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Brazil

Discussion in 'Leader Balance' started by Funak, Sep 1, 2015.

  1. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Its been so long since I played Brazil, but for their brazilwood camps you really need it to be in jungle/forest AND adjacent to a lux? That seems awfully restrictive
     
  2. amateurgamer88

    amateurgamer88 Emperor

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    It feels like a lot of UI that are terrain dependent are affect a lot by the changes to the map. This one feels very rng dependent and it can literally determine how Brazil will perform for the rest of the game.
     
  3. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    So playing through as Brazil (its been awhile) and while I conceptually like Brazil, I can't help but compare it to Arabia. And I feel that Arabia is simply better in every possible way. Neither has a terrific UU but Arabia's is still battle competent. Both are excellent at CV....but Arabia is also very good at science. Arabia has way more Tall GP support. Brazil's UI is very cool but also very terrain situational, where as Arabia's bazaar is a solid and staple building that you will get early, and it will provide you good bonuses all game long. Every time I play Brazil in the back of my head I'm going "why am I not just playing Arabia?"

    So let me do a dive.

    Deep Look at Brazil
    Spoiler :


    UA One of the hidden features of Brazil is the -50% needs during Carnival. On high difficulties, one of the issues you often run into is the happy wall after growth. You get into a WLTKD, you hit a growth spurt, grow one pop, and then you hit a wall of unhappiness that slams your growth back down. As a consequence, many WLTKDs deliver far less growth bonus than it might look on paper. Brazil nicely avoids this problem, and I would argue they are a pretty good "growth" civ. Beyond that, obviously the +25% culture is very good, but its also hyper focused. Brazil is a brittle civ, it doesn't have the well rounded ness of many other civs, nor does it have the military might to compensate by going on conquests.

    UI: Brazilwood camps are a fun and unique aspect of Brazil, but very terrain specific. Unlike other UIs which can be more of a puzzle to see how many you can fit on given terrain, for Brazil its more a question of "can I build my camps at all?" The right terrain and your golden, the wrong one....and your out of luck. For context, in the last game I just tried with them (before playing my current game with them), I had two camps total across my entire empire.

    UU: The UU is a neat concept, but its also very niche. The unit is not a great combat one, even taking Survivalism I and II along with the 3 you get....they are not defensively strong units at this point in the game. The yields they give are solid, but not subject to city multipliers and are often short lived. Once the exploration phase is over...all of your UU luster is gone. Further, they upgrade into paratroopers, which well good remain a niche unit....so your not getting any secondary boosts from your UU either, like you do with many other civs.

    So in thinking about the problem, here is my focus for changes:

    • Utilize Brazil's "growth power" to solve the UI issue and give benefits for the strong growth Brazil is capable of.
    • Adjust the Brazilwood camp to offer a little bit more well roundedness to the civ.
    • Upgrade the UUs defensive capabilities just a bit, to make it workable as a defensive unit. Focus on the pillage power that scout units have, to provide a combat niche that also gives Brazil a more unique way to war.
    • Ultimately we are going mainly for tweaks here. I like Brazil conceptually I think they just need a little bit of boost in a few places and little more well roundedness.


    THE CHANGES!!!

    UA: Has a unique WLTKD, "Carnival" that gives +25% :c5culture: and -50% :c5unhappy:. When a golden age begins, 40% of :c5goldenage: converted into :c5gold: and :tourism:, and all cities begin 10 turns of carnival. A city spawns a brazilwood resource at founding and at every 8 :c5citizen: (similar to Indonesia except gradually instead of all at city founding).

    UI: Brazilwood camps have a base yield of +1 :c5science: (instead of +1 :c5gold:). Gains +1 :c5culture: at Physics (instead of +2 :c5culture:).

    UU: Base CS increased from 19 to 20. Gains pillage for free promotion. Flag Bearers promotion grants yields when you reveal a tile or pillage a tile.


    The Summary
    • Brazilwood is no longer subject to the whims of the terrain. It is now a resource you more directly control with your growth, aka playing to one of Brazil's strengths. Growth is good with Brazil!!!!
    • Brazilwood provides a little bit of science and a little less culture overall, just to balance out the resources a bit. Brazil is still very culture heavy, this just shift the scales a touch.
    • The Bandeirantes with Survivalism I and II now has a 30 base defensive CS, the same as the Tercio with shock I and II. The Tercio is still the superior unit in open ground and against mounted units (and while fortified), but the UU does have a built in march, so we have some equivalency, which allows for a player to use their UU more defensively. Further, the unit is now a good pillager, provides another tool in the box. You can send your UU on the big scout for yields, or enter a pillage war with neighbors for some yields. The UU still ultimately doesn't have a lot of longevity, but now at least its more directly useful and has multiple ways it can contribute to the civs success.
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2021
    DeAnno and CrazyG like this.
  4. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I think Brazil works better with progress/authority than with tradition, just because tradition doesn't really need brazilwood camps. He is overall unimpressive though.
     
  5. Legen

    Legen King

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    Brazil isn't really a growth civ, mostly due to the jungle bias. You'll have a really hard time growing much in that kind of terrain, unless you started with a food-oriented monopoly in your surroundings.

    Brazilwood camps had their restrictions changed over time. It used to be jungle only, later expanded to forest and jungle, but it resulted in lots of camps everywhere. It got restricted to adjacent to luxuries and not adjacent to another camp, and I think it could go without the luxury condition, staying with just the latter.

    I consider Brazil to be way stronger than Arabia for a CV due to the ability to convert GAP into tourism. The thing about this mechanic is that the GAP pool isn't fully depleted when a golden age starts, it only loses the amount needed, with the rest carrying over for the next GA. Once you get permanent golden ages, you can store large amounts of GAP that keep carrying over to the next, making them count twice, thrice and so on as the exceeding GAP carries over. With proper use of great artists, you can gain massive gold and tourism bombs every 20 or so turns.

    Due to the above mechanic, I also find Brazil to benefit way more from Tradition for the GAP upon great person birth and the synergy with Artistry, than from Progress and Authority. These two can't maintain permanent golden ages nearly as well, and end not carrying over that much GAP when they get a GA chain. There were old patches in which Progress could compete with Tradition, but nowadays, I find Tradition way stronger for this civ.

    I like the Bandeirantes for the yields, but I think it should have at least the ability to enter rival borders. Combat abilities would be nice, but the unit really shines for being well timed for the Renaissance Era, which has plenty of key cultural world wonders. Having your science, culture and gold output doubled during this era helps a lot to outcompete other civs for these wonders.
     
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  6. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    The UA is already 4 lines as it is. Having the brazilwood spawn off it would require cutting something else just to avoid pouring over the UI in the civ select screen. I’m not exactly up on my Brazilian numerology, but 8:c5citizen: seems kind of arbitrary and not based on anything? An event triggering every 8 citizen births is identical to my China rework.

    having the unique infrastructure just improve a resource spawned by the Trait would feel like Brazil doesn’t even have a unique infrastructure. It would feel like playing Indonesia, but with 1 resource instead of 3, and no Candi, or anything to replace it. If brazilwood were moved to the Trait, it should just be improved by plantations and free up a slot.

    Bandeirantes only having 19CS feels like an oversight, like their lower vision range that only got changed this version. It could stand to be as high as 22. I don’t really get the point of them being able to build camps/plantations/brazilwood. I have plenty of workers by medieval to do that, it doesn’t seem to actually add anything to the unit other than as a pure flavor thing.

    A unique promotion table that gives yields on pillage would be new code, but new code that I would very much like to see added at some point.
     
  7. azum4roll

    azum4roll Emperor

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    The UI restriction can just be changed to adjacent to any resource, but not another Brazilwood Camp. (keeping the tree requirement)
     
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  8. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I agree. I think the counter-argument is that it ends up being identical in placement rules to the Mayan Kuna though.

    This is a very clever use of this interaction.
     
  9. tothePAIN

    tothePAIN King

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    Brazil's wide culture is better than Arabia's. The culture boost also triggers off WLTKD, not GAs, so there's a minigame of triggering WLTKD for the bonus culture.

    I don't find them impressive but I don't find them weak either.
     
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  10. stii

    stii King

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    I think the yields for the camps are fine it is +1g +2 culture at base. It is just that sometimes you get a few and sometimes loads. But there are other UI that have similar issues so maybe it is fine.
     
  11. azum4roll

    azum4roll Emperor

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    It can happen for everyone who relies on a start bias, since biases aren't guaranteed. Maybe we can add a bias priority (extra variable) to each civ to help the ones who absolutely need their biases? This will be a huge rewrite of the assign starts code though. I can probably do it if someone teaches me how to add the variable.
     
  12. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    Looking at the physical characteristics of Brazilwood. There have been failed attempts to use Brazilwood as ornamental plants in the Brazilian cities. They don't tolerate maritime winds and salty air.

    Maybe the tile conditions could be non-coastal Forest/Jungle, and not adjacent to another Brazilwood Camp.
    Or, if it's not possible to specifically avoid coast. The tree requires well-drained soil, so maybe it could avoid freshwater
    Or it could do both

    No fresh water might not actually be any easier than only next to a luxury, but at least it's based on something?
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2021
  13. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Ok so lukewarm reception to my UA changes so let’s consider the other stuff to see if there is any desire for some change.

    Badereintas: So we have two main changes here.
    • Strength increase (I said 20, PAD thought we could go even higher to 22).
    • Gain flag bearer yields on tile pillage
    UI: I don’t think we want to do anything drastic with start bias, that’s a whole new kettle of fish. So the simplest change without replicating the Kuna is to allow the camp adjacent to ANY jungle/forest resource (and no adjacency to other brazilwood).

    It doesn’t solve the problem in all cases but does help a significant number of them, as most forest and jungle areas are going to have a decent mix of bonus resources. And I would wager that would be a simple enough change, so I’d support it
     
  14. phantomaxl1207

    phantomaxl1207 King

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    You get so many yields from Bandeirantes it's insane that I don't care if they are bad at fighting. I think it's 3 :c5gold:,:c5culture:, and:c5science: per Tile discovered, it allows you to power through the Renaissance Era. It's hard to estimate how much the Bandeirantes brought in from exploring. I was able to have about 10K Gold after all the exploring despite never having more than 100 GPT. Being able to make Forts and having Suvivalism III at base does make them rather tanky, though it's not their fault that Recon promotions don't help more with combat. CS to 20 is a good change.

    I wasn't able to get too many Brazilwood Camps, the new restrictions are a bit much. That was just the lack of Forest/ Jungle in my starting position more so. I only have 4 Camps at this moment in the game.

    I still find the Brazil's UA the strongest by far for CV. It scales so well into the late game.

    Here I am using 4 Bandeirantes to get 315 :c5science:,:c5gold:, and :c5culture: in this turn. And there is still a lot of ocean left to explore.

     
  15. AndreyK

    AndreyK Prince

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    I think it's better for Brazilwood camps to drop resource adjacency, leave no adjacency to other brazilwood.
     
  16. tothePAIN

    tothePAIN King

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    I'm playing a Brazil game now. I think Brazil is fine. Brazil's only early game is its UI, the brazil wood, which can be hit or miss. But the UU gives thousands of gold, culture, and science in the mid game, and the UA is immense if you can get the golden ages going and get any sort of synergy with WLTKD (Carnival). @Stalker0 compared Brazil to Arabia and said that Arabia is better at science, which is true, but Brazil can have +25% culture and growth running at all times with WLTKD. Also, since Brazil doesn't suffer happiness problems, Brazil can actually make use of the WLTKD and grow. Plus, Brazil gets tons of gold and tourism from golden ages. They're a late booming civ but they're strong enough, if you can get through the early game.
     
  17. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Yeah I think the AI heard me because the last two games Brazil has been the steamrolling runaway. so perhaps this is just my lack of experience with the civ.
     
  18. azum4roll

    azum4roll Emperor

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    They can be really bad at war with their current tendency to spam their UU until it's obsolete.
     
  19. tothePAIN

    tothePAIN King

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    All of the AIs do this - they spam their UU, even when its obsolete and gets one shotted.
     
  20. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    I modded the tile requirements for Brazilwood Camps to be forest/jungle without access to fresh water. I feel I can tie that placement back to the biology of the Pernambuco tree better than the current adjacent to luxuries requirement

    Here is a picture of AI Brazil's empire on Communitu_79. Looks like they are missing 2 placements near Brasilia and could have planned Fortaleza better, but they're doing pretty good with it. Is this too much/too little compared to what people think they should be doing?
    Spoiler :
    upload_2021-6-6_9-2-3.png
     

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