Brazil grants asylum to italian murderer/terrorist

luiz

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BBC story
Italy and Brazil in fugitive row

Battisti became a successful crime writer after moving to France
Italy has summoned Brazil's ambassador to protest against his country's decision to grant refugee status to a former Italian left-wing radical.

Cesare Battisti, a former member of the Armed Proletarians for Communism, is wanted by Italy in connection with the murders of four people.

He escaped from an Italian prison in 1981, while awaiting trial, and went on to reinvent himself as a novelist.

He has repeatedly denied any involvement in the killings.

Mr Battisti was convicted in absentia by an Italian court and sentenced to life in prison in 1990 for the murders of a prison guard and a butcher in the 1970s.

He is also accused of being an accomplice in two other murders, including the killing of a police officer.

The former radical has always denied involvement in the killings, and in his memoir published in 2006, he protested his innocence.

"I am guilty... of having participated in an armed group with a subversive aim and of having carried weapons, but I never shot anyone," he wrote in "Ma Cavale" or "My Escape".

"Unanimous outrage"

Brazil's decision to grant Cesare Battisti asylum has provoked outrage in Italy.

The Italian foreign ministry summoned the Brazilian ambassador to Rome to convey Italy's "unanimous outrage".

The Italian Association of Victims of Terrorism said the release of Mr Battisti was unacceptable.

"[It is a] further wound to the Italian people, the victims and their relatives who have been subjected to the blind and bloody violence of terror," it said in a statement.

Brazil has defended its decision.

Brazilian Justice Minister Tarso Genro said he believed Mr Battisti risked persecution if extradited to Italy.

"I am absolutely convinced that we have taken a correct position," he told reporters in Sao Paulo.

Mr Battisti was first granted asylum in France in 1990 by then President Francois Mitterrand after he agreed to renounce violence in return for sanctuary.

But he fled to Brazil in 2004, after France reversed its decision and agreed to extradite him to Italy.

He was arrested in 2007 in Rio de Janeiro in a joint operation by Italian, French and Brazilian police.

Camilo Toscano, a spokeswoman for Mr Battisti's lawyer, said the Supreme Court might grant Mr Battisti's release as early as Thursday.

Being brazilian is always a reason for shame and embarassment, but sometimes it becomes unbearable. This is one of those times. The terrorist-loving, criminal and corrupt Lula government has simply accepted to give asylum to a man sentenced to two life sentences in a fully democratic country (much more democratic and developed than Brazil), a man whose appeals have all been denied by the European Court, which is also fairer and more transparent than anything we have over here.

Why? Because he is a communist. The brazilian government is composed of former communist terrorists, so they treat their kind well. It is especially noteworthy that the same criminal brazilian government has denied asylum to two cuban boxers, during the pan-american games, and deported them back to the island-prison of private property of the Castro brothers.

Equally noteworthy that the same criminal and former terrorist who is now, in the most orwellian manner, our Minister of Justice, is determined to revoke the Law of Amnesty for the military that commited torture in Brazil during the military regime. Of course, he only wants to persecute the military criminals, not the communist criminals like himself who killed and robbed and were also pardoned by the same Law of Amnesty.

I am disgusted and ashamed and want that some far-right terrorist bomb Tarso Genro, Lula, and all that scum. I hope that Italy understands that not all brazilians are like those bastards and that hopefully after 2010 they will be prosecuted and arrested for all their corruption and crimes. And let us hope that Battisti soon become a victim of Rio's high murder rate.
 
Just read that even the Council of the Justice Ministery voted against granting asylum to the terrorist Battisti, but the terrorist minister Tarso Genro gave it anyway. This country is over.
 
Only last month or so Lula was guest in Italy, received by Berlusconi in his characteristic overeager style (he even sent for the AC MIlan Brazilians to meet him).
Now I read Lula quoted as saying that we should "respect a sovereign nation's decision", and that "an exile's situation can't possibly ruffle the historical good relationships between Italy and Brazil".

Interesting that he should use "historical" as a word (assuming of course his Portuguese has been translated well).
Don't worry Luiz, Braziilans have a very good image in Italy (many of you have Italian roots, and are great footballers = you're awesome people). Of course I expect our government to try its level best, but it ends there :)

To add to the article, a brief rundown of his murders:
6-VI-1978, he killed a police marshal
16-II-79, was armed cover to the murder of a butcher (guilty of killing "a hungry proletarian", that is, he had shot and killed an armed robber the month before)
the very same day, a jeweler was killed for a similar reason, and his then 15 y.o. son was left in a wheelchair. Battisti was proved the planner of the action.
19-IV-79, a police agent.
 
Rhetoric aside, this does seem like a regrettable decision to put it very mildly indeed.

I was surprised to hear you apparently come out against the prosecution of military criminals though, especially, if I remember correctly, your families history. Shouldn't we expect justice for both left and right? Having said that, breaking an amnesty is not something to take lightly.

I hope Brazil breaks out of the left right tribalism that plagues much of South America. Decisions like this shouldn't hinge on long dead affiliations like that.
 
I was surprised to hear you apparently come out against the prosecution of military criminals though, especially, if I remember correctly, your families history. Shouldn't we expect justice for both left and right? Having said that, breaking an amnesty is not something to take lightly.

I am all for revoking the Law of Amnesty, if people of both sides can be persecuted (as they both commited crimes). If only people of one side are held accountable, as this government wants, they are doing precisely what the military did: "to our friends generosity, to our enemies the law".
 
Rather disgraceful indeed. The guy doesn't qualify as a political prisoner in my book, treating him as such undermines the whole concept of political asylum.
 
I am all for revoking the Law of Amnesty, if people of both sides can be persecuted (as they both commited crimes). If only people of one side are held accountable, as this government wants, they are doing precisely what the military did: "to our friends generosity, to our enemies the law".

Fair enough.
 
Rather disgraceful indeed. The guy doesn't qualify as a political prisoner in my book, treating him as such undermines the whole concept of political asylum.

Not only that, but it is a rather huge slap in the face both of Italy and the European Court, which are both democratic and surely grant people accused of crimes at least as much resources for defense as we do in Brazil, and probably more. It is one thing to grant asylum to someone accused of a crime in North Korea (and even so, depending on the crime and the lack of evidence), but Italy?

It seems that even the italian leftist parties are outraged over this.
 
Hehehe, I came to CFC today because I knew this story would probably spark this sort of reaction from Luiz, and I wanted to add my perspective with less animosity towards the government and the country.

First and foremost, Cesare Battiste is in jail. He was arrested by request of the Italian Republic in extradition process 1085 before the STF, which is Brazilian Supreme Court. Now, Brazilian Constitution determines that a foreign sentence can only be ratified and gain an exequatur (meaning executive force) after a simplified form of Due Process, in which the condemned has right to ample defense, and aim to prove that the sentence has vices (either of form or of content).

Well; that said, it’s useful to remember that Brazilian 1988 Constitution expressed the re-democratization process, and that caused influences, for the good and for the bad, to be on the text. For the bad, we have the political amnesty – and I agree entirely with Luiz here that we should have people from both sides of the political spectrum judged – but was a concession of realpolitiks. Truth is that the re-democratization was relatively painless with a more conscientious branch of generals sort of returning the power to the people, but they would have fought against that should the amnesty not have been granted. To prevent a bloody conflict, amnesty was the compromise.

I support we should revert it, but that topic is for another thread – and perhaps it’s true that the government wants only right wingers to pay, I’ll even give Luiz that (after all people on the government today were on the left-wing side back then), but it’s true for both sides, and we don’t see many outspoken right-wingers of the time calling for it to be lifted. So, in all fairness, they both kind are happy with the way things are, and nobody is really pressing hard for that to happen.

On the good side, it made the constitution embrace what it calls political pluralism, meaning the idea that no political ideal shall be repressed or be subjected to criminal charges, and this defense of pluralism includes the explicit determination that no one shall ever be deported for political crimes.

That is what Cesare Battiste is holding to; he is defining his actions as political, and as so, he has the right to have that perspective judged by the STF before the order is issued.

Now, upon his prison, he filed his defense in STF, and simultaneously sought to achieve executive/administrative political refugee status before the CONARE (national committee for refugees), a status which was denied unanimously.

However, as CONARE is but an organ of the Ministry of Justice, he made an administrative appeal to the Minister himself, who overruled the decision. Now this here is the final word of the executive branch save an unlikely intervention from the President himself (who already said agree with the Minister), and is the decision that is being broadcast in the press and causing the outrage.

It possibly is as bit political as Luiz says, but from my perspective, I can’t honestly tell if that is a good or a bad decision from a technical standpoint (more on that later), though I tend to have more trust in the CONARE due to its specialized body than in the politicized ministerial overruling. However, it’s worth of noting that Battiste condemnation is mainly based in the testimony from an alleged accomplice, Pietro Mutti, that allegedly regretted his actions and became a collaborator to the authorities, with the accused absent and lack of strong independent of the ties between Mutti and Battiste – hence the thesis of political persecution.

I’ll admit here and now that I don’t know the files of the Italian Process to comment on the veracity of this either way.

Now, to judge if that decision means that Brazil is rotten to the core, is something I’ll leave to the readers of this topic. I personally think it’s more of an anachronism than the pure evil of his diagnostics (Brazil would not have hold an Al Capone or a Ted Bundy, and there was a political component to Battiste’s actions, wheter that qualifies him as a political refugee or not – that quality obviously being what gained him Luiz’ animosity and the government sympathy). It’s also worth of note that the same Battiste also spend a lot of time in France, under protection of François Mitterrand (I guess France is also rotten to the core ;)).

Now, for the stuff the press ISN’T saying, is that while the Minister of Justice decision to grant political asylum is irreversible, he can still be deported for non-political crimes by the STF, should the court decide that his actions were not representative of political action, but just common criminality.

Hence, Battiste’s administrative pursuit had a political component – influence the court with his “status of refugee” – and a pragmatic one – the STF has jurisprudence saying that the administrative recognition of refugee status allows for the ending of incarceration originated by the foreign country.

So, he already applied for that, but the STF has denied on the grounds that such jurisprudence was formed when the status was recognized by technical decision from CONARE, not by political decision from the Minister of Justice. Hence, he is STILL in jail.

For all of you who want to check my facts, the following links are straight from the STF:

http://www.stf.jus.br/arquivo/cms/noticiaNoticiaStf/anexo/EXT1085GM.pdf

http://www.stf.jus.br/portal/processo/verProcessoAndamento.asp

http://www.stf.jus.br/portal/cms/verNoticiaDetalhe.asp?idConteudo=101844

Now, for the technical notes: Brazil’s extradition process is strict and demanding, and determine, first and foremost, that a person will not be submitted to political judgment, but only technical judgment, and that the kinds of crimes were common, not political.

In Battiste’s case, two of the murders are eminently political, and hence, cannot be grounds for extradition, under penalty of violation article 4º, X and article 5º, VIII of the Brazilian Constitution.

The problem are the two other murders, that are apparently common crimes. Thing is that, according to the ministers of the STF, the main grounds for denial is that the Italian criminal process has not followed the Due Process of Law: First, because the main proof against him is Mutti’s testimony, and not only Mutti alleges to have been tortured (what causes his testimony to be irrelevant under the doctrine of the fruit of the poisonous tree), it also constitutes a case of “Denounce for Advantage”, a situation in which the one makes the accusation gains more process advantages the more and more he denounces – making it untrustworthy as false accusations increase benefits as much as real ones.

Not only that, there are two technical problems – Brazil’s and Italy’s laws differ in key aspects. In Italy, a person can be condemned while absent from the bench. In Brazil, the process stays on hold as long as it takes for the accused to be under judicial custody. Therefore, the process that condemned Battiste may have been perfect for Italy, but it fails to meet Due Process conditions for Brazilian standards, and the STF has long and laborious jurisprudence of denying extraditions when the process of the condemnation does not meet at least the same standards of Brazilian law.

Finally, and most important, Brazil’s constitution expressly forbid any eternal penalty (article 5º, XLVII, “b”), and Battiste was condemned to life in prison. Unless Italy makes a diplomatic commitment to commute the penalty to 30 years tops (which is the hardest Brazilian Law admits), than again the consolidate jurisprudence of the STF forbids the deportation. Problem is that, apparently, Italy can’t do that with breaking its own laws, and that creates quite a conundrum.

Ok, people, just wanted to add a little perspective to what is going on, and perhaps making some sense of the decisions made by Brazilian authorities, since press is quite lacking in that respect.

Regards :).
 
I am all for revoking the Law of Amnesty, if people of both sides can be persecuted (as they both commited crimes). If only people of one side are held accountable, as this government wants, they are doing precisely what the military did: "to our friends generosity, to our enemies the law".

Laws of amnesty passed decades ago are best left alone. Any quest for "justice" so long after the facts would probably do more harm than good. And that is not justice, but simply state-sanctioned revenge.

Not only that, but it is a rather huge slap in the face both of Italy and the European Court, which are both democratic

And I can't let this one pass. Neither of those things are democratic. The European Court should be abolished!
 
Fred, unfortunately this decision is entirely one-sided and that side is entirely evil.

Italy has a far better judicial system than Brazil. It has been democratic for far longer (including during the times where Battisti's "political" murders took place), and lets not forget, the European Court has denied his appeals and asserted that he received a fair trial.

That Brazil does not allow for sentences above 30 years seems irrelevant since he is not a brazilian citizen; as far as I am aware Brazil only refuses to extradite people who may face death sentences.

I can't believe that you are bringing up that crap about France that terrorist Tarso Genro used as an excuse. Mitterand granted him asylum during a time of armed struggle in exchange for him giving up violence. It was wrong, but it had a reason. That same France later revoked his asylum and even helped Brazil arrest him. France has its issues, but its not entirely rotten and is not ruled by terrorists and criminals like Brazil.

The case is clear cut. All editorials of the main papers, including the lef-leaning ones, have strongly condemned this absurd action. I intend to translate some and post here later, the one in the Estado de São Paulo is particularly brilliant. I don't think you want to side with those petista crypto-fascists always complaining about the press (and dreaming of censoring it).
CONARE, as you and I have said, voted againts asylum. Itamaraty (for non-brazilians, the Foreign Relations ministery) voted against asylum and even Celso Amorim is angry at Tarso Genro.

I also don't think that political murderers are exempt from deportation; if that's true that makes Brazil even more rotten and evil than I previously thought. A murder is a murder; the dead person and his/her family don't care about the motives. I don't think that Brazil would refuse to extradict a nazi war criminal whose murders were all politically motivated.

I don't think anyone but Tarso Genro and other terrorists and terrorist sympathisers are questioning the political motivation of this despicable act.

But hey, it's all expected from PT. Lets not use half-words: Tarso Genro, Dilma Rousseff (future presidential candidate!!), José Dirceu, José Genuíno and many others were engaged in terrorist activities, many of them commited murders, armed robbery, and other evil acts. All in the name of replacing the military dictatorship for a much worse stalinist dictatorship. In any civilized nation they would have been executed a long time ago, or sentenced to life in jail; in Brazil they are ministers that pardon convicted terrorists and murderers.

I do hope they all share the fate of Battisti's victims. Hey, if they are murdered for political reasons it is not wrong.
 
And I can't let this one pass. Neither of those things are democratic. The European Court should be abolished!

Maybe so, but I would still bet all of my possessions that they are fairer than anything we have in Brazil.

You can walk away from any crime in Brazil, if you have a good lawyer. If you don't, you may spend many years in a crowded cell for capturing some wild animal.

Brazil has no moral high ground to judge Italy or the European Court; the opposite would make far more sense.

As for your first point, I am also fine with letting thing be as they are. This government is the one hell-bent on prosecuting the military folks responsible for torture (which a priori is a noble goal IMO), but never mentioning the fact that many members of that government also tortured, killed and robbed; they just did it all under a red flag. So indeed it is best to leave the law alone, all things considered.
 
You can walk away from any crime in Brazil, if you have a good lawyer. If you don't, you may spend many years in a crowded cell for capturing some wild animal.
Dude, that's true of just about every country on Earth. And the way to get that good lawyer is to be stinking rich.
 
Fred, unfortunately this decision is entirely one-sided and that side is entirely evil.

That may even be, but I do not know the Italian files, so personally, I can’t tell. And while I have little trust on the Minister of Justice in this particular topic, I don’t dismiss the STF quite as easily, hence the time and hesitation to grant Italy’s request perhaps has some feasible grounds. Whether you believe it or not, there are some people in Brazil who are competent and know what they are doing.

Italy has a far better judicial system than Brazil. It has been democratic for far longer (including during the times where Battisti's "political" murders took place), and lets not forget, the European Court has denied his appeals and asserted that he received a fair trial.

Is this the “stray dog syndrome” of Brazilians, to quote from Nelson Rodrigues? The automatic assumption that things cometh from North are automatically above our standards?

Italy was under Mussolini when Brazil was under Vargas, and while it’s true that the former has been democratic ever since, while the later has had another 20 years dictatorship, it’s the right, not the left, who is to blame for that! (cheap shot, ok, but not much cheap; just shy of a worthy argument).

I, personally, would never accept a murder commited in a true democratic nation as valid political warfare. I think the concept is being stretched (more on that later), and I expect the STF to recognize that even those with political motivations were actually common criminality, and refuse the application of that clause.

However, faults of Brazilian Court are not in the structure and principles of our legislation, but in Implementation. Maybe many times our courts do fail to follow our own standards (and believe me; once, as a Trainee, I told to the judge who were supervising me that if it was up to me, I’d null half the processes we were working at for lack of proper development and rupture of guarantees). But these problems are the reality of lower courts; the STF works on ideal conditions, and can quite well evaluate a foreign sentence.

I don’t think he will be deported, because of the problem of the absent trial and the life sentence, which are grave and hard to bypass; however, I don’t doubt of the STF competence or of the standards of due process it’s bound to observe.

That Brazil does not allow for sentences above 30 years seems irrelevant since he is not a brazilian citizen; as far as I am aware Brazil only refuses to extradite people who may face death sentences.

Consider your awareness raised, than. Brazil won’t ever grant a deportation or an exequatur for any nation in the world, for any crime, if the foreigner sentence is superior to the penalty Brazil itself would impose for the same crime if under its own jurisdiction.

Quite obviously, life sentences are all but impossible to ratify.

I can't believe that you are bringing up that crap about France that terrorist Tarso Genro used as an excuse. Mitterand granted him asylum during a time of armed struggle in exchange for him giving up violence. It was wrong, but it had a reason. That same France later revoked his asylum and even helped Brazil arrest him. France has its issues, but its not entirely rotten and is not ruled by terrorists and criminals like Brazil.

Come’on, you think he was so terrible and frightening that France accept him in order to complete a deal in which he would cease violence? That is . .. .. .. .. .. .. .. . – France received him for considering him at risk of political prosecution, to give him asylum. If France wanted him to stop violent behavior because it considered him a risk, all it would do is throw him in jail themselves. Now, obviously France, which isn’t a rogue state, did that on the condition he would cease any violent activity. So it was not a “deal”, and France’s reasons were pretty much the same as Brazil’s.

I can’t judge France’s decision for the same reason I can’t judge Brazil’s – I honestly do not know the files. I DO know, however, that France’s political scenario has taken a shift for the right in recent years (Remember Le Pen?), and perhaps that explains the revocation of the asylum as much as the former orientation explains it being granted.

The case is clear cut. All editorials of the main papers, including the lef-leaning ones, have strongly condemned this absurd action. I intend to translate some and post here later, the one in the Estado de São Paulo is particularly brilliant. I don't think you want to side with those petista crypto-fascists always complaining about the press (and dreaming of censoring it).
CONARE, as you and I have said, voted againts asylum. Itamaraty (for non-brazilians, the Foreign Relations ministery) voted against asylum and even Celso Amorim is angry at Tarso Genro.

Please, do, I am curious to know more of the case (I don’t subscribe to Estadão). And no, I’m not “siding” to anyone, and in this case (unlike our debate on the Cuban athletes) I cannot make a case on the government actions being right, for I don’t know enough – I am just explaining the claims of the authorities who gave the asylum, something you didn’t do.

If these claims are accurate – which I know you deny, but again, I’m not defending them, I’m exposing them – the denial would be perfectly legitimate.

I also don't think that political murderers are exempt from deportation; if that's true that makes Brazil even more rotten and evil than I previously thought. A murder is a murder; the dead person and his/her family don't care about the motives. I don't think that Brazil would refuse to extradict a nazi war criminal whose murders were all politically motivated.

What if some German citzen had killed Hitler to stop his conquests and fled to France right after? If Nazi regime had survived, and asked for him to be deported, would you have granted it? To use a more feasible example, what if a Cuban killed castro to end the dictatorship, then fled to the USA?

“Political actions”, particularly murders, are quite hard to define, and I, for one, define them as actions of desperation when one’s capacity to defend an idea in the open is being repressed. So I, for one, would in principle rule out a murder as “political action” in any country with free speech. But even that rule is problematic. I, personally, think that in a case such as the husband of Terry Schiavo, you could stretch the definition of political (meaning opinative) persecution even against such a free country and denial extradiction to such a free country as the US, if the charges had stick. But I probably would be minority in that opinion, and this shows the range of definitions to be dealt with.

Now, the 9/11 murderers would never have that status, because while their motivation was clearly to make a political point, there was never a call for that, as they could perfectly have stood up in public and preached their stupid ideas.

Bringing up the Nazis, though, is obviously wrong (none of them were doing their crimes in a scenery of political debate; they were the ones holding the power), and a cheap tactic. I call Godwin’s Law. A person in power implementing systematic murders is not a political agent engaged in subversion/freedom fighting (whatever you wish to label it), but a state enforcer committing crimes against humanity, and obviously could not hide under that clause.

I don't think anyone but Tarso Genro and other terrorists and terrorist sympathisers are questioning the political motivation of this despicable act.

Maybe so, but it’s STF’s duty to acknowledge/examine the claim and determine the actual nature of the action, a judgment that is still pending, as part of due process. Personally, it would take quite a lot for me to acknowledge political persecution in a free democratic nation, but I can’t rule it out aprioristically.

I won’t be one bit surprised if the final word of STF on this turns out to be that the murders were in fact common criminality, but still they refuse extradition on the grounds of incompatibility of the penalty with Brazilian law, and refuse to acknowledge a sentence passed in the defendant’s absence – the technical issues I raised.

But hey, it's all expected from PT. Lets not use half-words: Tarso Genro, Dilma Rousseff (future presidential candidate!!), José Dirceu, José Genuíno and many others were engaged in terrorist activities, many of them commited murders, armed robbery, and other evil acts. All in the name of replacing the military dictatorship for a much worse stalinist dictatorship. In any civilized nation they would have been executed a long time ago, or sentenced to life in jail; in Brazil they are ministers that pardon convicted terrorists and murderers.

Brazil has no death penalty, so neither them, nor the rapists murderers and torturers from the military government would ever be executed. I don’t know if they would build a “worse dictatorship” than the one that actually happened, that was bad enough – not only counter-factual history is . .. .. .. .. .. .. .. ., I don’t judge illegitimate governments based on my liking or disliking of their agendas.

I do hope they all share the fate of Battisti's victims. Hey, if they are murdered for political reasons it is not wrong.

I wish murder for no one, ever, my friend.

Regards :).
 
Not that I know anything about the actual case, but if he was tolerated in France for 15 years or so it strongly suggests that the case is slightly more complicated than the OP suggests.
 
That may even be, but I do not know the Italian files, so personally, I can’t tell. And while I have little trust on the Minister of Justice in this particular topic, I don’t dismiss the STF quite as easily, hence the time and hesitation to grant Italy’s request perhaps has some feasible grounds. Whether you believe it or not, there are some people in Brazil who are competent and know what they are doing.
Italy is a fully democratic and friendly nation. The European Court, which is also free and just, has corroborated Italy's judgement by denying Battisti's appeals. What Brazil is doing here is questioning a trial considered fair by Italy and the EC. This would be laughable and ironic, if it was not tragic and evil.

Is this the “stray dog syndrome” of Brazilians, to quote from Nelson Rodrigues? The automatic assumption that things cometh from North are automatically above our standards?
The institutions of any western european nation are more efficient, transparent and just than ours. This is not a syndrome, as it is based on objective facts and confirmed by numerous global NGO's that consistently rank Brazil as extremely corrupt and unfair.

Italy was under Mussolini when Brazil was under Vargas, and while it’s true that the former has been democratic ever since, while the later has had another 20 years dictatorship, it’s the right, not the left, who is to blame for that! (cheap shot, ok, but not much cheap; just shy of a worthy argument).
Vargas was every bit as much of a dictator as Mussolini, who was in fact his inspiration. The Estado Novo was a brutal fascistoid dictatorship that cracked down dissent with fury. Read Memórias do Cárcere for a good idea of what was going on.
That we were under a "right-wing" dictatorship doesn't change the fact that it was a dictatorship while Italy was democratic (a democratic regime that Battisti was determined to destroy and replace for a bloody dictatorship). Our democratic tradtion pales in comparisson to theirs.

I, personally, would never accept a murder commited in a true democratic nation as valid political warfare. I think the concept is being stretched (more on that later), and I expect the STF to recognize that even those with political motivations were actually common criminality, and refuse the application of that clause.
I wonder what sort of psychopathic monster would accept a murder commited in a true democratic nation as valid political warfare. Ah, I know, Tarso Genro and his thugs.

Also, note that the absence of democracy is hardly carte blache for murder. It may be valid to target military or government personel/facilities, but I don't see the excuse to kill civilians like many members of the so-called "resistence movements" in Brazil did.

However, faults of Brazilian Court are not in the structure and principles of our legislation, but in Implementation. Maybe many times our courts do fail to follow our own standards (and believe me; once, as a Trainee, I told to the judge who were supervising me that if it was up to me, I’d null half the processes we were working at for lack of proper development and rupture of guarantees). But these problems are the reality of lower courts; the STF works on ideal conditions, and can quite well evaluate a foreign sentence.
I think that the italian and european equivalents of the STF can evaluate the sentence even better, given not only their superiority but also the fact that they know the case far better than the STF ministers.

Consider your awareness raised, than. Brazil won’t ever grant a deportation or an exequatur for any nation in the world, for any crime, if the foreigner sentence is superior to the penalty Brazil itself would impose for the same crime if under its own jurisdiction.
How come Brazil deported Jesse James Hollywood, then?

Quite obviously, life sentences are all but impossible to ratify.
I am sure there is a technicality that cane be used.

Come’on, you think he was so terrible and frightening that France accept him in order to complete a deal in which he would cease violence? That is . .. .. .. .. .. .. .. . – France received him for considering him at risk of political prosecution, to give him asylum. If France wanted him to stop violent behavior because it considered him a risk, all it would do is throw him in jail themselves. Now, obviously France, which isn’t a rogue state, did that on the condition he would cease any violent activity. So it was not a “deal”, and France’s reasons were pretty much the same as Brazil’s.
France did not receive him for considering him at risk of persecution. I can't stress this enough. This is a lie used by Genro. The "Mitterand Doctrine" applied only to those not convicted of very violent crimes. This was the case of Battisti's early convictions.

After he was condemned for murder, a new process was open for his extradiction. The thing is, at the time the European Court of Human Rights did not allow for in absentia trials like the ones that condemned Battisti for murder, so France did not extradite him. Shortly afterwards, however, the ECHR accepted in absentia trials, and France agreed to extradite him.

I can’t judge France’s decision for the same reason I can’t judge Brazil’s – I honestly do not know the files. I DO know, however, that France’s political scenario has taken a shift for the right in recent years (Remember Le Pen?), and perhaps that explains the revocation of the asylum as much as the former orientation explains it being granted.
Now this is just bizarre, Fred. Le Pen has nothing to do with it. His extradiction is within the procedure of the European Union and was decided by a french government that was very, very far from the "far-right".

Note that the italian left (and european left in general) are outraged at this patently evil decision by Tarso Genro. Not to mention the families of the victims, who now hate Brazil extremely and justifiably.

Please, do, I am curious to know more of the case (I don’t subscribe to Estadão). And no, I’m not “siding” to anyone, and in this case (unlike our debate on the Cuban athletes) I cannot make a case on the government actions being right, for I don’t know enough – I am just explaining the claims of the authorities who gave the asylum, something you didn’t do.
There is a right side and a wrong side here. Those who don't take a side in this manner are morally bankrupt. As i said, even the italian left is outraged.

The explanations given by terrorist Tarso Genro to go against the italian courts, the European Court, the Conare and Itamaraty are pathetic and feeble.

If these claims are accurate – which I know you deny, but again, I’m not defending them, I’m exposing them – the denial would be perfectly legitimate.
Yeah, sure, the italian courts are persecuting him, the EC is persecuting him, Conare is persecuting him, Itamaraty is persecuting him. Only Tarso Genro and a handful of other terrorists can see the truth.

Does this makes sense to you?

What if some German citzen had killed Hitler to stop his conquests and fled to France right after? If Nazi regime had survived, and asked for him to be deported, would you have granted it? To use a more feasible example, what if a Cuban killed castro to end the dictatorship, then fled to the USA?
Those would be political murders, acceptable under the circumstances. But if someone kill a german baker in protest against nazism, that would hardly be justified.

You mentioned very obvious cases in very obvious dictatorships. Don't forget that Battisti was fighting democracy, not dictatorship.

Now, the 9/11 murderers would never have that status, because while their motivation was clearly to make a political point, there was never a call for that, as they could perfectly have stood up in public and preached their stupid ideas.
The same is obviously true for Battisti. His actions were politically-motivated (as were the actions of nazis), but Italy was democratic and he could preach his stupid ideas in public. He just chose to kill people instead.

Bringing up the Nazis, though, is obviously wrong (none of them were doing their crimes in a scenery of political debate; they were the ones holding the power), and a cheap tactic. I call Godwin’s Law. A person in power implementing systematic murders is not a political agent engaged in subversion/freedom fighting (whatever you wish to label it), but a state enforcer committing crimes against humanity, and obviously could not hide under that clause.
No, it was a valid point. The murders commited by the nazis were generally politically motivated. What about the murders the nazis commited before rising to power?

Just because a murder is politically motivated doesn't mean the murdere deserves asylum. Brazil would not grant asylum to a nazi or to a 9/11 terrorist (I hope), and they are morally equivalent to Battisti. Or not?

Maybe so, but it’s STF’s duty to acknowledge/examine the claim and determine the actual nature of the action, a judgment that is still pending, as part of due process. Personally, it would take quite a lot for me to acknowledge political persecution in a free democratic nation, but I can’t rule it out aprioristically.
And Tarso Genro is convinced aprioristically that Italy and the European Court are persecuting poor Cesare Battisti.

Note that we don't have in Brazil any evidence that the italians and europeans don't. This whole case is just so obviously motivated by Genro's sympathy to fellow communist murderers that it stinks.

Brazil has no death penalty, so neither them, nor the rapists murderers and torturers from the military government would ever be executed. I don’t know if they would build a “worse dictatorship” than the one that actually happened, that was bad enough – not only counter-factual history is . .. .. .. .. .. .. .. ., I don’t judge illegitimate governments based on my liking or disliking of their agendas.
Neither do I. But we can compare the death toll of the cuban or soviet dictatorships that the likes of Dilma Rousseff and Tarso Genro loved with that of our own dictatorship that they hated, can we not?

Brazil killed some 200 people in 20 years. Do you know how many people were executed in the much smaller Cuba? What about the unprecedented democides of the USSR and China? Cambodja? How those fellas can claim to be freedom fighters is beyond me. They fought for the enslavement of the enitre brazilian nation.

I wish murder for no one, ever, my friend.
People like some members of the brazilian gvt. would not hesitate to murder you and your family if it serves their agenda. They did in fact commit several murders of innocents back in the day. What happened to Celso Daniel, much more recently, is equally disturbing.

Battisti murdered innocents and destroyed their families. Now we are giving him asylum and will give him freedom. Is that justice? Nope, justice would be him tasting his own medicine.
 
The Editorial of the Estado de São Paulo on the matter. I'll translate later

Não se pode exigir de um ministro de Estado uma qualidade de atuação que esteja acima de suas próprias limitações. Mas é de se exigir, seguramente, que não atrapalhe - sem razão alguma para fazê-lo, fora o velho ranço ideológico - o governo a que serve e o Estado no qual comanda importante Pasta. Ao dar refúgio a um cidadão italiano, condenado à prisão perpétua por ter assassinado quatro pessoas em sua atividade terrorista, o ministro da Justiça, Tarso Genro, tomou uma decisão desastrada sob vários aspectos e provocou, desnecessariamente, uma crise diplomática entre o Brasil e a Itália.

Tarso Genro contrariou recomendação expressa do procurador-geral da República, Antonio Fernando de Souza, que defendera a extradição do criminoso condenado Cesare Battisti. Desprezou o parecer do Comitê Nacional para os Refugiados (Conare) - órgão consultivo do Ministério da Justiça - que negara o pedido de refúgio de Battisti. Opôs-se ao Itamaraty, que tivera a acuidade de detectar o quanto era importante essa extradição para a diplomacia italiana. O ministro da Justiça fez prevalecer sua opinião pessoal, como se sua expertise (jurídico-internacional? diplomática?) fosse suficiente para solucionar quaisquer problemas "externos" nossos.

O mais grave, porém, é que, ao tentar justificar sua decisão, Tarso Genro arvorou-se em juiz da Justiça italiana, criticando a forma como Cesare Battisti fora julgado e condenado em seu país. Disse ele que o italiano "pode não ter tido direito à própria defesa, já que foi condenado à revelia". Disse também que "há indícios de que o advogado, que defendeu Battisti na Itália, tenha se utilizado de uma procuração falsificada". Como não poderia deixar de ser, o Ministério de Assuntos Estrangeiros da Itália demonstrou profunda contrariedade em relação à atitude do ministro brasileiro. Em nota oficial, além de revelar "surpresa" e "pesar" pela situação, informou que apelará diretamente ao presidente Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva e deixou insinuada uma ameaça à presença do Brasil na próxima reunião de cúpula do G-8, em julho, na Sardenha - já que atualmente pertence à Itália o comando do Grupo.

Além de manifestar-se através da nota, na qual também revela a "unânime indignação" de todas as forças políticas parlamentares do país, assim como da opinião pública italiana e dos familiares das vítimas dos crimes praticados por Cesare Battisti, o governo italiano convocou o embaixador brasileiro em Roma, o que é a tradução diplomática da crise entre os dois países. Anuncia-se, porém, que o Palácio do Planalto não vai desautorizar o ministro da Justiça, já que Tarso Genro revelara sua posição ao presidente Lula na segunda-feira e dele recebera sinal verde.

Indague-se agora: quem é o homicida ao qual o ministro da Justiça deu refúgio, contra a opinião geral? Nos anos 70 Battisti atuou no grupo Proletários Armados pelo Comunismo. Se fosse o caso de um "guerrilheiro" que lutava contra uma ditadura, seria compreensível falar-se em refugiado político. Mas a Itália então vivia - como vive desde o fim da 2ª Guerra Mundial - uma plena democracia, com liberdade de atuação e manifestação política até exagerada para os padrões europeus.

Na Itália, o subsecretário de Estado do Interior, Alfredo Mantovano, declarou que a decisão brasileira é "grave e ofensiva", aduzindo: "O governo italiano não pode aceitá-la. Em particular, por respeito às vítimas e a seus familiares." O Itamaraty, por sua vez, reconheceu que a concessão do refúgio gerou sério e indesejável mal-estar nas relações Brasil-Itália, além de ter contrariado compromissos internacionais de cooperação no combate ao terror. Recorde-se, a propósito, que em novembro, durante a visita do presidente Lula a Roma, o governo italiano havia insistido para que o Brasil concedesse a extradição do foragido. Por aí já se percebe o tamanho do estrago causado pelo ministro Genro aos interesses do governo brasileiro: o presidente Lula tinha a pretensão de aprofundar sua presença nos debates dos principais foros de governança mundial. Mas a Itália, que este ano preside o G-8, já avisou que os países desse grupo e seus colaboradores - caso do Brasil - "serão chamados a confirmar seu compromisso formal e a promover ações cada vez mais eficazes no combate ao terrorismo internacional". Como o Brasil, agora, se sairá dessa?
 
This is why he's a great lawyer he can get anyone off with the right bs and the right asshattery.

Can I just say kudos.

Moderator Action: Triggering the autocensor still counts as profanity.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

Justice is flawed and no disrespect to the shark you're only doing your job even if you are defending mass murderers.
 
Hehehe, I came to CFC today because I knew this story would probably spark this sort of reaction from Luiz, and I wanted to add my perspective with less animosity towards the government and the country.

First and foremost, Cesare Battiste is in jail. He was arrested by request of the Italian Republic in extradition process 1085 before the STF, which is Brazilian Supreme Court. Now, Brazilian Constitution determines that a foreign sentence can only be ratified and gain an exequatur (meaning executive force) after a simplified form of Due Process, in which the condemned has right to ample defense, and aim to prove that the sentence has vices (either of form or of content).

Well; that said, it’s useful to remember that Brazilian 1988 Constitution expressed the re-democratization process, and that caused influences, for the good and for the bad, to be on the text. For the bad, we have the political amnesty – and I agree entirely with Luiz here that we should have people from both sides of the political spectrum judged – but was a concession of realpolitiks. Truth is that the re-democratization was relatively painless with a more conscientious branch of generals sort of returning the power to the people, but they would have fought against that should the amnesty not have been granted. To prevent a bloody conflict, amnesty was the compromise.

I support we should revert it, but that topic is for another thread – and perhaps it’s true that the government wants only right wingers to pay, I’ll even give Luiz that (after all people on the government today were on the left-wing side back then), but it’s true for both sides, and we don’t see many outspoken right-wingers of the time calling for it to be lifted. So, in all fairness, they both kind are happy with the way things are, and nobody is really pressing hard for that to happen.

On the good side, it made the constitution embrace what it calls political pluralism, meaning the idea that no political ideal shall be repressed or be subjected to criminal charges, and this defense of pluralism includes the explicit determination that no one shall ever be deported for political crimes.

That is what Cesare Battiste is holding to; he is defining his actions as political, and as so, he has the right to have that perspective judged by the STF before the order is issued.

Now, upon his prison, he filed his defense in STF, and simultaneously sought to achieve executive/administrative political refugee status before the CONARE (national committee for refugees), a status which was denied unanimously.

However, as CONARE is but an organ of the Ministry of Justice, he made an administrative appeal to the Minister himself, who overruled the decision. Now this here is the final word of the executive branch save an unlikely intervention from the President himself (who already said agree with the Minister), and is the decision that is being broadcast in the press and causing the outrage.

It possibly is as bit political as Luiz says, but from my perspective, I can’t honestly tell if that is a good or a bad decision from a technical standpoint (more on that later), though I tend to have more trust in the CONARE due to its specialized body than in the politicized ministerial overruling. However, it’s worth of noting that Battiste condemnation is mainly based in the testimony from an alleged accomplice, Pietro Mutti, that allegedly regretted his actions and became a collaborator to the authorities, with the accused absent and lack of strong independent of the ties between Mutti and Battiste – hence the thesis of political persecution.

I’ll admit here and now that I don’t know the files of the Italian Process to comment on the veracity of this either way.

Now, to judge if that decision means that Brazil is rotten to the core, is something I’ll leave to the readers of this topic. I personally think it’s more of an anachronism than the pure evil of his diagnostics (Brazil would not have hold an Al Capone or a Ted Bundy, and there was a political component to Battiste’s actions, wheter that qualifies him as a political refugee or not – that quality obviously being what gained him Luiz’ animosity and the government sympathy). It’s also worth of note that the same Battiste also spend a lot of time in France, under protection of François Mitterrand (I guess France is also rotten to the core ;)).

Now, for the stuff the press ISN’T saying, is that while the Minister of Justice decision to grant political asylum is irreversible, he can still be deported for non-political crimes by the STF, should the court decide that his actions were not representative of political action, but just common criminality.

Hence, Battiste’s administrative pursuit had a political component – influence the court with his “status of refugee” – and a pragmatic one – the STF has jurisprudence saying that the administrative recognition of refugee status allows for the ending of incarceration originated by the foreign country.

So, he already applied for that, but the STF has denied on the grounds that such jurisprudence was formed when the status was recognized by technical decision from CONARE, not by political decision from the Minister of Justice. Hence, he is STILL in jail.

For all of you who want to check my facts, the following links are straight from the STF:

http://www.stf.jus.br/arquivo/cms/noticiaNoticiaStf/anexo/EXT1085GM.pdf

http://www.stf.jus.br/portal/processo/verProcessoAndamento.asp

http://www.stf.jus.br/portal/cms/verNoticiaDetalhe.asp?idConteudo=101844

Now, for the technical notes: Brazil’s extradition process is strict and demanding, and determine, first and foremost, that a person will not be submitted to political judgment, but only technical judgment, and that the kinds of crimes were common, not political.

In Battiste’s case, two of the murders are eminently political, and hence, cannot be grounds for extradition, under penalty of violation article 4º, X and article 5º, VIII of the Brazilian Constitution.

The problem are the two other murders, that are apparently common crimes. Thing is that, according to the ministers of the STF, the main grounds for denial is that the Italian criminal process has not followed the Due Process of Law: First, because the main proof against him is Mutti’s testimony, and not only Mutti alleges to have been tortured (what causes his testimony to be irrelevant under the doctrine of the fruit of the poisonous tree), it also constitutes a case of “Denounce for Advantage”, a situation in which the one makes the accusation gains more process advantages the more and more he denounces – making it untrustworthy as false accusations increase benefits as much as real ones.

Not only that, there are two technical problems – Brazil’s and Italy’s laws differ in key aspects. In Italy, a person can be condemned while absent from the bench. In Brazil, the process stays on hold as long as it takes for the accused to be under judicial custody. Therefore, the process that condemned Battiste may have been perfect for Italy, but it fails to meet Due Process conditions for Brazilian standards, and the STF has long and laborious jurisprudence of denying extraditions when the process of the condemnation does not meet at least the same standards of Brazilian law.

Finally, and most important, Brazil’s constitution expressly forbid any eternal penalty (article 5º, XLVII, “b”), and Battiste was condemned to life in prison. Unless Italy makes a diplomatic commitment to commute the penalty to 30 years tops (which is the hardest Brazilian Law admits), than again the consolidate jurisprudence of the STF forbids the deportation. Problem is that, apparently, Italy can’t do that with breaking its own laws, and that creates quite a conundrum.

Ok, people, just wanted to add a little perspective to what is going on, and perhaps making some sense of the decisions made by Brazilian authorities, since press is quite lacking in that respect.

Regards :).

perspective is fine apologetics makes you no better than any other apologist person.

If you're playing Devil's advocate here then like Kianu Reeves you're still going to hell if you get the paedophile or mass murderer off. ;)

I'm with luiz 100%. And I would be even if he made the worst arguments in history.

There are some things that are just indefensible.

Appeal to emotion or fact, we've all seen twelve angry men. :D
 
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