BPT graph

[bobbyboy29]

Hi guys, i've been patrolling these forums for quite a while now but haven't contributed much as i am only a mere monarch player compared to all you diety, immortal and emperor veterans. Also I only just purchased the BTS expansion, my favourite new feature is that now you can see how many BPT (beakers per turn) your civ generates. this is great for checking how quickly you are teching and how your economy is faring. My only problem is, I have no benchmarks to compare it to. All you guys seem pretty adept in analysis of the game and i was wondering whether someone could generate a graph of optimum bpt against what year it is. Or at least give me a general idea of how many bpt i should be generating at 500bc, 1 ad, 500 ad etc... I know this varies with different maps leaders and economies and how many tech trades you make, but a general guide would be a great guide. Thanks!

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Hi guys, i've been patrolling these forums for quite a while now but haven't contributed much as i am only a mere monarch player compared to all you diety, immortal and emperor veterans. Also I only just purchased the BTS expansion, my favourite new feature is that now you can see how many BPT (beakers per turn) your civ generates. this is great for checking how quickly you are teching and how your economy is faring. My only problem is, I have no benchmarks to compare it to. All you guys seem pretty adept in analysis of the game and i was wondering whether someone could generate a graph of optimum bpt against what year it is. Or at least give me a general idea of how many bpt i should be generating at 500bc, 1 ad, 500 ad etc... I know this varies with different maps leaders and economies and how many tech trades you make, but a general guide would be a great guide. Thanks!

You're not going to like the answer.

It varies by map, difficulty, and game speed (yes, even game speed).

The best point of reference you can use is how your civ is doing relative to the AIs and your own size. Large and backwards is ok b/c you'll catch up with so many cities. Small with a tech lead is ok if you can either hold the tech lead or use it to expand militarily. Small and backward = death. Obviously the final possibility here is ideal.

On top of raw BPT, when you get your great people, which great people they are, and what you use them for can have a drastic effect on your tech pace even if the BPT doesn't change.

If you have more room to expand early and do so at the expense of tech, you're fine and it isn't worth comparing your BPT to a skilled player who gets boxed in and is teching like mad because he's got no choice but to do so.

Post some games in ongoing series or just one of your own with screenshots and other players will offer advice though!

 

[DMOC]

Agreed. The only way you can tell how well you're doing in technology and beakers is to compare yourself with the AI. If you happen to be in isolation, then listen to announcements made like religions being founded and wonders.

I can, though, provide you with some VERY GENERAL benchmarks for beakers at the higher difficulty levels on standard maps:

1 AD - Probably 50 to 150 would be best.
500 AD - At least 200 would be nice. It's hard to reach, though.
1000 AD - Probably around 300-600.
End game - Assuming a space race win, about 2000.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Haha, DMOC those numbers would allow one to BLOW EMPEROR OUT WITH LITTLE effort . Although I do frequently see around 300/turn in the 1000-1200 AD range. Although...part of the reason I tend to be lower is that it's often right around this timeframe that I prepare for war (or am recovering from an earlier one). Still, IMO 600/turn is a bit high around then unless you've had some favorable occurrences/lots of cities.

150 at 1 AD is an upper limit ----> fairly easy in some games with mids or GLH but at the same time flat-out impossible on other maps. 50 is pretty attainable to everyone and only an extremely poor map should see less by then (or like if you're axe rushing 3 people, but then you aren't going for beakers).

I never get 200 around 500 AD . Well, not without rep. With bureaucracy and a strong cottage capitol I can get 150ish. That's probably why you say it's hard to reach ^_^.

OP: Do note that DMOC is immortal/deity and that I'm emp/immortal. You can win and win consistently with a fraction of these tech rates at monarch or below, and in some cases the slow AI tech pace will actually make it harder to tech quickly yearwise (they'll have nothing to trade so certain economy techs will come slower). On monarch, you could halve those tech guidelines by DMOC at everything but 1 AD, and still pretty much lead the pack...even without bulbing (which is iffy to leave out, bulbing gets you to important techs very quickly if you choose to do it).

I had a game where I won liberalism in the 800's AD and my tech rate was only around 150bpt. Bulbs.

 

[oyzar]

You should aim to have at least 50 bpt before 1000 BC, at least 100 before 1 AD. It is very hard to compare though. As it depends on AI tech rate a lot(or other civs if playing mp). Getting 200 bpt at 1 AD is not impossible by any means. Burrecracy capital easy give you 150 beakers alone(at 100% anyways) since that is frequently 1/3 of your overall income it is easy to see that even 300 bpt is doable somewhere between 500BC and 1AD. Of course this doesn't factor in bulbing and trading around and other suchs things...

 

[mirthadir]

You're not going to like the answer.

It varies by map, difficulty, and game speed (yes, even game speed).

The best point of reference you can use is how your civ is doing relative to the AIs and your own size. Large and backwards is ok b/c you'll catch up with so many cities. Small with a tech lead is ok if you can either hold the tech lead or use it to expand militarily. Small and backward = death. Obviously the final possibility here is ideal.

On top of raw BPT, when you get your great people, which great people they are, and what you use them for can have a drastic effect on your tech pace even if the BPT doesn't change.

If you have more room to expand early and do so at the expense of tech, you're fine and it isn't worth comparing your BPT to a skilled player who gets boxed in and is teching like mad because he's got no choice but to do so.

Post some games in ongoing series or just one of your own with screenshots and other players will offer advice though!

Small and backward is doable if you have a good diplo setup. Mostly you need some friendlies, and hopefully a tame AP. You pretty much have no hope of a domination victory and space requires you to somehow score the internet and burn spaceship parts. The best thing about being small and backward is that you can pick up lots of "free" diplo points for lightweight demands (maps, gold, etc.).

The number one thing to remember when you are small and backward (most often caused by isolation) is that you MUST HAVE FRIENDS. With a few friends you can game the AP (always worth building IMO) to a quick win while the AI is 9 techs ahead. Likewise if you build the UN (or steal it with the help of a neighbor, your fellow crusaders, or a smash/grab/forced peace job) you have a shot at winning still. Both the AP and the UN are down paths many AIs ignore and allow you to leverage GP to get the tech and build them (respectively) before the AIs can nab them.

Lastly if you can score a DP with some STRONG allies you can run for culture even though your land area is crap. Playing "collect them all" with religions can net some obscene modifiers and a few GP can let you turn cash (particularly shrine cash) into culture at phenomenal rate

If circumstances dictate that you can't get more land than the AI and that you cannot reach a point close to tech parity where you can leverage an advantage; then play the diplomatic suck up game, get some allies and try for diplo wins or culture. You can do this with nothing but warriors if you are really good/lucky.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

You should aim to have at least 50 bpt before 1000 BC, at least 100 before 1 AD. It is very hard to compare though. As it depends on AI tech rate a lot(or other civs if playing mp). Getting 200 bpt at 1 AD is not impossible by any means. Burrecracy capital easy give you 150 beakers alone(at 100% anyways) since that is frequently 1/3 of your overall income it is easy to see that even 300 bpt is doable somewhere between 500BC and 1AD. Of course this doesn't factor in bulbing and trading around and other suchs things...

It's a good point ---> I was giving BPT at the % where you don't lose money. In practice, this seldom happens unless you're lazy , and players will either deficit research much higher (making DMOCs numbers quite reasonable) or keep the slider lower while building science multipliers.

However, even I micro the slider this way sometimes because in any given turn it only takes about 2 seconds to do it . I like doing it because it lets me figure out which techs the AI will/won't have for trade easier (once you actually research the tech, you get it quickly), and of course if you put in multipliers before raising the slider you actually net more beakers.

I'm not a good person to compare BPT to in many games though, because I'll go over aggressive at the expense of tech. As mirth said, diplo can pull one's fat out of the fire here, although a lot of cities, espionage, and production can do it too.

 

[oyzar]

My rates(cept for the 150 in capital) were all when going in 0 even though you never do this in practice....

 

[bobbyboy29]

Thanks guys! This has been a lot of help and... in some ways no help at all. Maybe i should have named this thread "tell me something i don't already know". But all jokes aside i'm glad i got all these responses and it has given me a hand ( i jotted those numbers down on a piee of paper for future reference in future games). What i was hoping to get ideally, and i even might create it myself is for someone to track their bpt, amount of bulbs, tech trades and espionage steals and figure out how long it would take them to research the entire tech tree over a series of games, then average out all of the figures to get a general line of best fit for everyone to use as a general guide. i.e in 500ad i have 229 bpt, according to this awesome graph i'm on track to finish the tech tree by... 1914? damn, better build a library. Or something like graph. I just finished school so i may even get around to it. If I do I'll keep you posted (get it?)

 

[PieceOfMind]

If I do I'll keep you posted (get it?)

Sounds great! My subscription to this thread will remain.

 

[Iranon]

When not collecting wonders, I tend to favour a 'basics first' philosophy - apart from a gamebreaking wonder pretty much nothing gets you long-term returns that can compete with those from a humble settler or a pile of units for conquest.

This means I don't mind breaking even at 100% gold, working mostly hammer tiles... as long as I can somehow get to Currency/Code of Laws (often assisted by conquest/pillaging while researching at ridiculous deficits, extortion, Oracle slingshots or losing wonder races with the appropriate resource) in a reasonable time I'm good.

In one recent game (normal speed), I had sustainable rates of

1 AD - ~20 beakers
1500 AD - ~3000 beakers

Unfortunately I have no save from the time in between... but exactly when research starts to skyrocket is more a question of when I ran out of valid targets than anything else.

 

[bobbyboy29]

OK so i've decided to take the plunge and make this thing. It will take some time though. What i would really like and would be greatly appreciated is data from your own games. I simply can't play enough games quickly enough to get enough data to create this graph quickly. Ideally it would be nice if some people gave me turn by turn bpt numbers from their games but that may be too hard. As I just want a general guide it would be nice if people could just post me their bpt at turns 50,100,150 etc... and also their end date, type of win (or loss) and how far into the tech tree they were. I don't care what level, map or leader you were playing just as long as the game was on epic speed. Your help on this would be greatly appreciated!

 

[oyzar]

I have a game on epic speed i am playing right now it is 470 BC and i am doing roughly 300 bpt at roughly equal beaker rate. Ofc it is advanced start, mp, pitboss, no tt on noble so probably not very comparable, but you asked for it .

 

[bobbyboy29]

oh yeh forgot about advanced starts, they cant count either...

 

[DMOC]

If you're looking at some games with sample BPT, a good idea would be to skim through some of the games that people post themselves here. You could check out individual game threads or group game threads and just look at the screenshots. Be sure you take into account the map type, difficulty, game speed, the gold lost/gained per turn, and of course, the date.

PS: My last win was a diplomatic one on immortal difficulty on normal speed and fractal, I think (it was the Immortal open game here with Pericles, you can search it on the forums to find that thread). I was making about 2000 beakers by 1700 AD when the game ended soon afterwards when I got my hated opponent to build the UN.

 

[CivCorpse]

I don't usually set "goals" for bpt. I develope my cities as terrain dictates. And as the game progresses I gauge my needs on how the AI is teching. One thing noone seems to have mentioned is the specific AI's in a game. If you have some true tech whores you need to either beeline military techs and hope to take their land. Or spam cottages and run mega specialists at the expense of military production. I had a game where I wiped the 2 AI off my continent and was doing well (or so i thought) when caravels started popping up in about 600AD from mansa, Pacal and Ghandi....who were the same religion and loved each other greatly. The tech trading screen was dismal. I did not win this game.

 

[CivCorpse]

Although...part of the reason I tend to be lower is that it's often right around this timeframe that I prepare for war (or am recovering from an earlier one).

For TMIT, this timeframe begins with the start screen and remains until the end of the game.

 

[PieceOfMind]

If I may just mention it would be odd to only record the BPT. In many of my games where there are lot of cottages my economy is largely controlled by the slider. On turns where I send my esp slider to 80% my BPT is not going to look very good.

To be honest, I reckon it would be a good idea to record all 4 of beakers, gold, esp and culture per turn (though the culture is definitely less important I guess). But then it starts to look like you might as well just record the graphs of GNP at the end of each game but try to put a scale on them (they don't have a scale by default). Perhaps it's possible to mod a scale in?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

For TMIT, this timeframe begins with the start screen and remains until the end of the game.

More or less!

Lonely hearts club games confuse the troops a lot...fighting water?

I'll BLOW UP THE OCEAN

 

[cabert]

It's not a contest, but I thought I might give you the numbers out of my latest game (not optimized for tech rates though, I was going for culutral and it was an archipelago map = almost no cottages, and building beakers is not an option)
standard archipelago, playing Joao, marathon speed
1AD : 7 cities, 50 % science = 81 beakers (going for music)
500 AD : still 7 cities, 70% science = 193 beakers (going for education)
1000 AD : 11 cities, 0% science= 9 beakers lol:, well going for culture obvisouly, running universal suffrage to $ rush the needed temples. I modified the rates to see what I could do. at a sustainable 70%, it was 342 bpt. Still far from optimal since running universal suffrage instead of representation isn't helping)
End game : 100% culture = only 1 beaker for each artist. I still was in the tech race though , tech trades ftw)