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boxed in

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by dylanmeditates, Oct 9, 2015.

  1. dylanmeditates

    dylanmeditates Warlord

    Joined:
    May 14, 2012
    Messages:
    260
    hey,
    playing pangaea normal settings on immortal.
    what do you do when there is space for only say 3 or 4 cities, no elephants, no horses, no good commerce tiles.
    I tried bulbing math to get to construction just that much faster to rush my neighbor- it kind of worked, i was able to get up to like 1.2x power on pacal to the south and f****d him up with lots of cats, axes spears and swords, but then BOTH my other neighbors DOWed on me, and they had hella war elephants.
    What are you even supposed to do in that original situation tho? r some games just un-winnable?
    Next time i'm in that situation i'm going to have to try the same thing... I don't know how else to go... maybe try engineering rush for more success?
     
  2. Izuul

    Izuul Level 86

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2012
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    6,819
    Sounds like my kind of Immortal game. Do you have the starting save?

    FWIW pretty much every Immortal game is winnable in the sense of not being impossible. Some deity games can be virtually impossible though.
     
  3. blunderwonder

    blunderwonder Prince

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2012
    Messages:
    312
    It does sound like the diplo situation is what caused you to lose though. gifting a city gets u +4 for trade, or just gifting techs, keeping open boarders with people who arnt hated and sharing religion or civics can often keep you out of that type of a problem.


    When you get boxed in, assuming you cant pull off culture or some sort of crazy religious win(which i still really dont understand how to do reliably), the only other option is to find a way to take cities, and thats just what you did so you cant really beat yourself up about it. Sometimes its pretty cleary you'll be boxed in though depending on how close other start positions are, and you can figure this out by scouting, maybe get an extra city or two by blocking off chunks of land from the ai.
     
  4. ikotomi

    ikotomi Prince

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2015
    Messages:
    320
    Try to bribe neighbors into war when you declare, so AI doesn't bribe them against you the next turn. If possible, bribe AI into war before you declare, as then they will be bribed against rather than you. Going alphabet and trading for maths can often make quite a big difference, as AI techs maths quickly on immortal.

    As long as you get your immediate neighbors taken care of, you're usually fine, as they never get their stack that far before they're willing to give you gold for peace (assuming you have a bigger army).

    In general, I don't feel you really need to feel to worried about getting boxed in, especially on Pangea. As long as you keep up in tech through good trading (diplomacy helps because you can get monopoly techs at friendly), even if you can't do an early rush you can still be quite successful with a cuirassier/rifling breakout with a small amount of cities.
     
  5. MegaLurker

    MegaLurker King

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2014
    Messages:
    718
    You have to consider the diplo and tech situation very carefully before you decide who to attack, even this early.

    Who were your potential targets? Being a pangea map it's almost certain there was more than 1 logistically realistic target. Pacal is often a good choice because he spends a lot of hammers on wonders that other leaders would be putting into units. But he also tends to be a tech leader, which makes him more of a threat to bribe other AIs onto his side.

    Before you declare you'll want to look at the relations table, remembering to apply any "you declared war on our friend!" and shared war modifiers that will come into effect once you declare. Cross-referencing this information with AI leaderhead xml info lets you know who would be able to bribe who into war. You again cross-reference this to the tech trade screen to see who has the trading pieces to bribe if that option is available to them. Keep in mind that bribing someone into a war that's already happening is significantly cheaper than bribing to declare a new war.

    This all seems like a chore, but there are several exploits that allow you to use this info to keep yourself safe. The classic is begging civs with which you are pleased for a very small amount of gold, or a low-value tech/resource if currency hasn't unlocked trades for gold. Doesn't always work but a successful beg gives you an automatic 10-turn peace treaty. So does accepting a demand from an AI, that can be very important in the lead-up to a war. If you know a civ could be bribed in on you, having them at pleased can save you. Getting them to pleased can be easier than you think. Civic/religion swap can do it, declaring a phony war for them can do it, and if all else fails you can gift them a city for an automatic +4 diplo bonus. The city has to be within a certain radius of their capital, I believe, unless it is very early in the game (I feel like it's before turn 50? But I'm not confident I remember that right).

    It's also possible that in your game the AIs were not bribed, or at least not both of them. AIs are capable of backstabbing you on their own depending on your relations, power ratio, and that particular leader's programmed behaviour. AIs will "dogpile" you as well, which I seem to recall is because they look at the power rating of the AIs already at war with you when making the power ratio calculations? Again, I might be mis-remembering.

    In any case like Izuul says you can almost always salvage a game on Immortal. You said you successfully took a bunch of cities before you got dogpiled and the new enemies have war elephants. There are a few strategies you could use to survive this:

    -Spearmen defending cities against war elephants will get you a very favourable hammer exchange. They will lose more elephants than you will lose spearmen, at almost double the cost. Whipping walls in the city they target and whipping/funneling spearmen to that city should work.

    -Cats as city defenders. Unless I'm mistaken they'll shield your stack from collateral damage when they are the active defender. Also very effective to suicide a cat or two or three into a stack just before they attack your city. This is easy to time because once the AI has cats in a stack they'll (almost?) always bombard your defenses to 0% before attacking.

    -Trap city. This works well if you have CRII+ promoted cats. Let an AI capture a city from you that was not previously theirs. It will start at 0% cultural defense, they'll have no fortification bonus. You will actually get better odds attacking their stack in this city with CR promoted units (particularly cats) than you will attacking them in the open.

    Losing a bunch of units in your territory will usually see the AI offer peace before long.
     
  6. dylanmeditates

    dylanmeditates Warlord

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    So it's generally understood that every Imm game is winnable? At least on Pangaea normal etc...
     
  7. Anysense

    Anysense King

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    From my experience about 90% of immortal games are winnable. I have a very nice screenshot of a start which seem to be not winnable. At least I have no idea how to win this game.
    Spoiler :
     
  8. BigBizkit

    BigBizkit Chieftain

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    Jackpot.
     
  9. oranje willem

    oranje willem Prince

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    That doesn't look like a normal mapscript to me, Ragnar can't even settle? Having said that, I still think it's winnable (unless the rest of the map is also full of unusual things). It looks like a map with a lot of small islands, just get the GLH and you're good. Shaka might declare on you, but with protective archers on a hill city that's not a problem, you can settle on other islands.
     
  10. timmy827

    timmy827 King

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    You don't have a save anysense? I'm honestly curious where Ragnar's guys get warped to when your borders pop.
     
  11. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    To NW-W I guess, which is also a legal spot to settle. I agree with oranje, I think this game is winnable as you have them islands. What I don't understand is why Shaka starts with two workers.

    Yes, I'd say 100% of pangaea imm is winnable.
     
  12. Anysense

    Anysense King

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    It is a standard, pangaea, low sea level map. It does not look hopeless but I can't seem to handle this map.

    @sampsa
    If memory serves, in warlords from emperor onwards every AI starts with 2 workers.

    Here is the save if someone wants to try it out.
     

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  13. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    Ah, it's been a while since I played warlords.
     

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