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Breaking the Monarch Barrier

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Artisan, Jan 14, 2021.

  1. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    @Artisan I have that too, usually no problems but it seems like when I play games with "lock modified assets" and try to load games, it sometimes crashes.
    Buffy is a addon for HOF games, so I suspect there is some mechanic that is there to prevent reloading, but that it bugges out for me somehow.
     
  2. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

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    Hey krik - this is more of a Lock Modified Assets problem as opposed to a BUFFY thing. Either the creator of the save has different assets or someone trying to open the save has different assets. LMA will balk at this and cause a failure to load.

    I was able to open the save, so I think Artisan does not have an odd setup on his end.

    My first guess, considering that I think you mainly play with BUG and BULL, is to switch from BULL DLL to vanilla DLL. BUFFY can run with BULL DLL active since it is ignored, but LMA recognizes it as an asset. A save generated with LMA and BULL active cannot be opened by someone that does not have BULL DLL active, and vice versa.

    If that does not work, some other asset has been changed or added/removed. (Custom Assets should not be an issue since it is ignored)

    @Artisan - probably best not to have the LMA option checked for forum games here. It also prevents creating WB saves in case someone wants to play with a different mod setup.
     
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  3. Artisan

    Artisan Chieftain

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    Will do in the future if I end up putting any more games here.

    About the game, I'm not 100% sure if this debate ever really got settled, but I think I'll go ahead with teching AH, mining the plains hill, and building the Workboat. I'll keep a save where I am though, in case it ends up being decided that this isn't the most efficient route.
     
  4. SittinDown

    SittinDown King Supporter

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    My 2 cents.

    There probably is a best answer, but there are many good answers. You're not trying to jump to Deity in one go, you're just trying to go to monarch.

    You can consider them all at least "decent options", since they're all coming from good, proven players. Pick one and go with it. And learn from the debate.
     
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  5. Artisan

    Artisan Chieftain

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    1.) Mined plains hill while building workboat and teching AH. Worked flood plains until pop 2.
    2.) Worked mine + flood plain. Pastured the cows (changed to work cows from flood plain) and teched the wheel.
    3.) Farmed flood plains two north of city.
    4.) After workboat started a Warrior and switched from working the mine to working the fish (spent one intermediary turn working a flood plain).

    Is this a good series of events? Possible spoilers below and in the screenshot for anyone who hasn't played very far/hasn't played at all. Not at all gamebreaking, just not sure about the spoiler policy on shadow games.

    I have a copy of the game saved before I started doing everything on the list, I'm going to try and unravel other possible ideas from the discussion and try them.

    Spoiler :
    I also met three AI's who wandered across my fogbuster.
     

    Attached Files:

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  6. Snowbird

    Snowbird Prince

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    Spoiler :
    So I tried WB copy with late fish (like in time to produce settler) and no stupidity like PH mine. (I teched Agri>Fishing>AH since I realized worker would still be farming FP if I went Agri>AH>Fishing)
    Seems to be ~2 turns faster 2nd city, with aprox same population (1 turn used into second worker, +2 extra turns would allow tor each pop 4 in the cap).

    I could probably squeeze something more out if I really tried micro but probably nothing major. Maybe half cottage or something like that.

    Not sure what is better another wasteful FP farm or roads. I'd probably take roads since all workers/settlers have to move northwards.
     

    Attached Files:

  7. Pangaea

    Pangaea Rock N Roller

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    Don't recall the exact micro I did now, apart from the earlier post of starting workboat in T5, but I loaded the save played earlier, which was apparently up to T47.
    Spoiler :
    City 2 was founded in 2360BC, which comparing with your screenshot, @Snowbird, must have been in T41, so one turn later. It's possible I got out a warrior after first city grew to 3 before starting settler, but I don't remember such details.

    Anyhow, seems like that approach too was pretty decent. We're probably just splitting hairs here tbh. Divine perfection isn't required to beat Monarch, like was alluded to in a previous post.

    BW has been researched, and we're in Slavery.

    Artisan T47.jpg

    Small tip for attaching images: Once a picture has been uploaded, it's possible to add it to your post by using the "Full Image" link. It's nice to do such things in a spoiler, so the posts don't become huge. Works really well on mobiles too, because then we can click on the image and it becomes full size, and we can then scroll around for a better detailed look. I really like this aspect with this forum solution :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2021
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  8. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    @Artisan

    Looking good imho! There are things like worker micro and other nitpicks one could dive into, but I'm more interested in knowing what your thinking is now.
    How does the map look? What are you planning next?
     
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  9. Fippy

    Fippy Mycro Junkie Queen

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    Tired of reading your negative comments, if nobody else cares i will be first to say so.
    In case you missed those news, we are a fan forum of loyal "older games" players and should stick together.
     
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  10. Artisan

    Artisan Chieftain

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    I'm thinking I want to get a Settler out after the Warrior (will put 1 turn into another Warrior and then switch over to Settler at pop 3). Finish off another Warrior after that. Maybe look at a pop 4 Worker. After I finish Pottery I'll start cottaging, beginning with any tiles that overlap, and of course I'll get roads down when I can in order to get a trade route connected between my cities. Tech towards Bronze Working I think, then after that... I often would do a Construction rush if I pop copper and have someone close by, but it looks unlikely in this game. I'll make sure to pick up Alpha soon, I guess I'll see how it develops.
     
  11. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    To connect cities, you don't need a single road here.
    A city on the desert hill SE of the cows will be connected with capital along the coast (they are connected along the coast even before sailing, if the entire coast is inside your culture).
    A city on the plains hill abit further north would likewise be connected along the river after T50 when capital pops borders a second time.
    So the only road that is "needed" is one on that plains-hill, as that saves a turn in travel time for both the first and the second settler!

    A settler at pop3 is good, not certain it's best as you soon have 4 improved tiles, might be worth it to grow to pop4 even? You could do abit of math to check how many turns faster settler at pop3 is, compared to settler at pop4. It could be that a settler at pop3 takes 9 turns and a settler at pop4 takes 7 turns.
    Also, are you sure you have enough warriors? Might be worth it to go for pop4 just to have time to produce another warrior and make sure that the site for city#2 is secure. If there is a nasty barbarian in close proximity there the settler would probably be forced to just stay idle and wait for backup.

    If you do decide to go for settler at pop3, don't finish the warrior this turn, and put one turn into another warrior, do it like this instead:
    Put 1 turn into stonehenge T29.
    Finish warrior and grow to pop3 at T30.
    That way, you will likely get some overflow from the warrior build precious overflow that might, or might not help your settler finish one turn faster!
    @ Pop3, working fish+cow+ (floodplain or plains-hill, they are just the same)+citycenter you have 3+4+2+3=12 in production.
    A settler would then take 9 turns, but IF you manage to get 4 hammers overflowing from a warrior-build, then it would only take 8 turns.

    A worker in short order after settler also sounds like a superb idea. Starts with floodplains or starts with alot of forest it makes sense to go really heavy on workers, as there is such a demand for workerturns. Do a quick survey of your starting area (those 3 cities) and see how many improvements you deem as essential, count how many workerturns you need to ackomplish that and set a timeframe.
    If you need 60 workerturns and you want it done in 20 turns and only have 1 worker... Then you are two workers short.

    BW is probably good now, why are you inclined to go for it now? Are there other things you consider?

    Early alphabet is probably wise here as you have met alot of AIs already, and they won't get to alfabet in ages. On Immortal/Deity it's much more rare to self-tech alphabet as it's a tech the AIs usually get early, and they are always willing to trade it away.
     
  12. Artisan

    Artisan Chieftain

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    I'll put a turn into Stonehenge like you suggested, but there's no way to get an overflow of 4 hammers. If I want to get an overflow of 4 I have to sacrifice A) the Stonehenge turn, and B) effectively four food, so not a good idea. I think an overflow of 1 is the best that'll happen.

    I'm leaning towards BW because popping metal might give me a better idea of where to put my third settler, and it unlocks slavery, which I'll be able to start leaning into since I have the fish and soon a farmed flood plain. The only other real option I see is Masonry, because of the Stone by my second city. Normally I would say that gives me a chance at the Mids, but with no forest I'm not so sure. I could possibly ignore both BW and Masonry and just go straight to Writing unlock Alpha faster, but I don't see what benefit that really gives me.
     
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  13. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    Krikav's idea is that alpha gives you at least BW via trade, for free. I am not familiar with this level so I don't know what kind of tech pace you can expect. Maybe it's indeed safer to just go masonry and BW yourself. I think masonry is a bit more urgent, hooking up the stone for failgold and Mids. I think getting Mids is guaranteed at this level, I mean even on immortal they barely go before T80.
     
  14. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Oh, to clarify, I don't think alpha before BW is a good idea. Takes too much time!
    I just think that alphabet at some point later is a good idea.

    I do agree that it would be nice to get stone hooked up soon, but with only one worker I don't think it's realistic.. Have to improve the cow in second city, and start to lay down some cottages (why else did we go pottery?) etc...
    Techs are flying in on this map with the financial wine settlement, hard to keep up. :D
     
  15. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    Yes, also on monarch tech costs are much lower. I think I'd go BW, whip a worker in capital, chop both forest into a 3rd worker (after a settler, that is)
     
  16. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Yeah, something like that.
    There is a gigantic demand for workerturns here. Especially if one wants to chop pyramids.
     
  17. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    Maybe you could slowbuild in capital? Need to get settlers out though before that and work cottages with helper cities. I mean, it's like 20T with these tiles, plenty of time to start them. Should be easily before T80. Of course, maybe settling a forest city and chopping is even better.
     
  18. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    @sampsa
    You could scroll through my screenshots! I did a try up to T83.
     
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  19. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    @krikav thanks for reminding me, forgot to check it earlier!
    Spoiler :
    Well, I know if I tried this map, I'd try to expand a lot faster. On lower levels the maintenance is so much lower that expanding to say 5-6 cities asap offers great payback. A city W of capital for example is IMO more urgent than capital library.
     
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  20. coanda

    coanda Emperor

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    I ran out 5 games on Monarch up through turn 120 real quick out of curiosity (standard settings, Game.AIPlay 120 with console enabled). Pyramids was completed on turns 84, 98, 105, and not completed twice (turn 121+).
    • Oracle finished turn 77, 87, 90, 93, 95
    • Pyramids finished turn 84, 98, 105, 121+, 121+ (did not finish by T120 in two games)
    • Stonehenge finished turn 57, 58, 58, 66, 71
    • The Great Lighthouse finished turn 92, 98, 113, 121+, 121+
    • The Great Wall finished turn 61, 72, 75, 79, 80
    • Temple of Artemis finished turn 100, 104, 106, 117.
    • These were the only six world wonders built in any of the five test games.
    And those same six wonders in five games on Deity, for when it becomes "safe" to aim for early wonders as you move up in difficulty:
    • Oracle finished turn 41, 51, 53, 60, 63
    • Pyramids finished turn 60, 64, 81, 83, and 121+ (yes, there was one game on Deity where the Pyramids wasn't built by turn 120)
    • Stonehenge finished turn 34, 35, 41, 42, 45
    • The Great Lighthouse finished turn 46, 73, 83, 87, 90
    • The Great Wall finished turn 33, 40, 41, 46, 52
    • Temple of Artemis finished turn 59, 66, 66, 75, 80
     
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