Brazil

[Funak]

Normally I'd write an explanation of why I've chosen to bring this subject up, but I'm extremely biased in this case so instead of doing that I'll just ask you a simple question about this civ.

Have you played as Brazil, and if you have, did you actually enjoy yourself?

 

[Wodhann]

Brazil as a civ is tied directly into the tourism system as a whole, which I'm not sure how much has been looked at (and it's a big one). If it is still largely the same then we really need to talk about it in another thread. I would have started a discussion about it long ago, but I had so many hiatuses from civ and this forum that it just ended up not happening. But I do feel the tourism system needs work to become both more fun and viable.

By itself brazil has a very solid idea, though it's too much of a "play this if you want tourism" civ. It's good for one single thing and it may be too good at it compared to other civs.

 

[Stalker0]

I think the UA was cool until I played Austria....and then I just played Austria

 

[Funak]

My biggest problem with Brazil is that I just don't find it very fun. The UA is very one-dimensional and the UI just doesn't feel very interesting.

I did a few half-games as Brazil to see if I could make it work, mostly had to quit them halfway through because I was bored as hell (but again I'm not really holding that against Brazil, it isn't my type of civ), but what I noticed is that there just isn't a lot of jungle on most maps. I did a few games on a few different maps, Oval, continents, pangea, fractal. About half the time I didn't start near any jungle (which is weird actually, as they are jungle biased) and restarted, most other games I had a few jungle-tiles nearby, would maybe translate to seven to nine brazilwood camps after the luxuries and bananas were out of the picture. And while brazilwood camps are quite good, and getting nine of them is fine, it just didn't feel very fun to me.
Yes, sure I know, jungle tiles are great, they get bonuses from everywhere, and brazilwood camps are a lot better than junglemills, so that should make this a clear improvement, but I just didn't feel it.

I don't know if it is just Brazil trying to focus on too many things at the same time, jungle, tourism, golden ages; or if I just couldn't get a decent mapspawn, but I was just way too bored to play to a part where the Brazilian UA and UU actually kicks in.

Also worth mentioning that I feel like the brazilwood camp could unlock earlier than it currently is.

 

[Wodhann]

If brazil is boring a huge part of it is because tourism in general is boring. Tourism was a good idea compared to what we had before but in my view was released in a sort of prototype stage that is very weak as a victory type. Both from a fun and competitive standpoint.

 

[Funak]

If brazil is boring a huge part of it is because tourism in general is boring. Tourism was a good idea compared to what we had before but in my view was released in a sort of prototype stage that is very weak as a victory type. Both from a fun and competitive standpoint.

I wouldn't say I disagree with you, but I don't exactly agree with you either. Brazil's tourism-focus is boring because tourism just isn't a thing for the first half of the game, and percentage bonuses doesn't really change that.

Also I don't really know why, but unlike in vanilla, where when you finally got to your hotels, and airports and national tourism center, those tile-improvements with +3 culture (if you had a religion), provided a huge deal of your total tourism. Now they feel a bit meh (again this could just be me, that's why I started this thread by asking a question instead of telling what's wrong).

France and their chateau were in the exact same situation before France got completely reworked and now works great.
The tourism-game did kinda evolve a bit (even if Wodhann doesn't feel that way ) and France evolved with it, but Brazil just feels like they are stuck in the same spot.

 

[Funak]

I think this topic is important, but I think actually getting people to speak up is more important. So for no one have really defended Brazil, but I suspect there are more people than 3 on this forum, and someone probably have an opinion that haven't been represented this far.

However if no one wants to speak up I will start giving terrible suggestions for rework. You have been warned!

 

[Gazebo]

I wouldn't say I disagree with you, but I don't exactly agree with you either. Brazil's tourism-focus is boring because tourism just isn't a thing for the first half of the game, and percentage bonuses doesn't really change that.

Also I don't really know why, but unlike in vanilla, where when you finally got to your hotels, and airports and national tourism center, those tile-improvements with +3 culture (if you had a religion), provided a huge deal of your total tourism. Now they feel a bit meh (again this could just be me, that's why I started this thread by asking a question instead of telling what's wrong).

France and their chateau were in the exact same situation before France got completely reworked and now works great.
The tourism-game did kinda evolve a bit (even if Wodhann doesn't feel that way ) and France evolved with it, but Brazil just feels like they are stuck in the same spot.

Tourism can happen early game, and can give Brazil's trade routes a big boost. Don't discount that. Also, every point of early tourism you gain makes it easier to become influential later.

G

 

[Funak]

Tourism can happen early game, and can give Brazil's trade routes a big boost. Don't discount that. Also, every point of early tourism you gain makes it easier to become influential later.

But the fact that their tourism-bonus is reliant on golden ages, and is percentage-based, not static, makes this EXTREMELY unlikely.
I guess if you get a few artists from events and consume them for golden ages, you could get some benefit out of it, but then you'd give up the tourism from the artists.


Honestly I'm not really a huge fan of the UA at all, sure it got a theme, peaceful golden ages. But their only real synergy with it comes online really late with some tourism from hotelled brazilwood camps (If you actually find jungle ) and some golden age points from victory on their UU.
Brazil feels like they are trying to do a bit too many things, with the jungle focus the golden age focus, the tourism focus and the great people focus.


Yes sure I know, there are other civs that are more all over the place and still work and pay fine, and there are other civs that don't really do anything early on either, but for some reason I get stuck on Brazil.
And this comes from someone who enjoys peaceful play and tourism play.

 

[Finarvi]

[...]
Honestly I'm not really a huge fan of the UA at all, sure it got a theme, peaceful golden ages. But their only real synergy with it comes online really late with some tourism from hotelled brazilwood camps (If you actually find jungle ) and some golden age points from victory on their UU.
Brazil feels like they are trying to do a bit too many things, with the jungle focus the golden age focus, the tourism focus and the great people focus.
[...]

Good point. Maybe Brazil should be limitted to 2 things (maybe carnival could be lowered but work with every civ that you're not at war?).

For me Brazil is boring because it has no special bonus in early game. Maybe it's UB could be available much earlier but with limited bonus? Then jungle starts would be more interesting.

 

[Gazebo]

Good point. Maybe Brazil should be limitted to 2 things (maybe carnival could be lowered but work with every civ that you're not at war?).

For me Brazil is boring because it has no special bonus in early game. Maybe it's UB could be available much earlier but with limited bonus? Then jungle starts would be more interesting.

I'm fine with moving the Brazilwood Camp up. We could also give the Pracinha to Order (as the model for the Guerrilla unit) and give one of the removed UUs to Brazil.

G

 

[Funak]

I'm fine with moving the Brazilwood Camp up. We could also give the Pracinha to Order (as the model for the Guerrilla unit) and give one of the removed UUs to Brazil.

G

I'm not opposed to the Pracinha, actually, I think the unit is pretty cool when you actually get to it. Late-game UUs are naturally harder to balance because of how different the late-game combat is compared to the rest of the game. However I think the unit is in a pretty good spot at the moment, the abilities are strong and it unlocks a era earlier than the unit it replaces.


I'm more in the line of changing the purpose of the UI or the UA.

The UI currently, unlocks at machinery, starts out with +2 gold +1 production and unlocks +2 culture at two points in the tech-tree (from what I can remember).
Those two point are also located right next to each other, which probably should be adjusted. All in all, the UI isn't exactly horrible, but its passiveness along with the general passiveness of the UA and the late-game UU makes the entire early-game feel like a snore-fest. Either the yields and unlock time of the UI could, or the passiveness of the UA kinda needs to go, but since more people seem to disagree with the UA I would probably go that route instead.



The UA, it currently exists as a late-game tourism beast that can be chained and power-gamed into landing you in a tourismvictory usually over an era earlier than normally, along with a bonus to GP generation to compensate for if you accidentally start a golden age too early. Don't get me wrong here, the UA is an extremely powerful tool and a better constructed civ would probably benefit a lot from it. I mean hell, give the UA to Persia and they would probably end up overpowered (but I'm not exactly a fan of the Persian UA either ). However the way Brazil is constructed the UA just mostly does nothing for more than half the game and then suddenly you win. It just doesn't feel very fun to me at all.
I'm not saying that we need to scratch either the tourism component or the golden age component out of the UA, but that would probably be the best solution.

 

[Gazebo]

I'm not opposed to the Pracinha, actually, I think the unit is pretty cool when you actually get to it. Late-game UUs are naturally harder to balance because of how different the late-game combat is compared to the rest of the game. However I think the unit is in a pretty good spot at the moment, the abilities are strong and it unlocks a era earlier than the unit it replaces.


I'm more in the line of changing the purpose of the UI or the UA.

The UI currently, unlocks at machinery, starts out with +2 gold +1 production and unlocks +2 culture at two points in the tech-tree (from what I can remember).
Those two point are also located right next to each other, which probably should be adjusted. All in all, the UI isn't exactly horrible, but its passiveness along with the general passiveness of the UA and the late-game UU makes the entire early-game feel like a snore-fest. Either the yields and unlock time of the UI could, or the passiveness of the UA kinda needs to go, but since more people seem to disagree with the UA I would probably go that route instead.



The UA, it currently exists as a late-game tourism beast that can be chained and power-gamed into landing you in a tourismvictory usually over an era earlier than normally, along with a bonus to GP generation to compensate for if you accidentally start a golden age too early. Don't get me wrong here, the UA is an extremely powerful tool and a better constructed civ would probably benefit a lot from it. I mean hell, give the UA to Persia and they would probably end up overpowered (but I'm not exactly a fan of the Persian UA either ). However the way Brazil is constructed the UA just mostly does nothing for more than half the game and then suddenly you win. It just doesn't feel very fun to me at all.
I'm not saying that we need to scratch either the tourism component or the golden age component out of the UA, but that would probably be the best solution.

I'd rather not ditch the UA entirely. It works, and - while perhaps not the most 'fun' UA - it fills a cultural victory niche that no other victory fills. It also synergizes well with policies/beliefs/buildings that strengthen golden ages.

That said, if I were to make any changes to Brazil's UA, it'd be this:

• Give a base amount of tourism in the capital equal to 50% of your Capital's culture output. That way even early GAs gain something.
  
• Reduce the Golden Age Tourism bonus to 50% (so that Brazil doesn't just go crazy in the very late game).

I think moving the brazilwood camp back very early (ancient age) and stringing out its bonuses a bit more will be a huge boon to the civ.

 

[Funak]

I'd rather not ditch the UA entirely. It works, and - while perhaps not the most 'fun' UA - it fills a cultural victory niche that no other victory fills. It also synergizes well with policies/beliefs/buildings that strengthen golden ages.

I don't agree, but whatever.

That said, if I were to make any changes to Brazil's UA, it'd be this:

• Give a base amount of tourism in the capital equal to 50% of your Capital's culture output. That way even early GAs gain something.
  
• Reduce the Golden Age Tourism bonus to 50% (so that Brazil doesn't just go crazy in the very late game).

I was entertaining the thought of giving them hotel-effects, rather than just flat percentage tourism, kinda like what you said. I would however completely ditch the percentage bonus, and if GA mods needs to exists, tie this or at least part of this to the GA.
I still however think Persia fills the GA niche better, and I think evolving their UA past the current full war focus into something more balanced would improve upon that even more.

I think moving the brazilwood camp back very early (ancient age) and stringing out its bonuses a bit more will be a huge boon to the civ.

Yeah that's what I would have done as well

 

[Gazebo]

I don't agree, but whatever.


I was entertaining the thought of giving them hotel-effects, rather than just flat percentage tourism, kinda like what you said. I would however completely ditch the percentage bonus, and if GA mods needs to exists, tie this or at least part of this to the GA.
I still however think Persia fills the GA niche better, and I think evolving their UA past the current full war focus into something more balanced would improve upon that even more.

We can have two Golden Age focused civs.

I'm going to try the culture additive element during GAs for Brazil, see how it works.

G

 

[Finarvi]

[...]

• Give a base amount of tourism in the capital equal to 50% of your Capital's culture output. That way even early GAs gain something.
  
• Reduce the Golden Age Tourism bonus to 50% (so that Brazil doesn't just go crazy in the very late game).

[...]

I like it! Brazil will fill not only culture victory niche but also early tourism niche (which for this moment is almost non-existant). I believe that it will be more balanced, more focused on early game (thus more interesting) and synergize with UI.

 

[Wodhann]

Must... resist... itch... to attack the tourism system... *Moves up "try out a tourism game on civ" up the priority list a bit*


Anyway as a brazillian, this is what I would do to brazil.

UA: [Percent] of produced by cities gives to that city. When Carnival starts, all cities immediately enter Love the King day. Cities do not enter Love the King days normally and demand Carnival instead.​

Replace Pracinhas with:

Sambadrome: Replaces Stadium. Increases and reduces all unhappiness sources but crime. Has Great Work of Music slot. During Carnival, city's output increases by [percent].​

 

[Funak]

Anyway as a brazillian, this is what I would do to brazil.

UA: [Percent] of produced by cities gives to that city. When Carnival starts, all cities immediately enter Love the King day. Cities do not enter Love the King days normally and demand Carnival instead.​

Would this be instead of the normal effect or in addition to it?

Replace Pracinhas with:

Sambadrome: Replaces Stadium. Increases and reduces all unhappiness sources but crime. Has Great Work of Music slot. During Carnival, city's output increases by [percent].​

You're not going to get away with two UBs on one civ, it breaks the standardization formula




Anyways, as a non-Brazilian I would love to know what reason civ have for counting the Brazilian civilization as a cultural and tourism powerhouse. Keep in mind as civs don't really seem to count climate, you have to exclude sandy beaches and half-naked women, sorry

 

[Wodhann]

Would this be instead of the normal effect or in addition to it?

Instead (see Sambadrome)

You're not going to get away with two UBs on one civ, it breaks the standardization formula

One is an unique improvement, and another is an unique building... Wait, has this been changed?

 

[Funak]

One is an unique improvement, and another is an unique building... Wait, has this been changed?

Yeah, Buildings wonders and improvements counts as UB.
Military units, civilian units and great people counts as UU.
One UU one UB per civ, that was the standardization