Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
I am currently using an old laptop that wont run C2C
Breaking Save Game Compatibility for v37
- Thread starter Thunderbrd
- Start date
Surely this must depend on map size. Huge or much larger maps may be no problem.
But standard or Large size maps - very few animals of each type spawn before the map is covered by culture. On standard at epc speed you have about 400 turns. Apart from some isolated regions on the poles.
Just re-read this, so must ask the questions.
I'm also refining impassable features/terrains
1. Will this have an effect on pre-made maps?
2. If not changed will this significantly reduce spawning?
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
When ever I do stuff with the animals I also refine which areas they can move into. It does not affect spawns per se but it can result in a lot of animals stuck in the plot they spawn in. This is especially true in the polar regions.
@Toffer90 I was working my way through the sea critters but only got as far as the sharks, and small fish. I don't think any of the others have been corrected for the new terrains.
@Toffer90 I was working my way through the sea critters but only got as far as the sharks, and small fish. I don't think any of the others have been corrected for the new terrains.
I have not read the whole thread - yet (if I do not post now I will forget.)
Only 2 <spawn groups> exist, Lion_Packs (new unit) and Wolf_Packs (this only spawns 3 wolfs instead of 1 [not a pack]).
so maybe than can be removed - just increase the spawn rate of the original animal.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Allrighty then... lots to discuss! *Cracks Knuckles*
2) Keep in mind the rule of thumbs Toffer suggested that I do agree with...
Carnivore/Predator=Aggressive and Herbivore/Scavenger=Passive.
As much as this can be achieved anyhow. I'd also like to add:
-If an animal is the common prey of a stronger carnivore then it should probably be in the Passive group.
-Keep in mind that this setting doesn't actually directly influence the aggression or passiveness of the animal but does represent the ability of one animal to attack another. Animals cannot attack those from it's own 'team' so sometimes that can be a factor to consider.
So I think you've got a good start but you may find a few spots in there that these guidelines can help to resolve. Examples from your own list of unsures:
The flow of subdued animals will probably not be as strong after all these adjustments have been made, making each captured a little more of a prize.
And you're right on track with the Buffalo. And yes, the water buffalo is actually very UN aggressive.
@Toffer: A little feedback by select lines:
[/SPOILER]
I'm going to have to figure out in the code how to get some animals to conditionally be allowed to spawn inside borders... currently the spawn code itself I believe cuts those plots out of contention.
And the ability for animals to enter or spawn inside borders at all should probably be a game option (not hard to establish that the tag for animals to be allowed to enter borders be optional.)
I THINK specific unit infos CAN have the tag that allows them to enter borders and that could be the filter for spawning within them as well.
I'm not thinking bison would necessarily. There aren't many truly wild bison out there unless they are on preserve lands and in which case they are likely more represented by the plot's bonus.
Black bears, however, can get to scavenging among people and do a pretty good job keeping a low daytime profile and not attacking (unless infected with rabies) so maybe the very low aggression setting is enough.
GREAT work guys! Looks like my next step - post debugging - should be to work out a game option that allows specified critters to spawn within and some to enter borders. I'm also thinking that maybe 2 reasons to enter borders would allow them to move or spawn inside improved territory while 3 reasons (and defensive only) would enable them to blend into cities - though that could be done with the city blending tag we have. Pigeons are quite at home in urban areas.
1) I'm going to let Toffer be the final arbiter of these determinations. From here, he can also include the file but if you get me your Sourceforge username in PM I'll get you on the SVN so you can put this stuff in directly. I'll give you the minimal instructions you should have for that as well. It's really neat to see ya come out of your shell a bit and get involved with the actual modding side!
2) Keep in mind the rule of thumbs Toffer suggested that I do agree with...
Toffer said:
Carnivore/Predator=Aggressive and Herbivore/Scavenger=Passive.
As much as this can be achieved anyhow. I'd also like to add:
-If an animal is the common prey of a stronger carnivore then it should probably be in the Passive group.
-Keep in mind that this setting doesn't actually directly influence the aggression or passiveness of the animal but does represent the ability of one animal to attack another. Animals cannot attack those from it's own 'team' so sometimes that can be a factor to consider.
So I think you've got a good start but you may find a few spots in there that these guidelines can help to resolve. Examples from your own list of unsures:
- Glyptodon: A fiercely capable defender of its life and the lives of its 'pack'. They were, however, Herbivores. Thus Passive group.
- Tarrantulla: Although Tarrantulas vary quite a bit by individual species types, they represent most stalking, leaping, hunting spiders. They are ultimately predators. HOWEVER, they are NOT predators of any animals we have in the game, usually feeding on insects and small rodents and at times some birds. But they ARE prey to snakes and raptor birds, of which we have quite a few. So they would probably be better suited to being prey in our game scheme. Passive Group.
- Thylacin: An early predatorial animal related to cats and dogs if I recall correctly. Clearly, this would make the creature more of an Aggressive group creature. However, IF research would show that they were primarily Scavengers then a good argument is there to make them Passive. But I'm thinking probably Aggressive group at the moment.
- DartFrog: Not a predator of anything but insects we don't represent at the game level. They punish those who feast on them but that'll be addressed with poison modding coming up. Passive.
- Quoll: This is actually a nocturnal predator of a fairly fierce variety, so long as you're as small or smaller than they are. This could mean that it's better as an Aggressive group, however, I don't know for sure that they would feed on anything we represent in the game. If they do then Aggressive. Nor am I sure if they are prey for many other species. If we have animals in the game that are their predators they must avoid then Passive. A little research would be needed here. Either one could apply.
- Fennec fox: Sure polar bears and such may go after them but they are certainly a predator. We need to get rabbits in the game at some point soon I think - we have them but they're currently dedicated to the Killer Rabbit unit... I'd set them as an Aggressive in preparation for this. They'd also go after birds so they do have prey around.
Part of what you're experiencing already is that even with aggression taken into the equation, animals aren't COMPLETELY stupid. I've given them at least the slightest ability to judge an opponent in their new AI. Even a highly aggressive animal with overwhelming odds against it would not tend to attack. Generally speaking, this means animals are given a 5% odds minimum to validate an intended attack.Observation from starting a New game with 9125 this morning.
Old way for animals early game: you could put a wanderer and ST together and set them in a well defended tile close to your city set the Wanderer on Trap Hunting and ST on Build Fortifications and amd animals would come attack you pair. Most killed but some subdued, with the occasional stronger animal killing 1 of the pair. Of course once you got Clubman you replaced the ST and once tracker the wanderer, so on for each new level. You would also build more pairs to cover all sides of your city for max effect. And a pair or to to move further out when close hunting slowed down.
New way of for animals: old way not as effective by alot. Stationary pairs the animals for the most part will not attack. Only Certain highly aggressive will, ex. Bengal Tiger Cassowary. Ex. ones that will Not Str 4 Rhinos, Elephants.
You now have to constantly move your pair about until you build up enough True hunting promos from your victories. Subduing is way way down (this is all early game and all before tribalism to keep your timeframe in reference).
Certain animals when killed now give a Mil Captive! Kookabora bird comes to mind but there are several others I didn't write down.
The flow of subdued animals is very much decreased, whether by design or not.
When I get a chance today to play more I'll report more. Especially the animals that give a Human Mil Captive, which I'm sure is not intended.
JosEPh
The flow of subdued animals will probably not be as strong after all these adjustments have been made, making each captured a little more of a prize.
Wild Boars can be terribly territorial and feisty. High aggression but it's not a predator itself so it makes sense to make it a passive group creature but give it some attitude with iAggression.
And you're right on track with the Buffalo. And yes, the water buffalo is actually very UN aggressive.
By pointing this out you showed me that the schema needed a quick adjustment to make <Title/> not required. My next commit will have this fix here very soon.
Nothing in Australia isn't aggressive is it? lol. I mean, y'all have poisonous octopus, mugging bands of kangaroos, the deadliest snakes and spiders in the world, a host of nasty large reptiles, poison spined duck billed creatures in the wetlands and... drop bears. You can't catch a break!
@Toffer: A little feedback by select lines:
Code:
This shows my thinking when I adjusted Animals_CIV4UnitInfos.xml
bOnlyDefensive=1 & bAnimalIgnoresBorders=1 in UnitInfo - bNeutralOnly=0 in SpawnInfo
Defensive Only - Unrestricted Spawning:
PASSIVE:
African Elephant....... AFRICANELEPHANT........ iAggression = 2(Agreed)
Badger................. BADGER................. iAggression = 0(Strongly disagree... badgers have a reputation for being overtly hostile. I'd give them a 4 at least! I know if they are given a wide berth they might not go after you but they have a bad enough attitude that they deserve a little aggression to reflect that in the game at least.)
American Black Bear.... BLACKBEAR.............. iAggression = 1(Agreed)
Wild Boar.............. BOAR................... iAggression = 1(I'd set this more to a 7... they can be very likely to attack.)
Cassowary.............. CASSOWARY.............. iAggression = 0(From what I've heard, these birds can actually be pretty territorial. I might rate them a 2 but I've not confirmed this with independent research.)
Crow................... CROW................... iAggression = 0(Crows are unlikely to gain much in XP and on rare occasion when they get it in mind they don't like you that's pretty much it... I've been divebombed by a few myself. They would leave the fight as fast as they enter it but they don't fear people as much as you'd think they would. I'd give them a 1.)
AGGRASSIVE:
Ussuri dhole........... DHOLE.................. iAggression = 0 (Assassinate ANTELOPE, BOVINE, CERVID, EQUINE & SWINE) (I think these CAN be on occasion dangerous. Maybe 1)
Dingo.................. DINGO.................. iAggression = 0 (Assassinate MARSUPIAL)(These can definitely be dangerous - I'd at least give them a 2.)
Ethiopian Wolf......... EWOLF.................. iAggression = 0 (Assassinate RODENT)(I don't know much about them but I'd suspect a 1 may be in order unless they are terribly timid canines.)
Can Attack - Stealth Defense - Only neutral Spawning:
PASSIVE:
Cave Bear.............. CAVEBEAR............... iAggression = 0 (I'm thinking these creatures would've been very very fiercely territorial but they would also have been quite confident so a 2 maybe?)
Auroch................. COW.................... iAggression = 4 (Defensive Only)(I get it... mad cow = raging bull)
AGGRASSIVE:
Brown Bear............. BEAR................... iAggression = 1 (Assassinate: BOVINE, CERVID, GOAT & SWINE)(Brown bears aren't as timid as Blacks... I'd up it one or two.)May I propose that SB I removes a cause to be unable to attack, SB II gives the ability to ignore cultural borders, and SB III gives them bStampede (a completely reckless form of onslaught)
Not fully following you here. Break it down how the defaults would be setup first.
This gives some more strategic considerations as to whether to give the SB promos to your animals at all, particularly trained cat unit types. I like it.
I'm going to have to figure out in the code how to get some animals to conditionally be allowed to spawn inside borders... currently the spawn code itself I believe cuts those plots out of contention.
And the ability for animals to enter or spawn inside borders at all should probably be a game option (not hard to establish that the tag for animals to be allowed to enter borders be optional.)
I THINK specific unit infos CAN have the tag that allows them to enter borders and that could be the filter for spawning within them as well.
Probably good to consider this. Some animals do blend well with people.
I'm not thinking bison would necessarily. There aren't many truly wild bison out there unless they are on preserve lands and in which case they are likely more represented by the plot's bonus.
Black bears, however, can get to scavenging among people and do a pretty good job keeping a low daytime profile and not attacking (unless infected with rabies) so maybe the very low aggression setting is enough.
I set the default to 5 so that the undefined CAN still attack. 0 simply never would. So until the list is completed, animals are striking a balanced likelihood. Once the list is finished then the default can be changed.
GREAT work guys! Looks like my next step - post debugging - should be to work out a game option that allows specified critters to spawn within and some to enter borders. I'm also thinking that maybe 2 reasons to enter borders would allow them to move or spawn inside improved territory while 3 reasons (and defensive only) would enable them to blend into cities - though that could be done with the city blending tag we have. Pigeons are quite at home in urban areas.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Those spawns should stay (and feel free to add more where you feel they should be added so long as DH is cool with that). They affect the core game whereas the GroupSpawnUnitCombatTypes tag usage does not. These spawns are simply turned off by the Size Matters option so as to keep from having overlap of intent while SM is on.
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
I just settled a Tundra city that caught a Musk Ox in it's initial 9 tiles. I set a Slinger out to dispatch it and it yielded a Mil Captive Unit.
JosEPh
Sure. ^^
As the list states all the animals in the first PASSIVE/AGGRESSIVE groups already spawn with bAnimalIgnoreBorders=1 That is the main reason for splitting the list in two. So if the truly aggressive animals (that spawn with bAnimalIgnoreBorders=0) can't be aggressive inside cultural borders before "SAVAGE BEAST II" then the same should hold true for the other animals.
Animals can spawn inside cultural borders if bNeutralOnly=0 is iset in their SpawnInfo.
I'll reconsider the iAggression values for the least aggressive animals based on your feedback. It is true that badgers, crows, cassowaries and wild boars can be very bold and attack opponents that are much larger and stronger than they are (when the odds are against them). iAggression very much represent this boldness but it also represent the percentage chance for an animal to attack unprovoked which is generally extremely rare for those listed animals.
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
No idea why then. The code for determining when you get a mil captive ignores animals by checking the isAnimal() function. It also ignores canine and feline units as well as tamed and subdued units.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Ah... sorry about forgetting to mention this but bAnimal as a tag on unitinfo has been removed so I had to take that line out of the python or it was going to crash there, so we need to make all animals by unitcombats completely incapable of being captured by having an overwhelming amount of resistance on the unitcombat.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Interesting...
How are we going to make "truly aggressive animals (that spawn with bAnimalIgnoreBorders=0) can't be aggressive inside cultural borders before "SAVAGE BEAST II"" a reality? Is this to say that if they cannot ignore cultural borders and they do spawn there anyhow, they are still incapable of attacking there?
Or is this a programming request?
But in many of these cases provocation can mean being seen moving. It can be entirely unintended to provoke with these creatures.
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
I thought you had created two civ places for animals now so you could have just changed isAnimal() to return true if the unit was from either of those nations. Then the python would not need to change and there would still be a simple test for animal units. Putting an overwhelming amount of resistance on the unitcombat would not be obvious and will come back to bite us in the longer term.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
You can get isAnimal from CvUnit ... just not CvUnitInfos. An uninitiated unit doesn't have an assigned leader type yet. I don't mind an attempt to rewrite the python but I'm trying to find ways to eliminate tags that aren't needed and this was the only spot that gave any question as to whether it should be further needed at this time. And I'm not the guy to get into the complexities of a deep python rewrite there. That said, I would prefer that answer over the unitcombat modification. But without further python design there, this will be necessary in the meantime.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Looks like I'm going to need another day at least to defeat the current bug holding me up here. Ugh...
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
Civ does this a lot, it confuses the data storage data model and the game play data model. You can remove the tag but still have a method. Sorry I have a bad head cold, I am going back to bed. Still no news on my computer
I believe these are things that can be achieved in XML already, at least it was possible before the Barb/Animal split.
Animals that can attack at level 1 the ones from the second PASSIVE/AGGRESSIVE (P/A) group cannot spawn within cultural borders, neither can they enter cultural borders.
Animals from the first P/A group does not have the slightest ability to attack at level 1. hence they can spawn within cultural borders and ignore cultural borders for movement rules.
Instead of Savage Beast, let's say we make a new promotion-line called Feral I, II & III, that is only available to wild animals. Reasoning: It could be confusing to see the animal can ignore cultural border line if you choose Savage Beast for your own animal units.
Feral I:
<iWithdrawalChange>-5</iWithdrawalChange>
<iAttackCombatModifierChange>15</iAttackCombatModifierChange>
<iUnyieldingChange>10</iUnyieldingChange>
<iStealthDefenseChange>1</iStealthDefenseChange>
<bAnimalIgnoresBordersChange>-1</bAnimalIgnoresBordersChange>
(This one only change the behavior from animals in the first Passive/aggressive groups.)
Feral II:
<iWithdrawalChange>-5</iWithdrawalChange>
<iAttackCombatModifierChange>20</iAttackCombatModifierChange>
<iUnyieldingChange>20</iUnyieldingChange>
<iDefenseOnlyChange>-1</iDefenseOnlyChange>
<bAnimalIgnoresBordersChange>2</bAnimalIgnoresBordersChange>
(This one makes animals from both P/A groups identical in behavior.)
Feral III:
<iWithdrawalChange>-5</iWithdrawalChange>
<iAttackCombatModifierChange>25</iAttackCombatModifierChange>
<iUnyieldingChange>30</iUnyieldingChange>
<bOnslaughtChange>1</bOnslaughtChange>
This is adequately simulated with stealth defense IMO, iAggression is more about the chance for an animal to see something far away and think "I should kill that" and then move a far distance to attack.
I assume here that stealth defense is not affected by aggression level.
If stealth defense did not trigger on Zero
units I would allow wild boar and badger to have stealth defense at level 1 and still spawn within cultural borders.Updated List More than halfway through:
Spoiler :
EDIT: I would like to suggest:
Code:
BARBARIAN
Chimpanzee............. CHIMPANZEE............. iAggression = 2 (Assassinate: ANTELOPE, MONKEY & SWINE)This would of course depend on if we decide to let barbarians and animals fight at all.
And it would be strange to see chimpanzees entering barbarian cities, so I'm not sure about the suggestion myself. Would the bExile keep them out of barbarian territory?
What is your opinion TB?
"In fact, during the peak dry season months, the estimated per capita meat intake is about 65 grams of meat per day for each adult chimpanzee. This approaches the meat intake by the members of some human foraging societies in the lean months of the year. Chimpanzee dietary strategies may thus approximate those of human hunter-gatherers to a greater degree than we had imagined."
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Ok... see how well it works as intended and we can go from there if we need to adjust anything.
Seems good to me. Wild animal prereq obviously. It wouldn't be Onslaught you'd use though... bStampedeChange I think is the tag.
I don't see a problem with allowing them to spawn within cultural borders and still be a potential surprise problem for workers stumbling onto them.This is adequately simulated with stealth defense IMO, iAggression is more about the chance for an animal to see something far away and think "I should kill that" and then move a far distance to attack.
I assume here that stealth defense is not affected by aggression level.
If stealth defense did not trigger on Zero
I get your thinking here and it does mean I may need to rethink the basic premise in the AI that low aggression means the animal would do all it could to try to get away from visible threats. Perhaps something like a bTerritorial tag could be used to negate any attempts to flee and get animals to hold their ground instead.
Looking good.
[/quote] I think we're going to start by allowing animals and barbs to clash and this brings up another point... animals should basically as a rule have bNoCapture right? So this means an animal can never capture a city, barb or otherwise - which is probably a good idea to ensure.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
For my next commit after the fix I've just put in place, I'll be resolving DH's python complaint - I reinstated 'isAnimal()' but keep in mind that it NOW means ALL units with UNITCOMBAT_ANIMAL, whether wild, subdued or whatnot. Additionally, I'm installing the isAnimal() check as a second check to the tag usage itself on isNoCapture. This means that by setting UNITCOMBAT_ANIMAL, you are making the code immediately assume the unit has the bNoCapture tag in use.
@DH: Why does locust swarms, unlike all other animals, use this spawning mechanism?
I would remove it and make the SpawnInfos deal with this.
Code:
<TerrainNatives>
<TerrainNative>
<TerrainType>TERRAIN_GRASS</TerrainType>
<bTerrainNative>1</bTerrainNative>
</TerrainNative>
<TerrainNative>
<TerrainType>TERRAIN_PLAINS</TerrainType>
<bTerrainNative>1</bTerrainNative>
</TerrainNative>
<TerrainNative>
<TerrainType>TERRAIN_DESERT</TerrainType>
<bTerrainNative>1</bTerrainNative>
</TerrainNative>
</TerrainNatives>
