Breaking island isolation via Liberalism??

[gavenkoa]

I am taking Optics ASAP to enable tech trade. It requies Machinery on the way, which enables Printing Press. I can bulb Education, but because of Machinery next bulbing tech is PrinPress, not Liberalism (( So I have to avoid Alphabet which is PP requirement.

Alpha allows convertion of hammers to beakers - at T100 I have all buildings and as I safe from invasion I don't want to pay for military upkeep (especially of weak early units) - I have to make cities somehow busy. So I plan to use more costly path - Math + Currency.

Overall tech path is some food tech, then Bronze Working for rapid city spamming and Pottery for keeping workers busy / reserch rate high, then Writing for Great Scientists for future bulbs. Then Math/Currency to make chopping efficient & cities busy, and to Optics for tech trade.

Next step is to get Liberalism prerequisits, Philosophy via Code of Law, Paper via Civil Service.

One early GS goes for Academy (it speeds up Currency), another for Education, yet another for Liberalism. If we buy Optics or tech it we will have Astronomy.

It is nice to cut research efforts by trading for some techs, like Code of Law, Paper Civil Service, Optics on the way, so it is essential to break isolation early while still having trade advantage. This rises questuon about self-teching Currency (to make post T100 cities busy) and Monarchy (to increase research rate breaking low happy 4/5/6 pop limit).

How do you break isolation? What are major detours in tech path (I find Currency & Monarchy important)? Do you skip detours? Great Lighthouse might offset weak trade route income...

Do you bulb Astro straight without Liberalism? Is it better path?

 

[jorissimo]

@Izuul posted a great isolation guide in the high production low commerce start thread.

 

[gavenkoa]

@Izuul posted a great isolation guide in the high production low commerce start thread.

Found:

Post in thread 'High Production Low Commerce Start'

Mar 21, 2025

Here are some general pointers for isolation.

• You should know within about 10-12T that you're in isolation. It's extremely rare not to meet any AI in that time frame unless you're isolated
• Once you realize you are isolated the first order of business is dealing with barbarians. Based on my experience in this Emperor game, they are pretty non-threatening at this level, but on Immortal and, in particular, Deity they can be extremely dangerous on iso maps because there aren't any AI units running around to help spawn bust and kill them. After doing a little initial scouting, I like...

• Izuul

• 

 

[gavenkoa]

Mentioned discussion concentrate on bulbing Optics, trading for Calendar and bulbing Astro.

The path with Code of Law, Philosophy, Civil Service, Paper to Education + Liberalism is much longer so seems suboptimal.

Overseas trade routes income is insane in comparison to initial +1G per city (I expect 3-4G per route at this time). Also you trade happiness resources and for money per turn. Getting Astro is a highest priority. Liberalism significantly delays it ((

 

[Fippy]

You can mix things up significantly by playing without tech trading, if the standard path bores you.
Optics bulb was just a possible option for PHI leaders.

 

[gavenkoa]

I tried strait Astronomy bulb with detour to Currency. Collected gold before I settled 1st GS for Academy allowed to research Math & Currency at 100%. Also I kept an empire at size of 4 cities, versus previous attempts of 8-10.

As a result I've got Astro around T140. AIs traded missing Alpha & Calendar. And I delayed Astro bulb waiting for 3rd GS on Aesthetic which helped with Curr to buy Alpha & Calendar and to win Music.

Keeping empire small drastically helped to stay tech relevant.

 

[jorissimo]

detour to Currency

Unnecessary and delays Astro.

I settled 1st GS for Academy

This delays Astro (unless you're philosophical).

Also I kept an empire at size of 4 cities, versus previous attempts of 8-10.

That's the idea! You can go up to 5-6 though, depending on the land.

And I delayed Astro bulb

Never ever do this.

Keeping empire small drastically helped to stay tech relevant.

Again, that's the idea!

You're starting to get it, but you should be even more radical about Astro. It's a game changer: tech trades for civics (= happiness), trade routes for commerce, happiness resources, they instantly catapult you out of oblivion. It's not abnormal to instantly get +50% bpt out of Astro. I can think of very little that would justify delaying it even by 1 turn.

 

[Nick723]

Unnecessary and delays Astro.

This delays Astro (unless you're philosophical).

That's the idea! You can go up to 5-6 though, depending on the land.

Never ever do this.

Again, that's the idea!

You're starting to get it, but you should be even more radical about Astro. It's a game changer: tech trades for civics (= happiness), trade routes for commerce, happiness resources, they instantly catapult you out of oblivion. It's not abnormal to instantly get +50% bpt out of Astro. I can think of very little that would justify delaying it even by 1 turn.

I would counter this a bit, from my experience with isolation games. Early Astro is a good starting point, however…

Often I find that I struggle more with a small empire and an early Astro date than a larger more developed one and a later date. Sure Astro helps a lot, but I think the thing to really look at is your attack date. Typically I find that attacks from iso can be production rather than tech constrained, ie. you need the empire to build the units not just get you the techs.

 

[jorissimo]

I would counter this a bit, from my experience with isolation games. Early Astro is a good starting point, however…

Often I find that I struggle more with a small empire and an early Astro date than a larger more developed one and a later date. Sure Astro helps a lot, but I think the thing to really look at is your attack date. Typically I find that attacks from iso can be production rather than tech constrained, ie. you need the empire to build the units not just get you the techs.

I think mass-workshopping the post-Optics cities paired with Caste System could be a solution? But I'm no expert on this

 

[Izuul]

Get the best commerce spots up early and save the production cities for post-Optics. You can settle them immediately upon finishing Optics. Production cities usually come online and contribute fairly quickly, and should be ready by the time you have the necessary tech to launch an attack.

It's not a perfect solution, but Iso isn't a perfect situation so you're really just trying to make the best of what you have.

This ofc is assuming you even have city spots to save. That's really a good problem to have vs the alternative. There's an old DeGaulle game (NC 208) that's still floating around on the 1st page here where you only have room for 3 decent cities on your island. I don't want to spoil too much, but that's a game where very fast Optics and Astro are possible, but you are then left trying to figure out what to do from there.

Thread 'Noble's Club 208: De Gaulle of France'

Jun 6, 2019

The Nobles' Club series started out as a way for Noble-level (and below) players to improve their game. Most of the original participants now play at much higher levels, so this has become a way for advanced players to help others learn to play better. You can play your own game at any level and with any mod, but it would be nice to comment on the games of other players and give them advice.

Our next leader is De Gaulle of France, whom we last played in NC CXVIII...I think . I searched for the last NC game with De Gaulle but couldn't find the topic...

• AcaMetis
• Replies: 161
• Forum: Civ4 - Strategy & Tips

• 

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

If you skip machinery then the great scientist can research part of liberalism.

But why take unnecessary risks? On Pangaea you can see what technologies everyone has. In isolation you are gambling.

 

[Nick723]

If you skip machinery then the great scientist can research part of liberalism.

But why take unnecessary risks? On Pangaea you can see what technologies everyone has. In isolation you are gambling.

Furthermore, skipping machinery is unfortunately not possible in iso (on the optics route).

Main question post Astro is whether to take civil service, generally a helpful tech but closes the chemistry bulb path.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

If you have philosophical leader and lots of food, you can get your 3rd great scientist before researching machinery. Save gold, research everything else, then get machinery and optics at 100% rate. You will need aesthetics, so let's hope you have marble to build wonders, fail, and then get gold.

No, I do not think this is a good strategy. I don't like it. I am just explaining how it can be done.

 

[Tecumseh1]

I find the currency detour is rarely worth it in isolation. And focus on bulbing Astro asap and not worry about lib so early.

 

[Fippy]

I really like the capital Academy if it's good (or minimum decent)..
unless there's really no way to run scientists in 3 cities (one can stop after 17t at least).

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Second thought: the question is unclear.

There are three types of isolation: 1 ocean tile, 2 ocean tiles, 3 ocean tiles.

For the 2 ocean tile case, where tech trade and espionage points get through, but no units, resources, or trade routes, I support getting astronomy via liberalism.

 

[jorissimo]

Main question post Astro is whether to take civil service, generally a helpful tech but closes the chemistry bulb path.

Does it though? According to this thread, Chemistry is higher on the bulb list than Paper. But it could be outdated.

 

[Izuul]

CS screws up the Astro bulb, but not the Chemistry bulb. If you want to bulb Chemistry you need to avoid Paper. Once you get Paper you will bulb Education and Printing Press.