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Bowman or knight

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Strategy & Tips' started by [GR]Ishtari, Oct 15, 2002.

  1. [GR]Ishtari

    [GR]Ishtari Grim Reaper

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    when you get out of the stone age.. which way do you go. the easy road and get the bowman which inturn leads to gunpowder or the hard road the knight, which inturn leads you down the road to money.
    where do you go and why.:crazyeye:
     
  2. Yndy

    Yndy Emperor

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    There are several corrections I have to make to your question and some answers.

    I understand you mean to ask if you should go to invention through to chemistry or to theology to astronomy, banking, democracy and so on.

    Knights are not on any path they are a dead end that you don't even need to research to get to the next tech screen.

    You mean longbowmen not the babylonian bowmen.

    The answer is ...

    It depends...

    on whether you are warmonger or builder,
    on whether you have a specific target ( you may want to switch to democracy asap for example or want to get to military academy asap),
    on whether you have the Great Library,
    on what's your position in the tech race.

    I ussually go the top branch on builder games, when I'm behind in the tech tree, when I want to build wonders (more on the top branch)

    I go the bottom branch when warring heavily, when I have the tech lead (because the AI goes usually for the top branch and because I want cavalry asap) and when I have Great Library (I will get the tech to Education anyway).

    Hope that answers your question
     
  3. [GR]Ishtari

    [GR]Ishtari Grim Reaper

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    by taking the hard road don't you frist reseach feudalism becuase of the pikeman ..got to have pikeman then theology. and then Chivalry even though Chivalry is a dead end you need the power and speed to conqour your enemys. going over to the bottom sting now would make it even harder.. but anyone that is on this line would be goin for money. And are sorry, should of made it more clear for those not able to remeber which techs are where. back to the point where as if you do Feudalism and engineering it would lead you on the path to gunpowder.and on to more powerful weapons like canons and Cav, doing both would make it a hard game out right!. and yes longbowman, indeeded. havn't play Babylonian and will not as their is no female leader.:)
     
  4. Scyphax

    Scyphax Warlord

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    Sometimes even when playing a Warmongering Civ it is best to skip the Knights and go strait on to Cavalry.
    I normally only research Knights if I don't have a large number of horsemen or spearmen.
    Instead I go strait for Leonardos workshop to first upgrade my spearmen. From there it is not far to Cavalry
     
  5. Moonsinger

    Moonsinger Settler Retired Moderator

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    I always go for the path of horseman, knight and cavalry. Since all units upkeep are the same, I rather have fast units than some cheapy one that could not retrieve from battle. Fast units are very good for running away from battle too.:) When things get tough, it would be best for my units to run, hide, and live to fight for another day. IMO, it would be impossible to run anywhere with those slow bowmans.;)
     
  6. billindenver

    billindenver King

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    Most games I research the money road, theology, education, banking and trade for the bottom line techs, but that's just my preference. I sometimes skip down and research Military Tradition, if I have the other techs from trade.

    One thing to remember is that the bottom techs don't do you a bit of good if you have no iron. If you don't have iron, you are wasting your time getting Feudalism and Chivalry. You'd be better off researching the top line.
     
  7. Tassadar

    Tassadar Master

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    A stack of 12 knight will prevent a lot of trouble when you start building university and bank, so i love to reaserch them as fast as i can, they are my main force power over medieval era.

    So a few knight will counter attack any a.i. invasion if you are a republic or they can go on conquiere mission if you are warmonger.

    A stack of 12 knight with constant resuply of fresh units can easily crush any a.i. on your way.
     
  8. Beam

    Beam Beat 'm up Scotty! Retired Moderator

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    Specially AI Longbowmen. Even my Horsemen eat them for lunch, not to speak of any unit beyond that. It is a poor man's unit for those without Iron.

    There is another thread going on discussing Knights vs. Cavalry, also discussing development paths. I think Yndy outlines the most important considerations.
     
  9. Pembroke

    Pembroke Tribune

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    So, who says longbowmen should be the only units used?

    I would say that the knights vs. longbows doesn't have a definite answer. It depends on what you intend to do.

    A knight (4.3.2) costs 70 shields, a longbow (4.1.1) 40 shields, and a pike (1.3.1) 30 shields. Notice that Firaxis has actually been quite clever when assigning the shield costs. :) These production costs mean that it takes the same time to produce either a stack of 4 pikes + 4 longbows or a stack of 4 knights. As the best defender of a stack is used the 4 knights essentially go against four units with a defense value of 3 (the pikes). If the pike+bow stack attacks it is essentially an attack of four units (the bows)with an attack value of 4.

    In terms of attack and defense factors the pike+bow stack is equal to a knight stack.

    However, this doesn't mean it's the same whether you crank out knights or pike+bow stacks. Which is better varies with the situation as both have pros and cons:

    The knight stack is more mobile and the _upkeep_ cost is only for 4 units. OTOH 4 units only contain 4 units worth of hps, occupying power, and splitting.

    The pike+bow stack is slow and the upkeep cost is for 8 units. OTOH 8 units is sometimes better than 4 as per hps, occupation and dividing attacks.

    If I am going to attack and have the time to prepare for it then I probably would produce knights. But only as the initial strike force. If the war goes on longer than expected then pike+bow will they be with the occasional knight task force from cities far from the front.

    Or maybe not. It all depends. :)
     
  10. Beam

    Beam Beat 'm up Scotty! Retired Moderator

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    Some additional considerations: logistics and upgrade path.

    Knights have the added advantage of being at the front twice as fast and if shipping is required only half the gallies are required compared to the combo.

    And although pikemen have a nice upgrade path longbowmen have not. Knights upgrade to the very valuable Cavalry.
     
  11. Pembroke

    Pembroke Tribune

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    I forgot to add, that when you mix defenders and attackers you can get the fortify bonus and still attack. This works for all mixed formations, but in the above pike+bow you could fortify the 4 pikes getting a defense of 4.5 and still attack 4 times with the longbowmen. With just knights you forfeit the fortify option if you attack.
     
  12. [GR]Ishtari

    [GR]Ishtari Grim Reaper

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    Thats what i like to see. Pembroke. ideas. good work. what you point out is that their are different options even in how you use these troops.

    Just to put this up as a idea. does anyone use their Knights to go around cities and destroy roads so nations can't supply thier cities that are under attack with new troops.
     
  13. Hades

    Hades is a liar and a cheat

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    At this time, I am still hacking pikes and muskets with my swords. I love swordsmen so much yet I don't mind high casulty because they will be obsolute soon. I do build knights as the last resort reinforcement or to finish off the dying units. I build some longbows to tack along with my swords if I don't have enough swords to go around. I like using 1 movement units to launch attacks as it is a lot easier to manage the offensive and defensive units togather.

    As for the production calculation: I don't need 15 pikes to protect my 15 longbows, I don't need more than 5 pikes to protect my stack of 15 longbows/swords. Also, when a knight dies, that equivalent to a dead pike and a dead longbow, when a longbow dies, you still have a pike.

    The bottom line: The knights are too expensive to send to battles, I would rather stockpile and upgrade them as soon as I get cavalry.
     
  14. Tassadar

    Tassadar Master

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    Knight can retreat when they are red line so unsteed of loosing a units you keep it, send to a city for recovery, so knight worth the price, they are fast, they can protect themselve ( defense 3) and retreat when damage( most of the time).
     
  15. Sukenis

    Sukenis the J'BOOtian Warlord

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    O normally play on huge maps so I allways go for knights. The extra movement means they can make it tot he fight before the war is over. If I was on a smaller map (of the enemy os right next door) the pikes and longbows are an option for the initial strike, but after that the distance is just to great..
     
  16. WildFire

    WildFire amour

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    i love knights because they actually upgrade into a better unit! Even if i am not planning on going to war for a while, i still like knights because they can become cavalry so then you can start a cavalry war and end the game then.... although i sometimes wait for tanks and artillery
     
  17. Chieftess

    Chieftess Moderator Retired Moderator

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    In one game, I have tons of longbowmen on my large island. It's a huge map, 16 civs, and 3 of us (one's gone thanks to me. ;)) are on large islands. The Zulus declared war on me (they can't even reach me!!), so I just put lots of longbowmen on my coast. With 4 attack, they're pretty good. Of course, if I have a lot of horsemen (due to lack of iron), I may go the route of knights once I get iron.
     
  18. civ_steve

    civ_steve Deity Retired Moderator GOTM Staff

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    I used to see no reason for Knights. Now I'm playing in two games (GOTM11 and SD1) where I've relied on them exclusively for early victories.

    Part of the reason is to complete the game rapidly; my schedule allows little game time, and this way I can participate in these tournaments. Second reason, is that in these two games I could get to Knight quickly enough that the AI was still using primarily spearmen as defenders. This just contributes to the blitz mentality. Also, as Japan and China, the Knight is a UU, which makes even more sense to rely on them. So ... build a stack of horsemen, save a treasury of 1600 or so, learn Chivalry, upgrade, start conquering and generate a Golden Age at the same time.

    Longbowmen: I don't like them in general. Under the right conditions I'd consider building them.
     
  19. The Last Conformist

    The Last Conformist Irresistibly Attractive

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    I usually go first for Chivalry in the Medieval Age, and then take the lower road, trading for the techs on the high one.

    As I too favour huge maps, it should come as little surprise that I see the better movement of Knights as a huge advantage over Longbowmen and Pikemen. Bow and pike are, IMHO, primarily defensive troops; only Knights has the mobility to be efficient offensive units in this period of the game. The Longbowman's niche is too stand in your cities, or in other fortified places, and attack stacks of invading troops. Stacks, 'cos if you attack a single unit, your Longbowman will move out of the defended position, most probably dying during the AI turn, so this should normally be avoided.

    Really, the only one-move troops I use for offense are Swordsman/Immortal/Legionary, 'cos in Ancient times the enemy is usually close at hand and the Swordsman has the highest attack value of all ancient units for all but the Iroquois, and Infantry, as artillery guards. My reliance of Inf+Arty formations gradually decline with the coming of Tanks, Bombers and MA, but they find a place as siege troops till the end of the game. The Inf may be changed for MI tho', and the Arty for Radar Artillery should I ever get to research that tech.
     
  20. gugalpm

    gugalpm Veteran of psychic wars

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    Please... do you guys discuss between longbowman and knights...
    knights have 2 moves and are 4.3;
    longbowman move 1 and is 4.1, very vulnerable...
    For me, there's no discussion... Knights.
     

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