Originally posted by Pembroke
There is now a level above Deity. It's called "human opponent".
IMO, I think this level is easier than the Deity level. Unlike the Deity level, each human player would produce and research at the same rate.
Bowman or knight
- Thread starter [GR]Ishtari
- Start date
IMO, I think this level is easier than the Deity level. Unlike the Deity level, each human player would produce and research at the same rate.
wargasm23
Warlord
yeah when i defeated the aztecs and indians i went. Straight for Wheel, quickly got horsemen, Bronze Working, then Iron working then got legionaries. Then increased research to hurry and get to next age of time and researched feudalism to get pikemen and then chivalry to get knights.
knights own period. 5-6 knights, a few backup horsemen and a few pikemen for defnse can take any veteran or elite defenders the cpu might have guarding their capitol. It also helps to have 1-3 backup galleys on the way with backup units. Also building roads to enemy will cut your mobilization time in 1 /2
I would love hear more about wonder rushing and the significance it makes in battle. Please tell me more
knights own period. 5-6 knights, a few backup horsemen and a few pikemen for defnse can take any veteran or elite defenders the cpu might have guarding their capitol. It also helps to have 1-3 backup galleys on the way with backup units. Also building roads to enemy will cut your mobilization time in 1 /2
I would love hear more about wonder rushing and the significance it makes in battle. Please tell me more
[GR]Ishtari
Grim Reaper
Wonder rushin. well you gotta get the Sun Tzu's. it gives you a Barracks in every citie on the same land mass. which helps with cash. cash you say.. yep.. you don't hav to pay for ya barrecks now.and them you can build any unit you like at Vet level. helps at the front lines and quickens your ability to defend by being able to build more units. more knights. It is a good thing when ya need to take out a small Civ next to you.
In my current game (Huge map, Deity level, 14 civs), I was at the bottom of the list. I managed to produce a few dozen warriors right around 1000 BC. Of course, the English, Persian, and German decided to join force against me. I'm playing China and my civ is the weekest one on the planet; therefore, it's logical for them to bully me around). Anyway, I immediately paid 280 golds for Iron Working from the French and upgraded all my warriors to Swordmans. With swordmans, I was able to defend all my borders without any problem while trying to build some horsemans.
My swordmans were just fortifying along my border and hoping to survive for another turn; out of the blue, a leader show up.
It was a big decision: to build an army so that I can build the Hero Epic or to rush a Great Wonder? I noticed that the AIs almost finish the Sun Tzu's and the Great Library which mean that I'm way behide in techs. Of course, all other Wonders such as Pyramid, Light House, Oracle, Garden... already built by the AIs.I decided to trade with the French again for Alphabet, Writings then Literature. I immediately rushed the Great Library and by the next turn, I got all the ancient tech tree and a few Middle Age techs including Chivary.
I just upgraded all my 14 horsemans to Raiders. Since the AIs just discover Chivary, they don't have any knight yet. My raiders are winning almost every battle at the front line and the war is now in my favor. I'm adding their towns to my empire in almost every turn. Now, they are all begging to sign a peace treaty with me but (of course) my answer is "no". My civs is also entering the Golden Age and it's now 10BC. I'm expecting to become the superpower within 50 more turns.In summary, by building just one Great Wonder at the right time would make the big different between life and death of a civilization.
[GR]Ishtari
Grim Reaper
That was lucky... getting that Leader. if ya didn't you would of been screwed. not been able to get ahead of them would made you weak.. so weak that they would of crush you as soon as they got Knights. Great library is a good one when ya behind.. and the Sun tzu is a good one when ya ahead.
music_theory7
Warlord
I have to disagree with kinghts. First in multiplayer you don't have the time or the money to build 6 or 7 kinghts when you arn't a superpower at 70 compared to longbowmen and pike for 80 it's too much for too little. Actually it really depends on your stragety cause once your longbow+pike army conquer a city you can defend it with the pikes.Second even if the knights attacking your pikes win they would be seriously damaged so finish them off next turn with your bows. Thirdly unlike knight armies you can put catapuths with them. So overall the pike=catapath=longbow is a much more balanced army.
----------------oops-----wrong post----sorry I was refering to the knights vs pike+longbow topic sorry------------------
----------------oops-----wrong post----sorry I was refering to the knights vs pike+longbow topic sorry------------------
The Last Conformist
Irresistibly Attractive
Because relying only on mobile units may be prohibitively expensive.
The best example, of course, is the period between Replaceable Parts and Motorized Transportation. Unless your shields per turn total is completely out of the roof, simply crashing thru an AI's defenses with Cav will lead to unsustainable losses, forcing you to take pauses in your offensives. If you bring along Arty (and Inf to escort them) to pound the AI cities to dust before attacking them, losses will be much lower, and you can wage a continuous offensive again.
As regards Knights vs Longbowmen/Medievals, I find that the footsloggers can be very worthwhile in the right circumstances - in particular when attacking across big areas of difficult terrain. I'm also on of the apparently few players that like to bring along Catapults on early Medieval campaigns of conquest.
My path, is fairly consistent, though this is assuming I have the Great Library (which I tend to have). First, I make a beeline to Theology to get the Sisten Chapel (and cathedrals). That way, I can turn off the luxury slider and go full blast in science. Afterwards, I grab feudalism (start building Sun Tzu) and make my way to about Gun Powder (getting Leo's Workshop started on the way). By then, I should have recieved Education (through GL) at which point I will go for the wonders and the techs they require: Music Theory, Economics, Astronomy, Theory of Gravity. During that time, I would pick up Banking and acquire PP through GL. Then I'd grab Democray, and rap things up with Military Tradition and Magnetism. This path tends to get me most of the wonders I want before the AI and will get me Democracy just in time for the Industrial revolution. I don't wage too many wars until Tanks, so Cavalry are never a priority for me.
Nad
Known Troublemaker
Whether you build knoghts or longbows, or any other unit, of course, depends on the circumstances.
If you are in a situation where you wish to launch a war, and you can do so in your own time at your own convenience, then it is likely you will go for the best units you can, and knights are the granddaddys of the early middle ages; great attack, great defence, mobile. Build a stack and watch your enemies crumble.
In other situations, you may find your opponents aclling the shots and attacking you out of the blue. Perhaps then, you simply can't wait for 70 shields to accumulate, and you build longbows at 40 shields each instead, because you need some quick response.
In PTW with the addition of medieval infantry, you might as well go for those at 40 shields if you have iron, because they are also defence 2.
By far the greatest feature of longbowmen is that they are an attack 4 unit that require no resources. In an emperor level solo game I'm currently playing, I learned to appreciate their value. The game settings were totally random, but on a standard sized map. I drew the Germans, and the map turned out to be a 60% pangaea. I got a decent landgrab, on the northern edge of the pangaea, but was still weak. And I had no iron or saltpeter, and no hope of trading for it
The civs next to me were Babylon and China, who both had all the required resources. To have a good chance of winning the game I had to attack at some point, and eventualy I've managed to knock both of them out, learning a great deal about longbows and combined arms in the process. When I fought Babylon, they were using swords, bowmen, spears, pikes and medieval infantry (this was before chivalry) - at that point, i was fighting with archers, spears and horsemen. The main war against China, they had Riders (and a GA
), muskets, medieval infantry anmd cavalry (!), I had spears, horses and longbows, yet I whipped them, by using longbows covered by spears and advancing on high ground, and large stacks of horses to take cities down by force of numbers. I was amazed at how well longbows did against muskets in size 12 cities, and even how good horses were against cavalry (because the cavalry couldn't retreat, so using a longbow to injure the cavalry and get him to retreat, and then use a horse to finish off).
Conclusion: all units are useful in the right circumstances, and a good general uses whatever he can get his hands on!
If you are in a situation where you wish to launch a war, and you can do so in your own time at your own convenience, then it is likely you will go for the best units you can, and knights are the granddaddys of the early middle ages; great attack, great defence, mobile. Build a stack and watch your enemies crumble.
In other situations, you may find your opponents aclling the shots and attacking you out of the blue. Perhaps then, you simply can't wait for 70 shields to accumulate, and you build longbows at 40 shields each instead, because you need some quick response.
In PTW with the addition of medieval infantry, you might as well go for those at 40 shields if you have iron, because they are also defence 2.
By far the greatest feature of longbowmen is that they are an attack 4 unit that require no resources. In an emperor level solo game I'm currently playing, I learned to appreciate their value. The game settings were totally random, but on a standard sized map. I drew the Germans, and the map turned out to be a 60% pangaea. I got a decent landgrab, on the northern edge of the pangaea, but was still weak. And I had no iron or saltpeter, and no hope of trading for it
The civs next to me were Babylon and China, who both had all the required resources. To have a good chance of winning the game I had to attack at some point, and eventualy I've managed to knock both of them out, learning a great deal about longbows and combined arms in the process. When I fought Babylon, they were using swords, bowmen, spears, pikes and medieval infantry (this was before chivalry) - at that point, i was fighting with archers, spears and horsemen. The main war against China, they had Riders (and a GA ), muskets, medieval infantry anmd cavalry (!), I had spears, horses and longbows, yet I whipped them, by using longbows covered by spears and advancing on high ground, and large stacks of horses to take cities down by force of numbers. I was amazed at how well longbows did against muskets in size 12 cities, and even how good horses were against cavalry (because the cavalry couldn't retreat, so using a longbow to injure the cavalry and get him to retreat, and then use a horse to finish off).Conclusion: all units are useful in the right circumstances, and a good general uses whatever he can get his hands on!
troytheface
Deity
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2002
- Messages
- 3,262
i have played a few more games and am now winning at the emperor level. My conclusion? Knights are only superior at lower levels of play. Longbowmen gain strength the higher levels u
reach. Skip chivarly, get it later when its cheap to buy or demand it from a conquered civ. What I found -using Greece- is that
Chivarly is an unneccessay. If u are fighting any civ that has a medevil uu-and there are lots-one should -at all costs- Avoid War during that time. If u like warring during Medevil..play Japan-that UU is better than a knight anyway. Same with China or the Mongols. The question begs criteria-what level, what civ, what size map.
reach. Skip chivarly, get it later when its cheap to buy or demand it from a conquered civ. What I found -using Greece- is that
Chivarly is an unneccessay. If u are fighting any civ that has a medevil uu-and there are lots-one should -at all costs- Avoid War during that time. If u like warring during Medevil..play Japan-that UU is better than a knight anyway. Same with China or the Mongols. The question begs criteria-what level, what civ, what size map.
dreamdeferred
Civ Playa
Do pikes have a special advantage vs. knights? If they do (i don't think this is so, from what i've heard), then the advantage of longbows in attacking pikes is obvious. Also, if you bring some bows along to attack a heavily entrenched position, it gives you a low-cost attacker to throw against the defenders, whether they win or lose, they do damage. If they do lose, they're cheaper to replace than knights.
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