Brazil - Pedro II Thread

[skyclad]

I think people are overestimating the perceived "outrage" over Great Prophets having unique abilities, just as people overestimated the outrage over Great Prophets being named. We've known that Confucius and Saint Irenaeus are in the game for an entire day, yet no Confucianists or Catholics have formed any angry mobs outside of Firaxis' offices!

I would actually see it as a sign of great respect if Firaxis did the research for each of these religious figures and found theologically appropriate abilities for all of them. I'm sure I'm not the only one!

There is one, uh, "religion of peace", whose followers have been known to issue death threats and worse when the prophet for their very peaceful religion is depicted.

 

[Thormodr]

There is one, uh, "religion of peace", whose followers have been known to issue death threats and worse when the prophet for their very peaceful religion is depicted.

Yep. Wouldn't want Firaxis to suffer the same fate as Charlie Hebdo.

Anyway, the Brazil video showed a pretty nice Great Person system. MOAR cIV.

Brazil should be fun to play with that alone.

 

[Liex]

Argentina was definitely more of a world power around the time of his reign's end. By 1910, Argentina's economy was one of the largest in the world, ahead of Germany, Italy, and France. Its income per capita was at European levels and was four times that of Brazil's. Its leaders up until current era could not compete in notoriety or honour with the Perons, Juarez, Pancho Villa, Castro, Che, or Bolivar. Geopolitically (and politically) it went from 1821 until the 1960s without being important. Culturally, it has not produced authors as famous worldwide as Neruda, Borges, Garcia Marquez, or Vargas Llosa--nor artists that reach Frida and Diego. Brazil's claim to being in the game is modern Brazil, and that's not a problem. It is the most relevant and arguably most culturally influential (Mexico might be moreso) right now. It's just a very recent development.

You talk about Argentina's economic prosperity in the late 19th century but conveniently forgets (or simply don't know about) the mess it was before 1860. Before the fall of the Empire, Brazil was clearly hegemonic in South America, especially in the platine region. And Argentina never really translated its economic development into regional hegemony.

You also talk about how 19th century Mexico was more important than Brazil, when the former lost basically half of its territory through the 19th century...

 

[bite]

Moderator Action: Reminder this is not a Politics/History forum, please go to the World History section of the forum if you want to talk about that

 

[Ivan Hunger]

There is one, uh, "religion of peace", whose followers have been known to issue death threats and worse when the prophet for their very peaceful religion is depicted.

There's an easy solution to that problem. Just don't put that one guy in the game.

If they really want to play it safe, just don't put anybody from that religion in the game. There are plenty of other religions with less "peaceful" followers who won't care at all if some silly computer game is caricaturing figures from their history.

 

[ombak]

Glad to see Brazil in. Frankly I find lists and arguments of what civ "deserves" to be in vanilla vs. xpac 1 vs. xpac 2 vs. DLC or not at all... well, I find the arguments fun, but not to be taken too seriously.

These things are always somewhat arbitrary. Yes they probably want n that fit one criteria (era) and n for another (geography) but how they come to those decisions is surely a combination of a ton of factors. So many have been proposed I won't rehash everything.

Similarly, people have pointed out the Great Person ability is tied to Dom Pedro II. I think that's awesome. That, and Minas Geraes, a WWI Battleship (that remained in commission into the 50s according to wikipedia), are the kinds of things I love about Civ: Once they pick someone, they clearly do their research. Sure, some choices aren't perfect, but most choices they have to make don't have perfect answers anyways. But seeing this sort of research for your nation, or an old Civ you might like (be it because of the game or something else) is something fantastic. And of course it helps others learn about these places.

About Brazilian Great People now: Machado de Assis could top any list of greatest authors in Latin America. He might even top some for Western lit, among those who know him.

The thing is, Brazilian lit is a mostly separate entity from Latin American lit. Similarly our music and maybe even painting (I know nothing about painting so, I'll stick to lit and music). Brazil is a very isolated entity in many ways. This is a result of several things, from the language to the geography to protectionist and restrictive policies we've had for much of our history as a republic.

That's not to say there's no exchange or exposure at all, but that there are many reasons why quality art from Brazil might not be as well known.

In the end, picking this as an ability associated with Dom Pedro II is, to me, another point among so many that make Civ cool and always interesting to learn from. I hope most players take any and all civs this way rather than nitpick whether they should be in or not and who should be in first.

 

[Lord of War N02]

Vote for Pedro! I bet its because of Olympics that how they choose Brazil for Vanilla CIV 6

I'm happy to see Brazil in Vanilla CIV 6, other choice for Brazillian leaders could be Vargas or Pedro I(Pedro II's Father)

 

[darko82]

He looks weak and funny. Maybe that's why I am not a fan of Brazil. It's a pretty new civ in the world, too. Not my favourite. I prefer old, ancient, or medieval civs.

Leaders' faces should have more detail. No wrinkles, no detail on the face.

And his modern outfit. I do not like modern stuff in civ games.

 

[nunor]

Lula is a very polemic figure here in Brasil. Some segments of society still idolise him, some have mixed feelings towards his time in office, some utterly despise him.

Isn't that the same with Getulio Vargas, what with him being a populist military dictator and all?

 

[footslogger]

I think someone in the art department mistook the father for the son...

Going by that image of Pedro I, I'd say you are right.

 

[SMcM]

Not only the corruption scandals, but his legacy is proving to be rather short-lived, and even his famed political dexterity is being contested. He's still very popular among some groups (poor, uneducated and older people in most cases), but I think the average Brazilian gamer doesn't quite belong to those groups.

That sounds uncannily like Trump's voter demographics, and the people who voted for Brexit in my own country.

Why would Getulio Vargas be a good choice? I see a lot of people mentioning him, and he looks even worse.

 

[altayrneto]

That sounds uncannily like Trump's voter demographics, and the people who voted for Brexit in my own country.

Why would Getulio Vargas be a good choice? I see a lot of people mentioning him, and he looks even worse.

He was a beloved dictator (many Brazilians don't even know that he was a dictator...), starting some social projects, like assuring worker's rights, and stabilized the economy. But he also promoted censorship and pursuit people like the Military dictatorship that come later. Well, even this, many Brazilians don't even know...

 

[Amrunril]

There are a number of comments that the new Great Person bonuses seem underwhelming. They don't match up with Civ V Scientists and Engineers, but those were always outliers in terms of power level (even if human players tried to generate them almost exclusively) and presumably weren't the baseline used by the developers. The mid game bonuses seem perfectly reasonable when compared to Civ V merchants or artists.

Millenium gives the following details that the video doesn´t provide:

Magnanimous (Leader Ability): it is a 20% recoup

That seems like a very small number. Unless you're spending virtually all its gold and faith on GP, I have a hard time seeing that stack up against Quin's worker bonus or Teddy's 3 part leader ability.

Let's look at the Great Prophet list from Civ4. What if Abu Bakr have better abilities than Moses, for example? Some flame could be there.

I doubt there's actually much overlap between people who will notice whether Moses or Al Bakr has a more powerful ability and people who will care, but it still could be difficult to find individual abilities for each GP that would be both interesting and thematic without making light of that person's story.

As for not depicting Jesus or Mohammed, it's not about being afraid of reprisals by "religious" extremists, its about not wanting to offend the deeply held beliefs of hundreds of millions of people just to add another name to a list. It's an obvious choice both from a marketing perspective and from a human decency perspective.

 

[Acken]

Great people look better balanced to me here. We all know what great scientists did to civ5.

 

[Gangrin]

I am as confused about civ VI iteration of Brazil as i was about China in CiV. Well, first of all, i am also in camp "Brazil should be left for expansions", but it's mild complaint. I am EXTREMELY annoyed however at GP generation UA - and no, Pedro being all chummy with "great minds" does not cover it - almost any progressive leader in history did the same, but no luck for them. And finally, Battleship UU. Yes, because obviously Brazil is famous for its mighty fleets in Industrial-modern eras. USA, Britain and Japan? Nah, they are average at best Well, at least Firaxis did make Brazil to be more fun to play with since CiV, this is true

 

[demidyad]

That seems like a very small number. Unless you're spending virtually all its gold and faith on GP, I have a hard time seeing that stack up against Quin's worker bonus or Teddy's 3 part leader ability.

It also counts for normal GP points not just gold or faith. So effectively every GP except your first (and last) is 20% cheaper?

 

[mitsho]

There are a number of comments that the new Great Person bonuses seem underwhelming.

That seems intended and balanced by the fact that you maybe will get more Great Persons and can choose to a degree what bonus you want (micromanaging?).

That seems like a very small number. Unless you're spending virtually all its gold and faith on GP, I have a hard time seeing that stack up against Quin's worker bonus or Teddy's 3 part leader ability.

Let's just wait until we have played, right? But naturally, a UA is intended to be used so you should go for faith/religion/great people with Brazil. The ability should also be powerful in the early game where these resources are scarce. I'm also not clear if it works as well for normal GPP points, that would seem powerful as well.

 

[SupremacyKing2]

It also counts for normal GP points not just gold or faith. So effectively every GP after your first is 20% cheaper?

Yes, some of the GP points are refunded as well. So, it does make your GP cheaper. I think it is a UA that gets stronger as the game progresses. Obviously that discount in the classic era might not feel like a big deal. But let's say you get an extra 2 GP in the late game compared to other civs, that could be super good depending on which GP you get. And it is definitely a UA that you will want to milk for all its worth by really focusing on getting as many GP as possible. I definitely think that Brazil will be a fun civ to play.

 

[MarcoFurio]

I am very pleased with the choices for Brazil's Leader's ability, unique unit and also unique district/improvement.
I just disliked the civ ability linked to rainforests.

Thank you developers, for the first time I want to play with the civ to which I belong

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

I think the carnival district may actually be the big thing Brazil gets, being able to maybe permanently build amenities may be a huge thing as amenities effect everything.

Yes, some of the GP points are refunded as well. So, it does make your GP cheaper. I think it is a UA that gets stronger as the game progresses. Obviously that discount in the classic era might not feel like a big deal. But let's say you get an extra 2 GP in the late game compared to other civs, that could be super good depending on which GP you get. And it is definitely a UA that you will want to milk for all its worth by really focusing on getting as many GP as possible. I definitely think that Brazil will be a fun civ to play.

The more you invest into great people the more you get out of Pedro's ability. It will stack up over the game but the more investment the more it stacks.