Breakup of the Eurozone

Without the euro, our currency would have collapsed.

(not an personal opinion, just the educated remark of an economist I have read an interview of)
 
An informative article on the dire situation Eastern Europe finds itself in:

The big borrowers

Stephanie Flanders
27 Feb 09, 04:21 PM GMT

If you're wondering where the epicentre of the global financial crisis might be in 2009, I suggest you look somewhere east of the Danube.
Today's 24.5bn euro ($31bn; £21.8bn) joint rescue package for Central and Eastern European banks shows that the dire figures coming out of the region are starting to focus minds. But this is just the beginning.

Why are these economies in a particularly painful bind? Well, you knew that big borrower nations like America and the UK were hit first by the credit crunch. As I discussed recently, countries that relied on exporting to the rest of the world are now also being thumped.

The very bad news for the Central and Eastern European economies is that over the past few years they've been big borrowers and big exporters. Now they're suffering the worst of both.

You might think horrendous is a rather emotive term for an economist. But it's the only word that comes to mind when you look at the figures. Until very recently, exports accounted for 80-90% of GDP in the Czech Republic, Hungary and Slovakia.
Meanwhile, US and British borrowing in the lead-up to this crisis was chickenfeed compared to what these countries were hoovering up, relative to the size of their economies.

I've brought together the most striking figures in a chart (see below).These are the IMF's figures for net capital inflows in 2007 as a share of GDP.



I must confess I was astonished to see that Bulgaria sucked in flows worth nearly 40% of GDP in 2007. America wasn't the only place where you had very risky imbalances hiding in plain sight. Trust me, there are plenty more where that came from, and I'm leaving out the likes of Tajikistan and Ukraine - they're a subject for another day.

As Graham Turner, of GFC Economics, points out, these inflows are far larger than anything seen in the lead-up to the Asian financial crisis of 1997-8. Thailand had net inflows of just under 11% of GDP in 1996, the year before its currency peg collapsed and investors in emerging markets started running for the door.

European governments last week called for a doubling of the IMF's lending resources to £500bn, in the hope that a lot of that money might find its way to the likes of Rumania and Bulgaria.

But there's no getting around the fact that many of the economies in trouble are in the European Union. This Sunday's special European summit in Brussels will be an opportunity for the likes of Germany and France to declare their solidarity with the East.

So far solidarity has been in fairly short supply. Czech officials were understandably outraged earlier this month by the French President Nicolas Sarkozy unveiling support for French carmakers which was dependent on keeping French plants open - and appearing to suggest they close their Czech plants down instead. Not a lot of fraternité there.

Though all have been under pressure in the foreign exchange markets, not every country is in the same straits.

Poland and the Czech Republic, while poorly, are in better shape than most of their neighbours. Slovakia and Slovenia also face a hard slog but at least they are in the euro.

They don't have the problems of Rumania or Hungary - where a large chunk of the population, incredibly, now has mortgages denominated in Swiss Francs. (I guess it seemed like a good idea at the time, much as 125% mortgages seemed to make sense in Britain in early 2007.)

The situation for the Baltic economies is dire, too (sorry, it's a long list). A few weeks ago Latvia officially became the first country in this crisis to have seen a 10% drop in GDP.

The Baltics are all pegged to the Euro. Some say they should go ahead and join - which would at least give them the benefit of lower rates and stop the one-way bet to the speculators who think the pegs will break.

Riding out the storm inside the Eurozone is no quick fix. Ask Spain. But if you're on the edge of a full-blown current account crisis from the drying up of capital flows, being outside the Euro won't be comfortable either.

Whichever way they go, many of these countries are going to need support from EU and other multilateral institutions but also, probably, individual countries (several of whom, like Austria, have discovered their banks have a lot vested in the East.)

Eurozone economies may have to rely on that kind of bilateral help: the Maastricht Treaty explicitly forbids bailouts among euro members.

For EU members that are outside the Euro there are some funds available: the pool of available European Community assistance was doubled to 25bn euro ($31.6bn; £22.3bn) recently when the EU joined an IMF support package for Hungary and Latvia. But that's pretty small change compared to the scale of the problem. Knee-deep in bank bailouts, Western European governments will hardly relish the job of explaining to voters why they should bail out profligate East Europeans as well. But they didn't want to bail out the banks either.
 
Economy of Baltic pseudostates is already collapsing and there are nothing what can help them, because service, unproductive economy is going to be gone. They have little too sell and too much to buy. Their could survive in a bigger entity but seems like EU will sacrifice them.
Hey, nice to see our resident imperialist humorist back! :rockon:
Care to brighten up our days and explain, why is sale of services less feasible than sale of raw materials or sale of processed goods? If there is no-one buying, all three will suffer equally.
 
Hey, nice to see our resident imperialist humorist back! :rockon:
Care to brighten up our days and explain, why is sale of services less feasible than sale of raw materials or sale of processed goods? If there is no-one buying, all three will suffer equally.

Well, not really. People will prioritise gas for heating and cooking over non essential services every time.
 
That's of course unfortunate, but it doesn't follow that any of it is the Euros doing. Rather the opposite would seem to be the case. Only there's of course always a risk that in a crisis people start casting about for an external scape-goat.

Is that what's brewing in Germany? Surely the mighty German Wirtschaftswunder and the solid DM could never have been brung low, unless there was some nefarious foreign conspiracy at work?:mischief:

Germany has had a lacklustre economy for quite some time, and would have had it just as much without the Euro afaik. Maybe it could have made its export industry a bit more competitive by depreciating the DM some, if they had stuck to it, but that has never been a road to riches for anyone.:scan:

Amen. It's really unfair for Germany to blame their economic problems on the rest of the Euroozone, or even on this crisis. Fact is they have been performing poorly for quite some time.

There is only one Eastern European coutry that really screwed Germany, and that country is Eastern Germany.
 
Well, not really. People will prioritise gas for heating and cooking over non essential services every time.
And how are you going to have that gas delivered to you or how do you insist paying for it? Bring it from the pumps in a bucket and trade it for a sack of potatoes?
 
And how are you going to have that gas delivered to you or how do you insist paying for it? Bring it from the pumps in a bucket and trade it for a sack of potatoes?

dont get me wrong; all three will suffer, but not equally. you'll pay for your gas before you pay for your manicure.
 
Re Germany, her monetary hands were tied for a long time by other Euro nations. Lets compare Spain with Germany, both modern, developed Western European economies. Spain needed high interest rates to slow its housing and construction booms. Germany needed low interest rates to stop consumers from saving and get them to spend, which would have made Germany less export dependent. If both economies weren't tied to the same monetary policy, they could both have done this quite easily, and both economies would have been in much better shape to enter this recession. As it was, interest rates were too high for Germans to spend spend spend, and low enough to continue to stoke Spain's housing and construction sector. Funny, then, that these two economies are the worst performers in Western Europe thus far...
 
From what I hear Ireland's last chance seems to be that Germany might bail us out... frankly I can live with being a subject of mighty Germania
 
Much as I hate it, I'm fully expecting anti-EU populist political platforms to crop up all over the place. It doesn't have to make sense, as long as there's a vehement message of "We wuz robbed!" So far I've always though German a rock of stability in its committment to the EU, but the views expressed by some of the posters in theis thread have meant I will now be eying German politics with a new sense of alarm.:scan:

German politics has had more of a supportive attitutde towards the EU in the past, than the German population. EU sceptic politcians could only be found at the left or right end of the political spectrum, while sceptism of the EU was more widespread in the population. If there had been a referendum about the Euro, it would have been rejected.

Apart from the SED...er, sorry, the left party and some rogue CSU members, there isn't any political anti-EU plattform, right now. However, if the sacrifices for the EU become to large, and a "reasonable" anti-EU plattform would appear, it wouldn't have to look very far for support in the population.
 
dont get me wrong; all three will suffer, but not equally. you'll pay for your gas before you pay for your manicure.
Yes, that is usually true (I know a couple of girls who would disagree :D). But the investment and subsequent everyday costs to pump that gas are uncomparably larger than those required to open a beauty salon. You may end up selling this below your actual production costs.
 
Yes, that is usually true (I know a couple of girls who would disagree :D). But the investment and subsequent everyday costs to pump that gas are uncomparably larger than those required to open a beauty salon. You may end up selling this below your actual production costs.

Why may you end up doing that?
 
Why may you end up doing that?
In case of an economic crisis like this where prices fall? Because given your obligations in front of your financers, you may be better off selling below your costs than not selling at all.
 
In case of an economic crisis like this where prices fall? Because given your obligations in front of your financers, you may be better off selling below your costs than not selling at all.
:crazyeye::crazyeye::crazyeye: except that wont happen with gas, because people dont have the option of not buying it!
 
Oil has fallen from $140 a barrel to $40 a barrel. That's a fall of over 70%. Can you think of anything else that has fallen in price that much? Nothing, from essentials like food and clothes, to privilaged luxuries like Bentleys and diamonds, have fallen in price by that much. Nothing. It's simply stupid to think that economies that are dependent on exporting oil are going to somehow fare better than economies dependent on exporting BMWs or Volkswagens.
 
Oil has fallen from $140 a barrel to $40 a barrel. That's a fall of over 70%. Can you think of anything else that has fallen in price that much? Nothing, from essentials like food and clothes, to privilaged luxuries like Bentleys and diamonds, have fallen in price by that much. Nothing. It's simply stupid to think that economies that are dependent on exporting oil are going to somehow fare better than economies dependent on exporting BMWs or Volkswagens.

but its still a viable business, and a profitable one at that. Oil companies are not collapsing; luxury goods companies are.
 
but its still a viable business, and a profitable one at that. Oil companies are not collapsing; luxury goods companies are.
It's not still profitable for many nations. Countries usually have a minimum price, below which it is no longer commercially profitable to pump oil. Venezuela has it at $50 IIRC (from a thread of yours in fact!). However, companies don't simply stop doing business if they become temporarily unprofitable. That would be stupid, because they'd be missing out on potential (and in oil's case, inevitable) future profits. Instead, they burn through cash, and simply take the hit. And oil companies have LOTS of cash.

Lots of companies lose money one year, then make money next year. It's a fact of business. But having deep pockets doesn't lessen the pain to those companies -- nor to those countries dependent on oil revenue.
 
It's not still profitable for many nations. Countries usually have a minimum price, below which it is no longer commercially profitable to pump oil. Venezuela has it at $50 IIRC (from a thread of yours in fact!). However, companies don't simply stop doing business if they become temporarily unprofitable. That would be stupid, because they'd be missing out on potential (and in oil's case, inevitable) future profits. Instead, they burn through cash, and simply take the hit. And oil companies have LOTS of cash.

Lots of companies lose money one year, then make money next year. It's a fact of business. But having deep pockets doesn't lessen the pain to those companies -- nor to those countries dependent on oil revenue.

No it dosent, but lets face it, Gazprom isnt going to go under (thats what were talking about), nor is Venezuela's oil companies etc etc, keeping hundreds of thousands of people in eomployment, evennif they are making little profit or small loss, whereas car companies, banks, etc etc are going belly up left right and centre.
 
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