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Breaking the Monarch Barrier

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Artisan, Jan 14, 2021.

  1. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    T84 Mids isn't bad at all. I think my claim was perhaps a bit too cocky. ;)
     
  2. Artisan

    Artisan Chieftain

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    Ok, so here's the situation as I'm about to start Masonry. I've just finished BW and swapped into Slavery. I've gotten a cottage down, and improved the second cow. My second Worker is coming out asap, and I have a few hammers in a Granary waiting to be finished (figured it was a good idea to build while I waited for pop 4 to start Worker, tell me if not). I think I may need a couple more Warriors, I currently have one sitting on each city and one fogbusting on the forest south of the Wheat. I have a few Worker turns down on some tiles as well, one turn on a road underneath the cottage, one turn on a cottage 1S of the cottage, and two turns on a farm that came from running to the cows and then back to the FP farm. I can't imagine I'll finish that farm though, that'll be a cottage later.

    I chose to work the Cows over the FP farm in my second city as soon as the Pasture was up, although this will slow growth by one turn. Is that a bad idea, or should I let it grow to pop 2 first?

    My plan after Masonry is Writing>Alpha, planning to sign OB with all as soon as Writing hits, I'll see what trades are available when Alpha comes in.

    Edit: screenshot
    Spoiler :
    Civ4ScreenShot0016.JPG


    Edit 2: Right, forgot to talk about the Worker I already have. I'm debating getting a road down on the cows because I'll need one eventually, and I feel like going all the way back to the cottaging area is inefficient with Masonry coming in four turns. Considering roading the cows and the stone and just letting my second Worker get the cottages down.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2021
  3. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Putting hammers into granary while growing is good.

    You said you swapped to slavery, this is not something that you should do automatically.
    If something is really urgent you can revolt and whip, but usually the best time to revolt is right after a city (or cities) finish a worker/settler, because then those workers/settlers can do their work (improve tiles or move to a city spot) while in anarchy.

    Working cow instead of floodplain farm and grow a turn slower is perfecly ok IF you did something useful with the hammers.
    Best would have been to work floodplain farm 4 turns, and cows 2 turns 4*4 + 2*3 = 22 and you grow to pop2 and likely start another worker.

    You don't have to have your warriors in your cities when they are this small.
    having a pop4 capital empty causes no unhappines and neither does a empty pop3 city.
    The warriors in the second city could possibly push forward into that forest.

    Probably a matter of taste, if you want to improve the stone right away, or if you rather finish some cottage first, but that you have to make these hard choices should tell you that there is too few workers. Good that you are getting more!
     
  4. Artisan

    Artisan Chieftain

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    Should I have been able to get the second Worker out earlier, or am I just feeling the natural effects of a slow start?
     
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  5. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    @Artisan I think it's just this map. Cost of workboat takes it's toll too.
    Floodplains is expensive in workerturns, and there is alot of techs raining in, pottery for cottags, bw for chops, masonry for that quarry..

    I checked my screenshots and apparantly I went worker->settler->settler->worker->worker.
    I think my reasoning was to just ignore the quarry abit, and postpone cottagning in favour of more expansion.
    T47 screenshot:
    Spoiler :


    In my play, I finished the farm close to the cow first. Not too sure about that choice.
    Second city is borrowing a floodplain one turn here to grow one turn faster, but thats all that the second city gets, after that capital needs that 4-yield tile back again to finish settler in 4 turns.
    Note warriors positions. This is a much more active stance which allows to react to invasions better.
    Civ4ScreenShot0033.JPG
     
  6. SittinDown

    SittinDown King Supporter

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    looking good.

    getting those early warriors out of the cities, and fog busting gets more and more critical as you go up. best defense against barbs is to make them not spawn in the first place. monarch is the first difficulty where you will start to feel that pain.
     
  7. Artisan

    Artisan Chieftain

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    I completed the second Worker in my capital and finished the Granary. I stopped growth one turn short of pop 5 so that with Slavery+Granary I can two-pop whip the Settler and grow to 3 immediately with the food bar half full. I finished the Quarry on the stone, and I roaded the second source of Cow because my second city overcapped on unhealthiness.

    As for Tech, I finished Masonry>Writing>currently researching Alphabet.

    I repositioned my Warriors to match your setup, although where they are right now is a result of Barb Archers appearing at the two signs a couple turns back. I'm currently building a Granary in my second city. If this sequence of events isn't quite optimal I'll replay the turns and compare the saves.

    Spoiler :
    Civ IV_ Beyond The Sword 1_23_2021 9_07_10 PM.png

    After finishing the Settler I would grow back to four and either get another Settler or a Worker. Probably Settler is a better option, the Worker wouldn't have much to do besides roading. After Alpha I'm not really sure what to research. Math? Aesthetics for trades?

    Planning on putting my third city on the plains hill at the end of the river, the crab location doesn't look like it'll be worth much at the moment.
     
  8. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    I understand that you are not seeking perfect play here, but I think the early game hasn't been a success. Two cities T58 is very slow, even if the map is a bit slow. Next you are whipping away two FIN fp cottages, while a worker is cottaging a farmed fp, again an indication that things are not right.

    What went wrong? Emphasis on granaries when the situation is very unfavourable for them. You have beautiful improved tiles to work, but now you need to whip in order to make use of your granary. A much better solution was leaving granaries for later and slow building settlers. Chop those capital forests, it's so important to do it asap to be able to expand faster. New cities give you so much especially on lower levels (3rd 1W of southern cow to claim crabs? Another city can build a boat to improve seafood immediately.)
     
  9. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    @Artisan
    I agree with the third city up on the PH by the river. But I don't agree that the crab city isn't worth it every city is worth it, and the sooner you settle them the sooner they become productive.
    Another rather nice spot, could be an city on that offshore island, as it gives you a instant boost of 1 commerce in all cities (that is, unless you have managed to get traderoutes with AIs)

    I understand that your third settler should be abit slower than mine which was out T52, as you went for some worker before that.

    Spoiler T52 :

    Here I also revolted to slavery, the timing of this revolt should always be considered carefully imho.
    Civ4ScreenShot0039.JPG


    I have to agree on @sampsa s critique of the granary.
    I'm a huge fan of granaries but I didn't get mine until T57
    I did this here for the usual granary inner mechanics reasons, but also because I have other cities that are now working the good tiles.
    The only improved tile I whipped away was the plains hill, a tile that should start to see less and less use by now (only usefull while building workers/settlers)
    Spoiler T57 :


    Civ4ScreenShot0040.JPG



    The granary is awesome, but it's also a very big investment, and it's easy to get it too early, and here I too think that slow-building a while longer is the right choice.
    With cow+fish+farmed floodplain we are still "only" at +8 food.
    This city will for sure see whips, but it should be at higher populations than 4->2.

    I also don't get what you say about stalling just prior to pop5, to reach pop3 with a half-full bar.
    If you want to whip, the settler should most likely only be in the cities queue for two turns, one turn to put some hammers in, and then either <10 to do a 4-pop whip (in cities with very high food), or >10 to do a 3-pop whip (like here).

    Don't be afraid to grow into 1 or even 2 unhappy faces. Say you are working fish+cow+3floodplain cottages at pop5, you are at +9 food.
    If you are at pop6 and just continue to grow, you are still at +7 food and you wouldn't lose that much either reaching pop7, or more likely just filling up the food bar at pop6.
    Then you can do that 3pop whip at the end of the pop6 food bar, if the bar is almost full you even grow to pop4 while the settler finishes, and you can then stall on another settler (or a worker) while the city can work all 4 of the tiles it's happycap allows.


    Have you learned that unhappy citites doesn't eat food while you are building settlers/workers...? Took me forever to pick up that gem of knowledge.
     
  10. Artisan

    Artisan Chieftain

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    Ah, okay, this makes sense. I often don't consider slow-building Settlers, I'll have to replay a few turns to see what the difference ends up being. I'll put out a Settler and maybe another Worker before finishing the Granary. And I'll make sure to use the forests to get the Settler out faster.
     
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  11. Artisan

    Artisan Chieftain

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    Here's what I did instead of what I did previously: slow-built a Settler chopping one forest for it. Put hammers into a library while growing to size five as quickly as possible so I can work the extra cottage I have up, and then build a third Worker. I have three cities up at T59. I'm building a monument first thing in my third city so it can expand onto the wheat and grab a food resource. Not sure if this is the correct move though, so feel free to correct it.
    Spoiler :
    Civ4ScreenShot0019.JPG
     
  12. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    Looks better! I wouldn't put :hammers: into a library in capital though, but to a work boat. Not sure if you built granaries in Seoul and Pyongjang. I think monument is fine in Wonsan to claim the wheat eventually. I'd settle more cities asap, starting from crabs.
     
  13. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    I built a monument in third city right away, I think it's a stellar move. Cows+plains hill makes it done in 6 turns, and it does claim the wheat, but also alot of forests!
    Perfect spot for pyramids imho, the horde of workers can go there and chop it out once they have developed the two first cities.

    A scouting workboat might have been better, but getting the library in the capital started is perfecly ok imho, just don't feel obliged to get it done right away, don't whip it and don't stagnate working hills to get it done.
    More cities and more workers is highest prio now, the rest comes later.

    Regarding crabs. It might hurt your sensibilities (it hurts mine) but it must be placed just NE of crabs, so that they are in first ring.
    Having the city 1N instead would help more to develop cottages in capital, but it would simply be inexcusable to build a monument there for the crabs when one can get them right away.
     
  14. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    Scouting schmouting, it's for crabs!
    I don't understand. NE of crabs is perfect.
     
  15. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    @sampsa
    Yeah, it should be NE of crabs.
    In a perfect world, I would want to have it 2N1E of crabs, so that it would be able to work additional capital cottages, and to claim more grassland.
    But it can't be done, crabs must be in first ring.
     
  16. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    Yeah, maybe with CRE you can go 2N1E. For me it's just so automatic that food goes to the 1st ring that I didn't quite follow the conversation.
     
  17. Pangaea

    Pangaea Rock N Roller

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    Actually looks like settling on the rice is a good option right here. The rice can never be irrigated anyway (assuming capital FP cottages), the desert ruins a possible irrigation path.

    (Not followed the discussion lately)
     
  18. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    On the rice is bad, unless there is 1st ring food. Again, with CRE it would be ok.
     
  19. Pangaea

    Pangaea Rock N Roller

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    It would be to take advantage of it instead of a fairly lousy 4 food improved rice source forever. Well, unless one parks a city one-off coast 1S of wine, and the talked-about city NE of crabs to grab that one. There is room for that, but then I don't like cities one-off coast, at least not here where it wouldn't grab important resources.

    Anyway, it's just a thought. NE of crabs is a fine option, and grabs food right away. Try to have a workboat ready, built in another city.
     
  20. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    I understand. It's not a great tile so settling on it does make sense. However, having no strong 1st ring tiles makes it less appealing. Working a cottage would generate 3:food:1:hammers:2:commerce:per turn. OTOH settling crabs on the 1st ring generates 4:food:1:hammers:4:commerce:per turn, which is quite a lot better.
     

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