Chariots, I eventually killed off Isabella and Darius with Elephants and Catapults. Toku was a complete non-event in this game, though he was teching ahead of me quite well.

Once I'd discovered the Sampo, and the land around it it became clear that there was enough land for domination without requiring any war with Toku. So that's exactly what I did. I didn't tech very far past Construction, HBR and Currency. I picked up CoL and Aesthetics through a temporary peace deal with Izzy, and later teched Drama so I could use the cultural slider. Toku was learning Education when the game ended.

I tried putting some cultural pressure on the Sampo, thinking I could capture it that way. I even made up a brief test game to see what would happen with the MG/Arty - to my relief they would have been eliminated. So I bombed my second GArtist in a city near it. My first GArtist I *accidentally* triggered a Golden Age instead of the culture bomb, but in hindsight it was probably the right move as it helped me with getting the settlers out and the cultural borders expanded.

Fun game kcd. . Personally, I liked the twist to the game that made it more difficult.

 

[Bebekija]

Unfortunately, the two land units seem to have buggered off to hang out in whichever barb city is founded first, and the ironclad probably deleted itself. (I suspect these are what happened in all the games, just different dates discovering them changed people's perceptions

My point exactly.

Those units were supposed to defend the Sampo and this part of the land, but wandered off instead, and finally settled in the first barb city to spawn.
The thing is, the location of the barb city spawns is somewhat random, and whether the uber barbs settle near the Sampo (like in some people games) or in a remote corner of the map (like in my game), would have a big influence on the outcome of the game.

But again, if that's the price to pay to enjoy such original scenarios, then so be it !

 

[kcd_swede]

I have a couple of questions about the map though :

- Barbarians : obviously you put some uber barbarian units near the Sampo (on it?) to spice things up a bit. Wouldn't it have been better though to create a barb city on the sampo so they actually protect it?
Cause in my game, I believe all these units went directly to the first barb city that spawned on this continent, and stayed there, while others seem to have had a very different experience. In a competitive game this is something you'd probably want to avoid.

- There is whole portion of the map (center of the western continent) that was unreachable either by Toku or by us. What was the purpose of that piece of land?

- What's up with that ??? :

[/SPOILER]

A pre-founded Barb city would have made the barbs behave more similarly from game to game. I judged that fitting the scenario was more important since barb behavior was unlikely to make a substantial difference in the most competitive games (or so I reasoned). I would have preferred this to be at an even lower level where added random factors have even less meaning in differentiating players of similar skill. But the level was established long ago, and the Sampo had been missing for so long I just couldn't wait another 4 months to have you find it.

Originally, there was a third entry to the Sampo by going through Toku's land. Had to delete that or the game could end up playing like Emperor level or playing like noble level, depending on random factors. So after testing, I decided to seal that off... and made land unavailable to affect Domination victory balances in a few different strategies. This I hope left it a game of skill by recognition and response.

Why am I telling you all this??? I must be crazy. Which is probably a more accurate reason why I made the choices I made.

 

[ChrisFromLux]

By 1AD, I had captured one of Isabella's cities, and razed a newly founded one near my borders with HA's.
After Peace for Techs, because of 2 Spears in her Capital, I had turned towards Sitting Bull and taken his 3 cities quite easily, killing him in 300BC.

In 75AD, I DOWed Isabella again, but was only able to take a smaller city west of her Capital. Attacking her Capital, I lost 4 of my 5 Flanking-II-HA's, although each one had 50% Withdrawal-odds. That did hurt, and I had to sign Peace again to save my remaining HA's from her incoming reinforcements.

I then changed strategy: I traded for Construction with Darius, and started building Catas everywhere. From there on, the wars went much better and without further problems. Isabella was finally killed in 960AD.
In 1050AD, I DOWed Darius and killed him in 1190AD.

Last target was Toku, but that turned into a nightmare: although there was only a small lake/river/whatever around, he had built some 7 Caravels and 5 Galleys!
After I had (with 5 Galleys) shipped over 10 units and 10 Catas on the small southern passage, they showed up and killed most of my Galleys.
My units quite easily took his most eastern city, and because I had financial problems, I razed it (next mistake). Without reinforcements, I went for his other coastal city, when Macemen and XBows showed up!

Suiciding all Catas and most units, I still managed to take the Double-Holy-city, and I kept it. Then, I signed Peace again, to be able to ship over my 30+ units waiting on my shores. Of course, he resettled his razed city, and very soon, my Galley-passage was blocked by his culture! I had to take the long way around the Cow-Fort.

It took an eternity, but after they finally were stationed in my newest city, I DOWed him again and took his central city, after having bombed down his 125%-defenses!

Then I split my forces, to attack and raze his 2 remaining cities, suiciding a lot of units ... to finally win a 1710AD-Conquest-Victory!


I guess this also showed that I'm not used at all to any sort of Rushes ... normally, I build up an early economy, and then attack with Catas and Axes, earliest. Usually, I go on the Offensive with Macemen!
Here, I stopped teching during Monarchy ...


Regarding the Sampo: after I had spotted that Ironclad, and being engaged in wars with SB and Isabella, I decided to go for Conquest, and ignore the Sampo and whatever other nice units the Barbs got.

I liked the set-up!
Thanks, kcd!

 

[Jouzou]

Couldn't finish this one. The quest for Sampo was too much to handle for this finnjävel. However, I think there was absolutely nothing wrong with the map; I appreciated the scenario very much which is why I'm extra sorry for giving up.

My demise was trying and failing to chariot rush Isabella. I think the idea was right; she had no metal and bowmen do not get a bonus against mounted. However, I destroyed most of my military on a stupid suicide attack against Babylon. I should've kept pillaging and choking her while waiting for reinforcements but good ol' impatience got the better of me.

It's very well possible that the game would've been still winnable, but I didn't feel like continuing.

Are abandoned saves of any value to you? If they are, I will gladly submit.

 

[kcd_swede]

Couldn't finish this one. The quest for Sampo was too much to handle for this finnjävel. However, I think there was absolutely nothing wrong with the map; I appreciated the scenario very much which is why I'm extra sorry for giving up.

My demise was trying and failing to chariot rush Isabella. I think the idea was right; she had no metal and bowmen do not get a bonus against mounted. However, I destroyed most of my military on a stupid suicide attack against Babylon. I should've kept pillaging and choking her while waiting for reinforcements but good ol' impatience got the better of me.

It's very well possible that the game would've been still winnable, but I didn't feel like continuing.

Are abandoned saves of any value to you? If they are, I will gladly submit.

Abandoned saves are not eligible for any awards of course, but we welcome them nonetheless. It can be useful when comparing results to see how your rush compared to others. Its also nice to know how many people are playing these games... the more submissions the more of an accomplishment winning an award can feel like. But its up to you.

 

[azzaman333]

Ridiculously slow spacerace win, only a couple of turns away from culture flipping enough tiles for a ridiculously domination victory. Settled in place after seeing more ice to the west, first techs were AH (to find horses), Mining (to mine hills) and either The Wheel (to build chariots) or Bronze Working (to find copper), can't remember which though.

Settled the horses with city #2, chariot rushed Izzy and took her capital, but got seriously bogged down trying to take Akkad (between the two capitals). Wasted a few too many chariots on that, before moving down south to take her 3rd city which was less well defended, and also to get some of her archers out of Akkad.

Probably would've gone and played a builder game from there, but after refusing SB's demand he went WHEOOHRN so I had to defend myself from that. Stole his coastal city but there were too many defenders in his hill cities, and had to sign peace. By this stage I was a long way behind Darius and Tokugawa (who I hadn't met at this point) in tech, so I whipped some infrastructure out.

SB attacked me again while I was building up an army to attack him, retaking the coastal city, but since I wasn't ready to fight I used the AP to force peace, waited until I had a few more trebs and the first couple of nights, and tore him to shreds.

I'd already tried to sneak a settler past the obscenely well defended barb city in the north, but learnt that they only seemed to ignore me if I had two military units stacked, since my 2 Bezerkers had snuck past earlier. I settled my first city over there 1NW of the Cow Fort, and left the fort thinking I needed it for trade routes. Of course, there was the river right there that would've given me the trade route, so I wasted the cow until I had flight...

As I slowly took control of the other continent, using a few cuirassiers to claim the barb city by the Sampo, I was intending to beeline Computers to try and catch up to Tokugawa and Darius. But by the time I actually learnt Computers, I was actually ahead of them, so I just kinda cruised along til I eventually triggered a win of some sort, making sure neither Toku nor Darius were about to have a culture win.

Was a surprisingly fun game, considering the need to rush a neighbour and one of those neighbours being a protective civ in the hills.