Brainstorming Thread: Cultural Victory vs Other Victories

Biggest issue for SV is that you need EVERY single Tech in the game, minus Future Tech. GDR's, Stealth Bombers, Globalization; you get all that stuff along the way to SV. I say we would have to move the Spacechip parts not be on the last 4 Techs to make SV not take forever.
 
Researching the entire tech tree is the premise for SV. Not interested in detaching that.
 
Do we view L.Vern’s data as the best basis for this discussion?
If so, is anybody planning to collect more data for this purpose? If so, what?
 
I will get a culture victory every time at chieftian vs Science i find if culture isnt obtainable in the 500 turns standard i dont hit the mark as im not concentrating on a sv time victory is often the case.

anecdotal evidence isnt based on anything scientific pardon the pun (too many christmas drinks to type a sentence) but i can show you games where i play casually and maybe not optimal but im sure if you adusted either to make the CV harder to obtain and changed the science cost to make it quicker youd hit a sv if culture fails within a 100 turns around the 450 turn standard.

agree with Pineapple Dan above on post #42 researching the entire tree is sv but at lower levels it must be easier to obtain. This is currently the hardest out of them all to obtain.

If there isnt hard or fast rules for example i take CiV X to take tree Y to get Victory condition Z. Then i believe lower levels should be much quicker to obtain.

Why should i take this religion ? Why should I take this Ideology? is it because im playing wide. Im playing miltaristically or im playing tall ?

Simulation data does not reveal the entire story in my opinon.
 
I will get a culture victory every time at chieftian vs Science i find if culture isnt obtainable in the 500 turns standard i dont hit the mark as im not concentrating on a sv time victory is often the case.

anecdotal evidence isnt based on anything scientific pardon the pun (too many christmas drinks to type a sentence) but i can show you games where i play casually and maybe not optimal but im sure if you adusted either to make the CV harder to obtain and changed the science cost to make it quicker youd hit a sv if culture fails within a 100 turns around the 450 turn standard.

agree with Pineapple Dan above on post #42 researching the entire tree is sv but at lower levels it must be easier to obtain. This is currently the hardest out of them all to obtain.

If there isnt hard or fast rules for example i take CiV X to take tree Y to get Victory condition Z. Then i believe lower levels should be much quicker to obtain.

Why should i take this religion ? Why should I take this Ideology? is it because im playing wide. Im playing miltaristically or im playing tall ?

Simulation data does not reveal the entire story in my opinon.

I also play on lower levels & you are right, on these levels science victory is extremely hard to get in the time frame available, whereas the higher level you play it is easier. This makes no sense. The main reason for this is because on the higher levels the AI gets lots of advantages, which can actually assist the player as they can get science from them to push themselves forward, Whereas on the lower levels you are mostly leading & the AI doesn't obtain science & techs so quickly.
 
This makes no sense. The main reason for this is because on the higher levels the AI gets lots of advantages, which can actually assist the player as they can get science from them to push themselves forward, Whereas on the lower levels you are mostly leading & the AI doesn't obtain science & techs so quickly.
So it does makes sense. You've just explained it. Easier difficulty doesn't make SV faster for you. It makes it easier, because AI will get it later than on higher difficulties.
 
So it does makes sense. You've just explained it. Easier difficulty doesn't make SV faster for you. It makes it easier, because AI will get it later than on higher difficulties.
The point both of us are saying, is not that science victory isn't easier, but it takes so long to get it, & so boring that you would go for another victory first.
 
Yeah, for the same reason you usually get other victory than time victory first. So you win by science if you cannot dominate otherwise.
 
Yeah, for the same reason you usually get other victory than time victory first. So you win by science if you cannot dominate otherwise.
So this makes it sound like there's a preferential order of Victory. Try to win by Domination. If not Domination, Culture. If not Culture, Diplomacy. If not Diplomacy, Science. If that's the case, then Culture being the most frequent seems to make the most sense. I don't buy it. I think the point of multiple victory options is to have multiple options, not as fallbacks to the previous one. Science should be an option, not a fallback.

I also don't buy this idea that the point of a science victory is to research every tech in the game. We don't apply the same rigour to Diplomatic victories (Ally every CS) or Cultural victories (Earn every policy - not even earn every tenet in an Ideology). The point of a Science Victory isn't, in my opinion, to research every tech. It's to have enough of a tech lead that you can win before other civs win through the same or other methods. The fact that CV happens so much earlier is clearly the biggest problem to this. If Diplomacy and Science are happening around the same time, then CV is definitely the problem. If Diplomacy isn't far behind CV then maybe CV needs some tweaks, but Science probably also would in that case. Maybe Science should be a little later than the others on average, but not 2+ entire eras. I'd prefer it was brought up a little earlier, myself.
 
So this makes it sound like there's a preferential order of Victory. Try to win by Domination. If not Domination, Culture. If not Culture, Diplomacy. If not Diplomacy, Science. If that's the case, then Culture being the most frequent seems to make the most sense. I don't buy it. I think the point of multiple victory options is to have multiple options, not as fallbacks to the previous one. Science should be an option, not a fallback.
Nah, I'd say that Dominion and Diplomacy victories are alternative to Culture victory, because they require you to beat opponent "defences" which are be capitols, votes or culture respectively. Science victory is the most passive one (except for Time victory), that requires the least interactions with other civs, so it makes sense to make it later, if the only way to prevent it is to conquer the civ.
The point of a Science Victory isn't, in my opinion, to research every tech. It's to have enough of a tech lead that you can win before other civs win through the same or other methods.
Yeah and that's the case right now. You have to have a big enough tech lead, so you have time to produce rocket parts.
 
Nah, I'd say that Dominion and Diplomacy victories are alternative to Culture victory, because they require you to beat opponent "defences" which are be capitols, votes or culture respectively. Science victory is the most passive one (except for Time victory), that requires the least interactions with other civs, so it makes sense to make it later, if the only way to prevent it is to conquer the civ.

Yeah and that's the case right now. You have to have a big enough tech lead, so you have time to produce rocket parts.

if the ai was 2 eras ahead the player could potentially nick a cv and its building spaceship parts but if your ahead on science then the ai culture could be pretty large at this point and "defend" against it.

if your way ahead on science warfare becomes quite trivial late on conquering the ai civ would be a big ask (albiet the AI weaknesses)

if your ahead on science your more than likely not been keeping up with city states the problem here is the tourism and the lategame science values if i can get a CV in around turn 300 and im playing casually then there lies the problem
 
Just won a deity game as Arabia by CV at turn 268. Got almost all of the cultural wonders from medieval era all the way to cristo redentor (even though 5 AIs were 2 techs ahead of me for entire renaissance). I got second tier 3 ideology and became influential with everyone like 3 turns apart of each other. I only used coup city state quest once in the entire game (why would I ever need GPP as Arabia lol).
And okay I get that Arabia is a tourism monster due to their bonuses to GP generation and trade route tourism modifier. Yet I still don't understand the fact that Portugal, with 9 cities, each of 24 citizens or more, with overall twice as much production and food than mine, wouldn't be able to get a SV in another 100 turns. Venice was in the game and they ate like 4 city-states, some other civs conquered 3 more, so I guess diplomatic victory was hardly an option for the AI. I was feeling like I am going to win anyhow, with DipV blocked, SV locked at turn 370 or so and DomV not being obtainable by AI. Even if I didn't make all those precious wonders.
What I'm trying to say is that I think the problem really lies in historic events. Playing as Arabia I really paid attention to them and around turn 250 I noticed I averaged around 1500 tourism per turn with every civ just from historic events (making it around one third of my tourism generation). It's dependent on the actual tourism per turn, so I think just reducing the modifier could delay CV by some turns.
 
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Most VCs are actually a combination of science and hammers in differing ratios.

So one idea for SV would be removing the SS booster from the the bottom of the tech tree (I forgot the tech), shifting it to a more northerly techs, but then increase the number of parts needed (say 6 boosters instead of 3 idea).

This would make the building kd the spaceship itself more of a focus, making SV a bit more hammer focused rather than pure science. This also makes it slightly more interactive in that it’s more chance for enemies to disrupt your parts with spies and units. It also makes aluminum more important which then means you have to balance aluminum for military versus parts more carefully.

Something like that might work
 
Unless you are proposing to make the victory paths identical, they will differ either in how fast they can be accomplished, how difficult their goals are, and how much other civs can interfere with you.
  • Domination:
    • The fastest victory
    • Potentially winnable in any era as fast as you can beat everyone on the map.
    • Very difficult to achieve, essentially having to conquer every other player in an 8-way free-for-all
    • Easy for other civs to resist simply by defending themselves against you.
    • Domination also doubles as the most effective and obvious way of disrupting someone else's victory path.
    • Carries a high cost as you are perceived by other civs as dangerous, and that dealing with you isn't profitable.
    • Potentially impossible to achieve - If a military stalemate happens, its very possible you just wouldn't be able to kill everyone in time.
  • Cultural:
    • An early victory type.
    • Requires high investment in culture to have the requisite policies, but the tech prerequisites are early.
    • Requires large investments in dedicated tourism infrastructure, which is costly and of limited value outside this victory path
    • Like Domination, requires you to overwhelm other civilizations' defenses
    • Unlike Domination, the defeat is indirect and reversible, but it is harder for other civs to resist directly.
    • Other civs can counter it by bolstering their own culture and investing in infrastructure that will resist foreign influence.
    • Potentially impossible to achieve. Another civ could make more cultural defense than you could ever match with tourism offense, stalling a CV indefinitely.
  • Diplomatic:
    • Somewhat late and slow.
    • Has a late tech lock, but only 1.
    • Fairly self-contained. Requires a lot of interaction with minor players (ie. city-states), but not necessarily major players.
    • Reversible, with strong WC proposals (eg. decolonization) and enemy counterplay options (eg. outcompeting or killing City-states)
    • Potentially Inevitable. Every failed world leader vote gives, more free WC votes to the Diplo leader. They will get enough votes eventually unless another victory happens.
  • Science:
    • Very late, slow victory
    • Is basically entirely composed of tech locks and a Production gate.
    • Progress is irreversible and virtually impossible for other players to interfere with short of killing you.
    • Almost inevitable. The only thing preventing it is a Time Victory happening first
  • Time:
    • The latest, slowest victory
    • Inevitable and cannot be stopped.
Those are the basic outlines of the victories. People think that CV is too common. That's not necessarily true, there is no requirement that all VCs be treated equally, but too many of 1 victory makes that VC feel more viable than others, and makes games feel more similar.

Here are the levers you could pull for CV:
  • Push later by adding later tech prerequisites
    • My least favorite solution. Culture already has a minimum policy prerequisite so this is repetitive.
    • Diplo victory already has the main constraint of 1 super-late game tech unlock. How about we not make these identical?
    • If anything I would suggest that we take the tech prerequisite out entirely. Adding tech prerequisites is homogenizing the victories and going in the opposite direction
  • Push later by increasing the policy prerequisites
    • I'm not entirely opposed to this suggestion, but it's lazy and unimaginative.
    • It doesn't really engage with the game mechanics other than to make a number bigger.
    • I would instead propose that policies and tenets cost more overall, rather than simply increasing the number required
  • Decrease the overall sources of :tourism: cultural offense and strengthen the sources of :c5culture: cultural defense
    • This is the proposal that directly engages with the nuts & bolts of the game mechanics
    • Any strengthening of :c5culture: cultural defense will make policy adoption faster; a proposal that adds to defense should also look at increasing policy costs to prevent knock-on effects
  • Make the victory riskier by removing late game steroids
    • Involves weakening or removing powerful endgame tools like T3 tenets, buildings, wonders, and tech modifiers
    • Make stalling a cultural leader more viable, forcing them to kill cultural holdouts, switch to another victory path, or lose.
    • The current CV is faster than DiploV, but also feels less risky. Stalling a CV with cultural resistance is harder than killing or flipping CS allies.
    • This will make CV more different from SV and DiploV by making the victory path feel more frontloaded and less inevitable.
  • Raise the opportunity cost of Tourism sources, thereby making them riskier and less attractive to develop everywhere
    • Make cultural infrastructure more niche by weakening the number of bonuses they give individually, and increasing the overall :c5production: cost and :c5gold:maintenance on your empire
    • Find more ways to dislocate :c5culture: infrastructure from :tourism: infrastructure, making cultural buildings easier to justify and incorporate into your build queues while :tourism: sources remain firmly niche
    • The Hotel is the arch example of this: Only gives :tourism:, and has a relatively high :c5production: and :c5gold: burden
    • A late game source of :tourism: from tiles would also be a good idea, because tiles engender an opportunity cost every turn by locking finite tiles around a city and :c5citizen:population that could be used for other things.
TL;DR - Cultural victory is comparatively fast and easy to stop. If you want fewer of them you can either make them slower or even easier to stop. I support making them easier to stop.
 
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Unless you are proposing to make the victory paths identical, they will differ either in how fast they can be accomplished, how difficult their goals are, and how much other civs can interfere with you.
  • Domination:
    • The fastest victory
    • Potentially winnable in any era as fast as you can beat everyone on the map.
    • Very difficult to achieve, essentially having to conquer every other player in an 8-way free-for-all
    • Easy for other civs to resist simply by defending themselves against you.
    • Domination also doubles as the most effective and obvious way of disrupting someone else's victory path.
    • Carries a high cost as you are perceived by other civs as dangerous, and that dealing with you isn't profitable.
    • Potentially impossible to achieve - If a military stalemate happens, its very possible you just wouldn't be able to kill everyone in time.
  • Cultural:
    • An early victory type.
    • Requires high investment in culture to have the requisite policies, but the tech prerequisites are early.
    • Requires large investments in dedicated tourism infrastructure, which is costly and of limited value outside this victory path
    • Like Domination, requires you to overwhelm other civilizations' defenses
    • Unlike Domination, the defeat is indirect and reversible, but it is harder for other civs to resist directly.
    • Other civs can counter it by bolstering their own culture and investing in infrastructure that will resist foreign influence.
    • Potentially impossible to achieve. Another civ could make more cultural defense than you could ever match with tourism offense, stalling a CV indefinitely.
  • Diplomatic:
    • Somewhat late and slow.
    • Has a late tech lock, but only 1.
    • Fairly self-contained. Requires a lot of interaction with minor players (ie. city-states), but not necessarily major players.
    • Reversible, with strong WC proposals (eg. decolonization) and enemy counterplay options (eg. outcompeting or killing City-states)
    • Potentially Inevitable. Every failed world leader vote gives, more free WC votes to the Diplo leader. They will get enough votes eventually unless another victory happens.
  • Science:
    • Very late, slow victory
    • Is basically entirely composed of tech locks and a Production gate.
    • Progress is irreversible and virtually impossible for other players to interfere with short of killing you.
    • Almost inevitable. The only thing preventing it is a Time Victory happening first
  • Time:
    • The latest, slowest victory
    • Inevitable and cannot be stopped.
Those are the basic outlines of the victories. People think that CV is too common. That's not necessarily true, there is no requirement that all VCs be treated equally, but too many of 1 victory makes that VC feel more viable than others, and makes games feel more similar.

Here are the levers you could pull for CV:
  • Push later by adding later tech prerequisites
    • My least favorite solution. Culture already has a minimum policy prerequisite so this is repetitive.
    • Diplo victory already has the main constraint of 1 super-late game tech unlock. How about we not make these identical?
    • If anything I would suggest that we take the tech prerequisite out entirely. Adding tech prerequisites is homogenizing the victories and going in the opposite direction
  • Push later by increasing the policy prerequisites
    • I'm not entirely opposed to this suggestion, but it's lazy and unimaginative.
    • It doesn't really engage with the game mechanics other than to make a number bigger.
    • I would instead propose that policies and tenets cost more overall, rather than simply increasing the number required
  • Decrease the overall sources of :tourism: cultural offense and strengthen the sources of :c5culture: cultural defense
    • This is the proposal that directly engages with the nuts & bolts of the game mechanics
    • Any strengthening of :c5culture: cultural defense will make policy adoption faster; a proposal that adds to defense should also look at increasing policy costs to prevent knock-on effects
  • Make the victory riskier by removing late game steroids
    • Involves weakening or removing powerful endgame tools like T3 tenets, buildings, wonders, and tech modifiers
    • Make stalling a cultural leader more viable, forcing them to kill cultural holdouts, switch to another victory path, or lose.
    • The current CV is faster than DiploV, but also feels less risky. Stalling a CV with cultural resistance is harder than killing or flipping CS allies.
    • This will make CV more different from SV and DiploV by making the victory path feel more frontloaded and less inevitable.
  • Raise the opportunity cost of Tourism sources, thereby making them riskier and less attractive to develop everywhere
    • Make cultural infrastructure more niche by weakening the number of bonuses they give individually, and increasing the overall :c5production: cost and :c5gold:maintenance on your empire
    • Find more ways to dislocate :c5culture: infrastructure from :tourism: infrastructure, making cultural buildings easier to justify and incorporate into your build queues while :tourism: sources remain firmly niche
    • The Hotel is the arch example of this: Only gives :tourism:, and has a relatively high :c5production: and :c5gold: burden
    • A late game source of :tourism: from tiles would also be a good idea, because tiles engender an opportunity cost every turn by locking finite tiles around a city and :c5citizen:population that could be used for other things.
TL;DR - Cultural victory is comparatively fast and easy to stop. If you want fewer of them you can either make them slower or even easier to stop. I support making them easier to stop.
Cultural: can be stalled if you don't have the diplomatic power to stop a different World Ideology from being passed.
 
Maybe the AI can be more aggressive against influential players? There can be a higher diplo penalty for players that have an influence on other civs. The outcome can be war/sanctions/bribed wars against the most influential player.

War limits your influence via trade, and you can't send your GM to pop tourism. Getting dragged into wars can be a way to slow down CV.
 
just finished a japan progress/statecraft/industry/order game culture couldnt be won as my opponents aztec cheiftian ai had too much culture to win a CV , however around turn 460 i got UN passed and was ready for a science victory in about 10 more turns or so ! 4 original capitals were owned 2 by me and 2 by aztecs /standard speed standard size 6 player raging barbs

Aztecs gone Authority/Fealty/Imperialsm/Autocracy - had a similar city count but was 20 techs behind at least maybe more as closer to victory I was Aztecs went nuts on unit numbers - they had lots of ironclads and was doing signifcant damage to my missile cruisers

If i had a small number of cities i would of been owned - in this instance i might have to say to the devs that they have roughly got it right on this game, if you take the CV out of the equation the pace felt correct

Domination victory could of been on the cards but it would of taken a very long time to take down the sheer number of AI units.
 
In my current game (I am on turn 461), I am trying to prevent an AI opponent (China) from getting a cultural victory (CV).
I am playing as Netherlands; the AI opponents are China, Inca, Shoshone, Greece, Denmark, Siam, India.
My game set-up is: version 3.0.4, Prince difficulty, standard size, 8 civs, 16 city states, Continents Plus map, standard settings.
None of these are in play: random events, huts, research agreements, tech brokering, tech trading.
Some data from my game is shown in the table below. In this table:
  • the values shown for culture and tourism are cumulative totals, expressed in thousands (with rounding);
  • n(hold-outs) denotes the numbers of civs that China is not (at least) influential with;
  • n(tenets) denotes the number of ideology tenets attained by China. Note that at least nine tenets are needed to fulfil the CV requirement of two level 3 tenets.
  • since China's people have been content throughout, this CV requirement has been omitted.
Gamelog 3 Civ5VP CV defence data table.png
 
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