Boy Scouts

Have you been in Boy Scouts?

  • No. And it is a bad organization.

    Votes: 18 31.0%
  • No. But I wish I could have been.

    Votes: 6 10.3%
  • No. But it's a good idea.

    Votes: 6 10.3%
  • Yes. I made it to Tenderfoot.

    Votes: 3 5.2%
  • Yes. I made it to Second Class.

    Votes: 6 10.3%
  • Yes. I made it to First Class

    Votes: 1 1.7%
  • Yes. I made it to Star.

    Votes: 1 1.7%
  • Yes. I made it to Life.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Yes. And I made it all the way to Eagle! [party]

    Votes: 7 12.1%
  • No. I'm female!

    Votes: 2 3.4%
  • Other, Giant Radioactive Monkey, I like pie!

    Votes: 8 13.8%

  • Total voters
    58

Irish Caesar

Yellow Jacket
Joined
Feb 8, 2002
Messages
10,278
Location
Atlanta, former CSA
I think I saw some MSNBC the other day, and they were talking to that kid who was kicked out for being gay. He himself said that he was not given the boot for being gay (they had known for a few years), but for professing that he was a gay Boy Scout, essentially rubbing it in the organization's face.

I just wanted to add that I am an Eagle and have gone to Philmont, and I would further add that it was one of the greatest experiences of my life. Anyone claiming that Scouts is based on discrimination is way off; it's a place where a bunch of guys can go out in the woods and prove that modern technology and conveniences aren't necessary for having a good time.
 

YNCS

Ex-bubblehead
Joined
Feb 16, 2003
Messages
3,098
Location
-4 GMT
I was in one troop in California. It was a good troop, with strong adult involvement and supervision, and in 3 years I made it to Star. My family then moved to Missouri. The only local troop was run as the personal fiefdom of one man who was a homosexual predator, something which (fortunately) I didn't find out about until years later. After a year, I dropped out of scouting.

What troop a boy finds himself in makes a great deal of difference. If I had stayed in California for another year or two I would have made Eagle. If I had started scouting in Missouri I would have left as a Second Class and probably a lot of hostility towards the program.
 

meldor

Deity
Joined
Feb 8, 2002
Messages
3,666
Location
Tualatin, Or
Originally posted by mes17
Only a small part of the tenets of scouting deal with religion. Perhaps you should exclude those who aren't sufficiently friendly or sufficiently cheerful. There's many aspects of scouting which might attract a non-believer. Reverant is only one part of the law.
Lets try this:
Mission Statement
The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law.

Scout Oath
On my honor I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country
and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong,
mentally awake, and morally straight.

Scout Law
A Scout is:
Trustworthy
Loyal
Helpful
Friendly
Courteous
Kind Obedient
Cheerful
Thrifty
Brave
Clean
Reverent
Notice that the first part of the oath deals with duty to God. An atheist can not show duty to God. By definition they don't believe. One of the requirements for advancement to any of the ranks is to live by the Scout Oath and Law. Again, how do you show duty to God as an Atheist. You can do so as a muslim, hindu, are even if you worship the radioactive monkey god, but not as an atheist.

Originally posted by mes17
In some instances a boy left alone with a girl may try to get into her pants. If they find them attractive and if you have failed in your teaching of "strong moral values". It's no different for a homosexual boy. If he learned "strong moral values" he won't be hitting on other boys because he knows that kind of conduct at scout functions is inappropriate. You don't seem to have much faith in the boys to say no to an unwanted advance. As I posted before, I think there's little chance a boy would make such an advance due to the reaction of the heterosexual members of the troop. With a boy and girl no such check exists.
You are assuming that the person to whom the advances were made would come forward and tell about it. The fact is that most children that age would hide the fact. They will already be thinking about what signals they sent to make this person think it was OK to make a homosexual advance, they will be doublely afraid that they as well as the "gay" scout will be singled out for your reaction. Sorry, that agruement doesn't hold water. Victims of rape and child molestation don't come forward for the same reasons. Simply telling them that such behavior is not appropriate isn't always a strong enough. As for teaching them strong "moral" values, these are arlready people who are engaging in immoral behavior. But more on that below. The plain fact is that the majority of parents of the Scouts don't approve of homosexuality. Otherwise, the orginization would have changed the policy long ago, just as the Girl Scouts did.

Originally posted by mes17
In addition, if your so afraid of a 17 year old boy who professes to be gay(and that's the only way that your ban is effective) then don't put him in a tent with the 12 year old.
The Boy Scouts don't have boys of vastly diferent ages sleep in the same tent anyway. The maturity level and discussion levels differ, its a fact. It is better to keep the ages close to the same. However, that doesn't preclude a scout from being alone with any other scout in any number of different ways.

Originally posted by mes17
The scouts are supposed to be inclusive. The cover of the Boy Scout magazine, Boys Life, states it's "For All Boys".
Maybe they should change it to "For All Boys(except fags and heretics)".
The scout are supposed to be for everyone who wants to be one regardless of race, religion, nationality or economic background. Sexual orientation is no different.
Again, the boy scouts is a private originization, it is entitled to admit or deny membership for any reason that it sees fit. Any who do not like the exceptions made are welcome to start their own organization and do as they please. Now, a lot of the troops are given greater leeway in who they allow and who they don't. They do so at the peril of the core people who would have otherwise supported and helped the troop. Most troops are sponsered through a church or other religous organization. That is fact. It is religous even if you wish to deny it.

Originally posted by mes17
The Royal Rangers were begun as a church organization the Boy Scouts were not. They have no affiliation with any church and don't profess any faith. You're trying to turn the Boy Scouts into an arm of your religion.
I am well awaqre of the founding and the traditions of the Scouts. The Royal Rangers were started because the Scout's became so inclusive as to admit muslims, hindus and other non-Christian groups. I am not trying to turn the Scout's into anything. The troop that I am a Asst. Scoutmaster for has all manner of Christians and even a muslim. All of the meeting are started with an invocation and end with a devotion. As a matter of fact, that is the way they are supposed to go according to the material supplied by the BSA. What you are trying to do is to take the Scouts and make it into just another free-for-all with no moral guidance as we don't want to offend the atheists.

Originally posted by mes17
Wrong. The scouts are a public secular organization that profess no faith. I was in a troop with christians, jews, hindus and buddhists. You really have no basis for stating that most scouts believe that homesexuality is a sin. Most people in the U.S. do not believe that homosexuality is a sin. Assuming that scouting is a relative crosssection of the U.S. population then most scouts do not either. You also can't assume that because people check the "Christian" box when asked about relition that they agree with all facets of the religion. Without real evidence of scouts opinions your statment is baseless.
First, yes the Scouts are secular in that they are not associated with any given religous denomination, although they can be. There are big branches for scouts who wish to be in troops with just catholics or muslims, among others. What you can not deny is that being religous is a part of the Scouts. Period. That is were you are supposed to get the moral compass to meet the parts of the Law. As for the rest, most Scouts are Christian. Because the scouts make a point of practicing your religion, must scouts are more religous than non-scouts. If they are Christian then they have to believe that homosexuality is a sin or they are Christain in name only. The bible clearly states that sex between two men is a sin. So follow the logic, Most Scouts are Christains, Christains are taught that homosexuality is a sin, therefore most scouts and there parents belive homosexuality is a sin. I can tell you that every time another lawsuit is filed, this gets discused in a lot of the scouting circles. I have yet to hear anyone, and I mean anyone in the scouts say they think it is ok to admit homosexuals.

Originally posted by mes17
Now why don't you and your boys join or start a church group which excludes those heathen jews and muslims instead of being in one that professes inclusivity of religion. Would you quit the scouts if they decided to allow athiests?
And what is to stop you from sueing that group as well if they don't let in atheists and gays. The Scouts already excludes them, that is the oranization I am in. Why don't you and your start one that allows gays and atheist? The answer is that it has been tried many times and failed. Parents just don't want to send their children off to camp with them. I am sorry you don't like it, but it is a fact. This doesn't mean that they want any harm to befall those people, it just means that they don't want those people to have influence over their childs life in an un supervised setting.
As for the question of leaving the scouts if they allowed atheist, the short answer is yes. It then wouldn't be the organization that it has always been. I don't just want my child learning from every strip of moral character. I chose those I want to influence him and that is in the end my choice to make and not yours,even as much as you would like it to be.

Originally posted by mes17
The issues of homosexuality and athiesm were never an issue until the extremists decided to shout loudest in the organization. Just another example of narrow-minded people trying to force their unpopular views on others to the detriment of those the organization is supposed to be helping.
The issues of homosexuality were never an issue until radicals tried to force the Boy Scouts into accepting people of all strips. When they started trying to force the Scouts to allow members the Scouts, as a private organization didn't want in there group. This is just another example of people who feel they know better than others how they should live trying to force their ideals deeown other peoples throats. Not everone wants their children growing up exposed to those influences. If it was such a bad thing for the organization, why is it still around? Why are so many gays and atheists trying to force their way in? Why does every lawyer that wants to make a name for themselves think they can force the Scouts to change?
 

Incarnatur Est

Chieftain
Joined
Jun 9, 2003
Messages
37
I don't understand this hostility toward the scouts. They are a private organization and are entitled to choose whoever they want to include - or not! - among their ranks. People who don't like their policies are welcome to start their own competing organizations.

But I guess the scouts are soon going to be another victim on the altar of the new über-religion of those who profess to none: political correctness.
 

andrewgprv

Second Class Citizen
Joined
May 28, 2002
Messages
3,539
Location
Idaho Falls, USA
Originally posted by Incarnatur Est
I don't understand this hostility toward the scouts. They are a private organization and are entitled to choose whoever they want to include - or not! - among their ranks. People who don't like their policies are welcome to start their own competing organizations.

The KKK is a private orginazation as well, that doesn't mean that they won't be viewed with hostility.

I agree that scouts should have the right to exclude whom they wish but this doesn't mean I don't think it is wrong.

It sends a message to atheists or gay boys that they are not wanted, welcome or seen as equals.
 

meldor

Deity
Joined
Feb 8, 2002
Messages
3,666
Location
Tualatin, Or
Ah yes, I was wondering how long it would take. The KKK prfess it want ot eliminate entire races and remove them from the US. The scout's simply want to associate with those people they chose. Yep, I can see the simularities.

The big problem is that homosexuals will not rest until they force every one to acccept their behavior as normal, when it clearly isn't. They can force their way into the govenment sponsered groups, it is just the private clubs that they can not force their way in. Therefore they have to try every little trick they can to force the issue. Things such as trying to get schools to refuse the scouts use of their facilities and other things such as that. They get really mad when someone tells them no. The Scouts have done so and they are out for blood.

Most of us don't wish anything bad for them, we dont' even want them shut out of jobs or to have benefits denied them. However, even this isn't enough.
 

CurtSibling

ENEMY ACE™
Supporter
Joined
Aug 31, 2001
Messages
29,290
Location
Innsmouth
Originally posted by conmcb25
I take exception to that. There are thousands of Troops in the USA that dont have "twisted people" running it.

Can you account for every single one?
Let's have your list. :)

Originally posted by conmcb25
I happen to be the adult leader of one that produces more Eagle Scouts than any other troop in our Council.

I happen to be an illustrator.
I produce more work than my fellow artists.

And your point is? :D

Originally posted by conmcb25
We go camping, work on advancements, do community service projects and try to teach our kids a little bit about giving back to the community, leadership and self reliance.

What is outdated about that?

I didn't say jolly good outdoor fun was dated.
The idea of making youth serve 'god and country' with all the applied indoctrination is.

Well, in my country at least. ;)

Originally posted by conmcb25
A little more of those kind of values around the world would sure make it a better place to live in, IMHO.

Ceasing our messing with young minds would help make the world a better place, IMHO.
And all the forced brain-washing of religon worldwide.

But that's just my dream.

No offence intended, but these are my views.
 

CurtSibling

ENEMY ACE™
Supporter
Joined
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Messages
29,290
Location
Innsmouth
Originally posted by conmcb25
Thousands of hours of Public service and many leaders in politics and business.

The post your are quoting is not entirely serious, BTW.
I am aware that scouts systems aim for a laudable goal.
Sadly, it doesn't always produce a constant stream of fine christian individuals, does it?

Humans are not machines.

Originally posted by conmcb25
And just like any oither organization it has had problems. That is a minority that is of course hyped by the media. Stereo typing based on a minority of the organization is an unfair generalization IMHO.

True, there has been unfair things said in the past.

But every rumour has a kernel of truth, non?

What do you make of this?

Shocking news about scout leader! - May offend some people!
 

Incarnatur Est

Chieftain
Joined
Jun 9, 2003
Messages
37
Originally posted by meldor
Ah yes, I was wondering how long it would take. The KKK prfess it want ot eliminate entire races and remove them from the US. The scout's simply want to associate with those people they chose. Yep, I can see the simularities.

Ah, but the similarity - discriminating on criteria deemed sensitive by the self-appoined elite - outweight any such trifles. Any kind of discrimination is bad.

Or rather, any kind of incorrect discrimination is bad. Correct discrimination is not only endorsed by law in the form of affirmative action, it's also entirely acceptable to all those who itch to throw about KKK references.

Somehow I doubt that NOW! or NAACP will get the KKK analogy treatment anytime soon, despite their clearly discriminating membership rules and the fact that they get regular handouts from taxpayer money.
 

Noldodan

2 years of waiting...
Joined
Jun 17, 2002
Messages
1,747
Location
Gondolin!
I'm going to offer a few scattered thoughts here. I have been involved in Scouting since I was 5 years old, when I joined Cub Scouts, and have loved it for the 10 years since. I'm going to attempt to dispense with a few notions here that I find odd. Here goes...

If you think that Scouting takes a lot of money, join a different Troop. In my Troop it's $3 per month, $10 for each campout, and the summer week-longers are only the $25-35 lock-in fees. All food, water and shelter is provided. And we don't even live in a rich area. Just a lot of fundraisers.

Second, this whole gay thing. I have never even heard of something like this happening in our two-county Council in Central Pennsylvania.

Thirdly, religion. Again, it depends on your Troop. There are some who are more strict, and some who are less. Just find one that's right for you.

EDIT: Forgot this. In my Troop, for some reason, we hada year where all of the new scouts but ONE have either ADD or ADHD. It is utter HECK being around them.
 

Aravorn

Deity
Joined
May 14, 2002
Messages
2,720
Location
Mos Eisley
Originally posted by CurtSibling


The post your are quoting is not entirely serious, BTW.
I am aware that scouts systems aim for a laudable goal.
Sadly, it doesn't always produce a constant stream of fine christian individuals, does it?

Humans are not machines.

Curt I agree 100%, if I gave the impression that all scouts were superhuman that was my fault.

And your right it doesn't. In my troop which is a pretty good one we have a couple of ":problem" kids. Nothing serious but when you go on an outing with them you have to watch them like a hawk. And everytime they do something mischevious we try and have a scout like discussion with them. Maybe someday it will sink in who knows.

My only point was that there are litterally thousands of Community leaders in business and governemnt who have publically said that there experience in scouting helped them to get where they are today.

I did not mean to imply that everyone who is a Boy Scout is a stand up citizen. That would be ludicrous. Scouts is a cross section of society and you are going to have some "bad eggs" no matter what you do!

But if only 10% of the boys chose the "right" path in life to becoming a good productive citizen instead of something else then I still say scouts has a positive effect.

Even if the kids learn a little bit about leadership and giving back to the community its a good thing isn't it?

And again I will admit right now it doesn't have that affect on everyone, but we as leaders try to make sure it happens. And if I affect one or two young lives poistively during my years as a leader I still say thats a success. (Especially if Its my two boys who are in scouts right now!)

Ill check out the article. Unfortunately Scouts is a cross section of society and you are going to get some bad apples.
 

Aravorn

Deity
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Mos Eisley
Originally posted by Noldodan
EDIT: Forgot this. In my Troop, for some reason, we hada year where all of the new scouts but ONE have either ADD or ADHD. It is utter HECK being around them.

This is your test my son, Maybe this adversity will help you learn patience. But I will say a group of kids with ADD or ADHD can be very trying. Hopefully Scouting will be the outlet these kids need, at least for some of them I hope!
 

Finvola

Where's my pie?
Joined
Aug 7, 2002
Messages
677
Location
Canary Islands
I'm a girl, but my brother was a boy scout for a couple of years. I tried girl scouts but I really hated it. I think I may have lasted 2 months :)
 

Aravorn

Deity
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Messages
2,720
Location
Mos Eisley
Originally posted by CurtSibling

True, there has been unfair things said in the past.

But every rumour has a kernel of truth, non?

What do you make of this?

Shocking news about scout leader! - May offend some people!

Well policy against homosexual individuals aside, this guy is a felon. And if he was honest in his background check, he would probably not be admited as a leader because of that.

That of course isn't discussed much in the article, it highlights his protest of the anti homosexual policy.

What does that say about the media?

Now Curt I dont know if you are married or not. But lets just say you support scouts and this guy wants to be your childrens Scoutmaster? What would you think? A felony rap for child molestation would decide it for me. I dont really care if this guy is trying to give back to the community or not. Im not taking a chance with my kids based on his felony conviction. If he wants to give back to the community go work at a food pantry or something but not around boys. And especially not around my two boys. And i would be willing to bet most parents of scouts would agree with me whether they were homosexual or not.
 

puglover

Disturber of Worldviews
Joined
Nov 26, 2002
Messages
9,643
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Kansas
Why would an atheist even care if he said to do his duty to God? If he thinks there is none, saying to be reverant doesn't hurt anything. Maybe if there WAS a God then he would be reverent or do his duty to Him.
 

WillJ

Coolness Connoisseur
Joined
Aug 9, 2002
Messages
9,471
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USA
Originally posted by puglover
Why would an atheist even care if he said to do his duty to God? If he thinks there is none, saying to be reverant doesn't hurt anything. Maybe if there WAS a God then he would be reverent or do his duty to Him.
Maybe because since he doesn't believe in God, he doesn't want to waste any time doing any duties to Him?

Of course, if all he has to do is say a little pledge or something, I agree; there's no point in getting worked up over it. However, if he's constantly reminded of the religious aspect of it (which I doubt is too common in the Scouts), I can certainly see why he would care.

And same with gays; if you're gay and want to join the Scouts, just don't say you're gay (or advance on one of the Scouts). Simple as that, AFAIK.

I think the problem some people have with the Boy Scouts is not that they think that they shouldn't be allowed to not allow gays and athiests, but they question why they don't allow gays and athiests. I have yet to hear a convincing argument about why it is so.
 
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