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Breaking the Monarch Barrier

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Artisan, Jan 14, 2021.

  1. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    With a financial leader, settling on the wine gives you a 3c commerce city center. Two extra commerce in the early game is really nice!
    I would move warrior NW though, up on that hill, if there is nice food there, moving inlands can also be a good option.

    Don't play longer than 1T turn. Just move the warrior and post new screenshot! (And post the starting save)
     
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  2. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

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    Yep, I think we have consensus here on the moves. Settling on wine as the target, but if warrior reveals something nice NW, then moving inland is often a better choice. Coastal starts can be a bit tricky and Wang doesn't have the techs to make it very optimal. (Myst+Mining I think)

    Question would be what to tech if you settle on wine. Fish is "best tile", (potential for more seafood too) but one has to tech Fishing and then build a wb fast, but there is no 3H tile I think. Could start worker then flip to wb once Fishing is in, but again completion of wb appears to be rather slow. Cows are a slow proposition, but one could go the AG>AH route and farm an FP or two, then BW>Fishing. Or just go BW>Fishing and chop the wb later. I'm really not sure what is best at this point. I tend to lean toward the BW>Fishing route simply as I think its best for production/worker turns, though growth will be slowed.
     
  3. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Have to see more to decide, but I would almost certainly go fishing first, but likely finish a worker before starting workboat. There seems to be plenty of naked hills ready to be mined. And area seems abit devoid of forestes too so I'm not 100% certain that BW early is the way to go.

    Plains cows are not nice by themselves, but after a fish they are a sweet 6 yield tile.
    Also, with financial and floodplains around, maybe even pottery before BW could be nice.
     
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  4. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

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    Yep the lack of forests did cross my mind. At least the worker can build mines as you said.
     
  5. Artisan

    Artisan Chieftain

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    Moved the warrior 1NW, not much in the way of food beyond a lot of flood plains, seeing that many kinda turns me off when there's no forests to cancel out the unhealthiness before I can get a building to do it. Especially given the lack of healthiness resources around (1 source of fish, 2 cows). I'll post the starting save and the screenshot.
     

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  6. Artisan

    Artisan Chieftain

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    From zooming in: 2E of the Settler is either forest on either plains or grassland, 1N of that is water, either coast or a lake. If I were playing this normally I would probably settle in place to grab the fish later and so I don't end up wasting any forest hammers. Also being Financial on the coast is rather attractive before you have a lot of improved tiles to work. Those are my thoughts, anyway.
     
  7. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    Try to avoid settling on good tiles (=floodplains) when possible. Settling on marginal tiles that provide a big boost is awesome. Settling on river wine is +2:commerce: per turn for FIN leaders, something that is borderline impossible to pass on here. Coast usually plays no role whether FIN or not, but floodplains are pretty decent even unimproved.

    The start is very peculiar. There isn't much you can do with a worker even. Mines in general are pretty meh, but sometimes there is nothing better. I think even settler before worker makes some sense (which is the case in probably less than 5% of the maps). I think the line Krikav suggested would be the standard play though.
     
  8. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    I think something like this is in the cards:

    Settle 1E on the wine, tech fishing->agri->AH->tw->pot.
    Build worker first, then build a workboat working maximum hammer tiles once worker is done.
    Worker makes a mine or two before agri, then farms a floodplain that will be in reach for a possible second city that can be placed 1W of the northern plains cow.

    But thats just from seeing that warrior move, things will change along the way.
    You could provide a new screenshot with the settler moved 1E standing on the wine, before settling.

    Or just settle there and see what shows up.
     
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  9. Artisan

    Artisan Chieftain

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    Bit later than I anticipated being able to post, but here's a screenshot of moving the Settler 1E onto the Wine. Haven't settled yet.
     

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  10. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    I would settle there on the wine and start a worker and aim for fishing or agriculture first (would have to see how it lines up in turns).
    Worker will be done in 15 turns, and will go up that riverside plains hill and mine it (1+4 more turns). So agriculture have to be done after those 20 turns so that the worker can farm one of those floodplains.

    The idea with farming one of those is to have it ready to be handed off to a second city on one of the possible spots, both which would be insta-connected with the capital.
     

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  11. Artisan

    Artisan Chieftain

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    I settled on the Wine and started teching Fishing. I'll go to Agriculture next, both will be done before the Worker. I'll leave the city working the Flood Plains. In the meantime I'll just explore in an outward spiral with my Warrior.
     

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  12. SittinDown

    SittinDown King Supporter

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    Looks good - play until the worker is finished. You should be able to tech Fishing and Agri before T-15. My guess is farm the FP's first. You'll want to get to Bronze soon too - building a work boat with those tiles is not fast.
     
  13. Artisan

    Artisan Chieftain

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    Here's a screenshot right after I teched Fishing+Agri. The worker is three turns from being completed. Normally what I would do here is go to Animal Husbandry or The Wheel, although I'm considering Bronze Working as SittinDown mentioned. I numbered the improvements I would put my Worker on, mine first so that my Workboat comes out faster, then farming the floodplains like krikav suggested. I also included an arrow showing the rest of my planned scouting path for my Warrior, he'll return to the capital to sit on it to negate the happiness penalty, and to guard against barbs. It might be nitpicking, but is the scouting path decent?
     

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  14. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Scouting path looks fine.
    Had I played, I would not have risked the starting warrior but instead parked 1N of the northern cow in that forest, pretty decent fogbusting location.

    I'm not at all sold on BW, there is not an over abundance of food (at least not until higher population with the fish).
    And there is not much forest.
    And there is alot of workerturns required to make the mine and farm floodplain. (Not sure there is time for two?).
    I would most likely go for AH, there is plains cows in both capital and in second city, they are a superb tile with 6 yield.
    Horses are more abundant than copper too, so there is higher chance to be rewarded with horses than with copper.

    @Artisan You have alot of the map revealed now, how would you want to place city2 and city3? Any ideas?
     
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  15. Artisan

    Artisan Chieftain

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    I dotmapped a couple city locations. If I were playing normally I would start with the red one as my second city then settle the yellow one for my third. I like to overlap potential cottaging tiles with my capitol and other cities, this capitol seems to have six cottage spots, so eventually with Bureaucracy it should be a pretty decent one. I like the triple coastal for the idea of building the lighthouse later, especially since I already teched Fishing anyway. I think the plains hill at the end of the river is also a decent city site for later on, maybe for production purposes.
     

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  16. Pangaea

    Pangaea Rock N Roller

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    I like that as well. Both are good spots, but red is nicer early. It fogbusts a bit more inland and can work two cottages for the capital, plus two FPs of its own (one inner ring), and the Cow. And crucially, it will be auto-connected to the capital upon settlement, despite lacking a road to the river, because there is continuous coast covered in your culture. That is two 'free' :commerce: per turn, a pretty big deal so early.

    The yellow is fine too, but not as good, and needs culture before it can work the Crabs. It can borrow the Cow ofc, but further along the capital probably wants that, like when building settlers. But like the red dot, it can work two FP cottages for the capital, which is always great with these early overlap cities.

    AH next makes sense, while you get out some warriors for fogbusting north of the capital. Are there any nicely positioned forests to hide in?
    Next build has to be a workboat since you have Fishing already. So hope you are lucky with (non)-barb spawns.

    Edit: I see the screeshot above has more of an overview. I'd put a warrior for fogbusting purposes in the forest 1S of the wheat. A perfect location, and reasonably safe. It covers a pretty big area currently covered in darkness. Later you can put another warrior further east, for example 1S of ivory. Hopefully barbs don't spawn and wander the area before you can do this, but ofc that's never a safe bet in this game ;)
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2021
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  17. Artisan

    Artisan Chieftain

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    There's a screenshot of the whole revealed map a couple posts back, kinda zoomed out though. The wheat in particular has some nice forests nearby to post up in, although there's not much to hide in out towards the east. Two tiles west of the other wine there is some water, not sure if it's just a lake or actual coastline (had to zoom in all the way to find that one). I doubt there'll be too many barbarians over that way if it is coastline, so it may end up being manageable without forests.
     
  18. Pangaea

    Pangaea Rock N Roller

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    This is a task for fresh warriors, and not the initial one. His job is to scout the nearby area, and then take up a fogbusting position (unless he is killed in action). It takes a while before the capital will grow into unhappiness, so there is ample time to solve that future issues way down the road. No need for warriors in the early cities for MP duty.
     
  19. Pangaea

    Pangaea Rock N Roller

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    Sorry for not reading the posts earlier in this thread, but looking at the turn 12 screenshots, I have other suggestions.

    You have very few forests here. Sure, Slavery is always great, but early on I'd almost argue the ability to chop forests is more important, and you simply don't have many here. Think the next tech has to be AH, you need to improve those cows. Not fantastic food, but they are both 6-yield tiles (food+hammers), which is good. After that, it's tempting to argue for Wheel->Pottery instead, so you can put cottages on those nice floodplains. It depends a bit on whether you find Horses nearby for barb defence (in case warriors isn't enough). You don't want to farm a bunch of those FPs. Maybe first improve the PH mine, then the green mine? They're nice to have for when you slow-build settlers and workers, and also if you take a stab at Mids (you have Stone soon-ish) or the Great Lighthouse. And ofc the workboat that you need. Otherwise it's fine to (temporarily) farm one floodplain, but eventually all those in the capital will be cottages anyway, so don't overdo it. At least that is my thinking. It does take 7 turns, and is only +1 :food:.

    If you do want to farm a floodplain, then it's better to do the one 1W of the capital. Then you are ready to jump directly over to the cow when you have AH researched, and can then move back to the FP to finish it after the Cow is done.
     
  20. Pangaea

    Pangaea Rock N Roller

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    Not sure what's going on with the scoreboard to the right, it prevents me from clicking on the Menu button and the "question-mark", but I can interact with the F1 etc buttons.

    Did a quick shadow up to T12. Am not sure how you did the early game, but I did what felt natural to me. Starting with moving the warrior NW, to check out what might be missed by settling 1E on the wine (which I eventually did).
    Spoiler :
    Already being on the left side, and seeing likely coast, I continued that way, hoping to meet an AI. Not done so yet, but it was worth a shot, and there is more coast over there, so will be easy to fogbust. Then continued north, spotted jungle, and moved east. Just won a defensive battle against a panther, so must heal up (but is in a nice position, so it's fine).

    What appears to be a crucial difference, is that when Fishing was done (T5), I immediately started on a workboat, while working the unimproved 2H hill, making for a 10-turn workboat. It will be out in T15, and the Fish is improved in T16. Then finish the worker (on a good tile now), and after that it's time for fogbusting warriors. I believe this will make for a quicker start than completing the worker. Tech-wise, I'm thinking Fishing->Agri->AH makes great sense here. Not yet clear what is best after that, it depends a little on whether we find Horses, and the barb situation. I hope Wheel->Pottery is viable before BW, like mentioned in the posts above somewhere, but it may be too risky if we don't have Chariot defence.
    Spoiler T12 Images :
    Artisan T5 workboat.jpg
    Artisan T12 overview.jpg


     

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