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Breaking the Monarch Barrier

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Artisan, Jan 14, 2021.

  1. SittinDown

    SittinDown King Supporter

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    Agree with everyone on AH. When I suggested BW, I forgot there was a cow in the BFC of the capital. With the cow, you'll have plenty of hammers to build the WB. Probably would farm the PH 1 W, then pasture the cows.

    Interesting to see that Pangaea also likes early mine on the PH. I'm so used to always improve food first, I didn't really think of it, but I guess in this situation, it does make some sense to get that WB out as fast as possible, and the mine is probably the best way to do that.

    But Pangaea did work-boat first working the unimproved PH - and my gut would be that after that first work boat is out, and then the worker is done, I'd probably improve the cow with the worker, and thinking about a size 2 settler, while I cottage up. (brown cows + fish is pretty good for building workers and settlers).
     
  2. Snowbird

    Snowbird Prince

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    that Fish is what +1Food over farmed FP?

    I am not sure it is worth investing 30 hammers with no good hammer tiles early on just to get +1food. Especially with very few forests and potentially avoiding BW.

    My preference (judging without opening the save) would be go Agri>AH with probably pottery next, farm the shareable FP (probably smthing like 2N (or 2N+1W)of cap), improve the cow, mine the green hill.
    FP farm+cow+green hill is only one hammer and one coin short of fish+cow+PH mine, but does not need fishing and comes with 30 hammer upfront by not needing WB. Not sure how this aligns micromanaging wise, tough to say from pictures.

    If there were more forests around netting fish would be preference, but with plenty of worker turns (prior to pottery) I am not so sure
     
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  3. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    I like those positions, I was looking at that PH along the river. I like how it spans cow+wheat.
    Once cow is improved, that city could build a monument in 5 turns borrowing the cow.

    Crab spot is also good, and tile overlap are always good, but I have a hard time seeing this capital as burocracy material as in the sense that one relies heavily on it mid-game. It's just too much coast for that.
    Speaking of coast and GLH, too early to say imho. I don't think I would think of GLH or make a attempt, too little forest and the benefit GLH gives (strong economy) we have lying around this starting area in financial cottages material.


    I disagree with @Pangaea choice of workboat first, I would for sure go worker first and after worker finished probably grow on a floodplain starting workboat slowly, then at pop2 work the mined PH and something else to get workboat out the fastest.

    Someone mentioned farming floodplains is expensive, and I agree with that. I would probably only farm one or possibly two floodplains in this starting area. One in capital for potential use for second city, and one up in ph/wheat citys reach (only possibly).
    If there is time after miningPH->farming 1 floodplain and before pasture for the cow, I would mine the green hill rather than farming a second floodplain at that stage.
    At some point, I would want a road on that plains-hill too, as that would save a turn for the settlers moving toward both cities.

    I think I would go AH->TW->Pottery->BW, horses for chariots would be sweet, but it would not be a make-or-break for me.
    With the early mine I would iron on with warriors here.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2021
  4. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    I played up until T83 and have attached a bunch of saves and screenshots.
     

    Attached Files:

  5. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    @Snowbird Could absolutely be an option. (And I'm inclined to agree after playing abit).
    Not sure if it was the difficulty setting, or if it's the wine-settlement, but commerce was flying in faster than I could figure out what to do with it.
    I am usually a fan of early fishing if there is the option, as it usually helps alot with early commerce.
    Working a turn of 1F3C unimproved financial coast to reach a key tech a turn earlier can make a big differance, and fishing gives you that option if you need it.

    However I don't really like the comparisson that a floodplain is "free" and a workboat costs 30H.
    My rule of thumb is that a workerturn in the opening is worth aproximately 5 hammers, so a floodplain would be roughly 35 hammers too.
    And there is a differance between a 4 food source and a 5 food source, both need to be worked for 2F cost.
    So one yields 2 food and one yields 3, so in a way one can say that the fish is 50% better.
     
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  6. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    This is quite an interesting topic and I hope commenting won't de-rail too much. :) I think 5:hammers: for workerT is quite a stretch, it's pretty much the most you can get (=chopping). Most workerTs generate way less than that. Also, if a worker generates 5:hammers: every turn isn't it far, FAR superior to a boat that ceases to exist when it improves a tile?
    However, a size 1 city working a fish generates +5:food: and a city working a farmed fp generates +4:food:. I understand the logic of saying that the fish is 50% better, but I don't think I can agree with it.
     
  7. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    @sampsa
    Yeah, it's not hard math. The only points I wanted to illustrate is:
    1) a 5 food tile is deceivingly better than a 4 food tile.
    2) Farming floodplains is really really costly and not something one should do lightly.

    You have my save/screenshots and I think I did the micro pretty correcly, could be fun to see a comparisson with someone ignoring fish, because I do agree that 30h to improve one tile one time is a high price.
     
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  8. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    Yes, I agree with these! I do think 1:food: is much better than many players give it credit for, even if they know the mantra "food is king" and the :food:->:hammers: conversion rates gained via whipping.
     
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  9. coanda

    coanda Emperor

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    Think of the stuff you'll do with a worker before you start chopping in a typical game. Improve strong food tiles, maybe also something like a copper if you lucked into one on the BFC. If people are doing that before chopping (I know I do, and I think most people do), that's a sign they're valuing it above chops. Which indicates that for the earliest actions a worker can take, 5H is if anything slightly conservative. The value just drops off rapidly as time progresses.
     
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  10. Snowbird

    Snowbird Prince

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    Would be interesting, but I am not bothering to install the mod (the one I would not use otherwise) for that.

    The core of my thinking is that - it can't really be correct to build WB of either 0F2H tile or PH mine and farm FP at the same time. In other words fish suffers from coming online late and inefficiently and it does not seem to be the way to improve any of that.
     
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  11. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    @Snowbird
    This is how I build the workboat:
    Spoiler Workboat build screenshots :


    Fishing first guarantees that the city can start growing on a workboat right away when worker finishes.
    Civ4ScreenShot0004.JPG
    Reaching pop2, I swap from a floodplain to a forest for more hammers.
    Civ4ScreenShot0007.JPG
    Max hammers at pop2.
    Civ4ScreenShot0009.JPG
    Cow is online to finish the workboat off.
    Civ4ScreenShot0010.JPG

     
  12. Snowbird

    Snowbird Prince

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    I think you miss the essential ---
    on top of 30 hammers in WB you also waste 25 (5 worker turns - to climb and mine the hill) improving PH.
    55 is less than FP farm investment (~35) and FP farm can be worked earlier than the fish.

    It is not really that hard to comprehend. I literally don't have anything else to say on the topic.
     
  13. Pangaea

    Pangaea Rock N Roller

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    Big discussion I see. Just wanted to post my thought process. Essentially food is king. We have a good food resource in the fish. I want to improve that fast. Getting out a worker and building a PH mine is just a roundabout way to make the same happen. Working an unimproved mine looks bad, and maybe it was, but it did turn out okay in the actual game (I played a little further than T12). The worker came out in T22 or something like that. Ofc I didn't bother with the mine then, and went for the cow. Put a farm turn on the way, but that was more out of habit. FPs will become cottages later. After improving the cow, believe I went onto the FP mine and built it (suppose we're just doing the same thing in different sequence), then built a road there so the settler can get to the hill further north in 1 turn.

    Not sure if it was the absolute perfect play, but this was my thinking.

    Sorry if the OP is thoroughly confused now :sad:
     
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  14. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    You think a PH mine is a waste here? O_o Excellent source of hammers which can be swinged back and forth between first and second city.
    You need production somehow, why not the riverside mine?
    In my play, I don't think there where many turns up until T83 that neither capital nor second city was building workers/settlers.

    If you can't, then I'll probably have to replay the opening myself to consider Agri->AH.
     
  15. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    I think it's awesome that we get different plays and opinions aired. :)
     
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  16. Artisan

    Artisan Chieftain

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    Not sure what OP means, I get the feeling it refers to me though (original player?). This certainly is quite the debate. I personally would lean towards valuing the Fish over farming a FP, since the Fish will be producing +1 food and the farm on the FP will eventually be bulldozed for a cottage, which means any Worker turns put into it aren't as valuable as they would have been. The Fish is also an instant extra Health on the side, since sea resources are immediately connected, which would take pressure off of roading the Cows for health when I hit pop 5 or eventually chop the 1 health away from the forests. That would let me put Worker turns somewhere else, like possibly farming a FP for my second city to work.
     
  17. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    Yes, you should be improving strong tiles before chopping, because improved tiles generate a "passive" benefit, which does overtake the best immediate payout (chopping) rather quickly. Also, usually you don't have BW by the time worker is out so you don't run into this problem a lot (should I chop or improve food?). What I have noticed is that getting the 2nd city founded asap (and early chopping in general) is undervalued by most players.

    I do agree that the value of the worker turns is not static (techs, tiles, amount of chops available) so it's impossible to give a definite value. I do feel that calling 5:hammers:pt a slightly conservative estimation is not going to lead to the best decisions though. I think many undervalue early chops and way overbuild roads and mines, which leads a workerT being worth way under 5:hammers: (closer to 1:hammers:), but that's another story.
     
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  18. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

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    Original post or poster (that'd be you :D )
     
  19. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    I'm having troubles with game crashing when I'm loading the game. I think Buffy is suspecting that I'm cheating.
    I remember I had similar issues about a year ago with BOTM games. :/
     
  20. Artisan

    Artisan Chieftain

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    Right, forgot to mention, I'm using BUFFY-3.19.005. I don't know if this has messed anyone up who was trying to play the starting save.
     
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