[NFP] Breathtakingly appealing - New Bull Teddy brings a new playstyle

[ATEX]

Was about to post this ;-) I haven't played him yet, but it seems to me that this Reyna ability would be very strong also. unfortunately limited to only one city though

I think you are adressing quite clearly why Reyna wont work. 3 governor titles to get one city a bit better will probably not be worth it.

 

[acluewithout]

I wish appeal was a more used mechanic

I've thought that too, but I'm now wondering if maybe the game finally does have enough appeal related stuff. As in, I think maybe via various tweaks, FXS has got to a point where the appeal mechanic is sufficiently meaningful.

Out of the box, appeal doesn't do much. Appeal is relevant for National Parks and Seaside Resorts (which are mostly relevant for Tourism victories), and it's relevant to Neighbourhoods. And that's it.

I'd thought what Appeal needed was more relevant across the board. But FXS have instead taken a different approach, where it's just relevant situationally. i.e. certain improvements (including City State improvements), certain Civs (Australia, now Teddy, sort of Brazil), and of course Earth Goddess. You also have various mechanics that buff unimproved tiles, inc Kupe, Reyna, which is sort of getting at the same thing from a different angle.

I don't know really, but I think that's either maybe enough or pretty close to enough for appeal. Personally, I find appeal certainly isn't super relevant in all of my games. But it is relevant in some of my games, because I've suzed Granada, or I've nabbed Earth Goddess, and I kind of like that balance.

But yeah, Neighourhoods massively suck. So do Sewers. They really need to suck less, because I'd like a reason to build these beyond Eurekas and Roleplay.

 

[tedhebert]

I think you are adressing quite clearly why Reyna wont work. 3 governor titles to get one city a bit better will probably not be worth it.

Well.. Liang can't be everywhere either. So one of your cities can make very good use of Rayna still. But I wouldn't say it's gamebreaking ;-)

 

[ATEX]

Well.. Liang can't be everywhere either. So one of your cities can make very good use of Rayna still. But I wouldn't say it's gamebreaking ;-)

The difference is that you can tour Liang, get the city parks down across your empire. But either way it is probably not game breaking no.

 

[Myomoto]

But yeah, Neighourhoods massively suck. So do Sewers. They really need to suck less, because I'd like a reason to build these beyond Eurekas and Roleplay.

Neighborhoods need to give yields based on appeal (like gold) and have a fixed amount of housing. It doesn't make sense that more people want to cram into the apartments because there's a city park and a golf course next to them

And recruit partisans delenda est!

 

[acluewithout]

Neighborhoods

I don't know how Neighbourhoods ever get better. I think maybe they should come earlier, and then get upgraded. But then they'd sort of overlap with Farms (which also give housing) and Sewers. They're also one of the few late game districts.

 

[Myomoto]

I don't know how Neighbourhoods ever get better. I think maybe they should come earlier, and then get upgraded. But then they'd sort of overlap with Farms (which also give housing) and Sewers. They're also one of the few late game districts.

They should definitely come earlier, but the biggest problem is that the excess population they allow for is useless.

Yields from cities need to scale more directly by population, or yields from buildings in districts need to be moved over to the specialist slots in the districts (i.e. if nobody is working in that library, it's not producing much).

If every district needed 3 citizens to be slotted to be fully productive, population would be a lot more important, and as the districts do not have any food yields, high food yields from adjacent farms would also be more important to compensate.

Alternatively, if there was a bigger penalty for being near your housing limit without a sewer in the city, such as disease natural disasters killing parts of the population (i.e. see European medieval cities with literal feces running down designated gutters in the open street).

But as of right now, there is basically zero incentive to build neighborhoods, and they are effectively just a layer of bloat on the games design.

 

[kb27787]

He's broken with SS since you get all those early extra governor titles. Give it earth goddess and voidsingers and we are talking ridiculousness.

In normal games, if you go Liang lvl 3 + Reyna, you have ZERO promotions for Pingala until medieval or so... which also means no GP boost or Oracle strat etc. He's significantly less strong without SS.

 

[Kwami]

You are ofc right in that other civs also focuses on appeal. If you read my russian guide for fast SV, it also does that for earth godess and neigbourhood gold, but Teddy is different because it makes more or less all tiles in your empire interesting to plan with regards to appeal. And everything you do from the very early game should be planned with regards to appeal no matter what victory type you are aiming for. That I would say is different than the other civs, although Australia has somewhat of the same elements in the gameplay, but to a lesser degree.

But, I don't understand this argument. Most of my best culture victories came from using Earth Goddess and optimizing for appeal throughout the game to get the extra Faith. Faith is just so incredibly useful for a cultural victory! The leaders that I mentioned just have extra incentives to optimize their appeal. Especially Canada, who wants to make as many parks as possible out of the otherwise rather useless tundra.

I would argue that if you aren't thinking about appeal from the first few turns, then you probably aren't playing as well as you could.

 

[Pfeffersack]

While I generally like the idea of the "appeal" concept in Civ6 - and even its implementation to a large extend - I always scratch my head when it comes to terrain like Swamps, Floodplains and especially Rainforests. It just breaks immersion for me that removing Rainforest (except in the case of playing as Brazil) and Swamps is increasing appeal, beneficial or sometimes even needed to create a NP. Ideally by replacing it with secondary forest and putting a sawmill on top (which doesn't cost appeal), if only adjacent to the planned NP It is the moment I always realize again that this fantastic idea sadly get overloaded by trying to tie in several effects (beauty, degree of "untouched nature", civil infrastructure like entertainment/culture as +, pollution, disease and disaster risk as -) in one factor (called apeal) which influences party very contrary features (National Parks, Tourism, capacity of Neighbourhoods). I see where the devs are coming from and the big advantage is that you have only a single value - but you pay for it with the oddities I mentioned. I would prefer a more complex model, where nature, civilization/entertainment level and diseases are handled separatly - influencing each other where it makes sense, but not by mixing everything up and calling it "appeal".

 

[Noble Zarkon]

As appeal is something you can activly affect, it is a lot of fun to try to rig it for the best output.

I tried out a game with him, took a few rerolls to find something suitable. I found the planning required incredibly tedious and no fun at all. To each their own I guess!

 

[Stavangerchj]

While I generally like the idea of the "appeal" concept in Civ6 - and even its implementation to a large extend - I always scratch my head when it comes to terrain like Swamps, Floodplains and especially Rainforests. It just breaks immersion for me that removing Rainforest (except in the case of playing as Brazil) and Swamps is increasing appeal, beneficial or sometimes even needed to create a NP. Ideally by replacing it with secondary forest and putting a sawmill on top (which doesn't cost appeal), if only adjacent to the planned NP It is the moment I always realize again that this fantastic idea sadly get overloaded by trying to tie in several effects (beauty, degree of "untouched nature", civil infrastructure like entertainment/culture as +, pollution, disease and disaster risk as -) in one factor (called apeal) which influences party very contrary features (National Parks, Tourism, capacity of Neighbourhoods). I see where the devs are coming from and the big advantage is that you have only a single value - but you pay for it with the oddities I mentioned. I would prefer a more compley model, where nature, civilization/entertainment level and diseases are handled separatly - influencing each other where it makes sense, but not by mixing everything up and calling it "appeal".

This. Rainforest tiles should get an appeal bump after Conservation or Natural History.

 

[steveg700]

I might not chop.

I just might not chop.

Oh, we all know I'm gonna chop.

 

[lotrmith]

This. Rainforest tiles should get an appeal bump after Conservation or Natural History.

And marshes/desert should affect Appeal for Neighborhoods (haha) but not Parks. For example, Utah has some of the most numerous and stunning National Parks in the USA but is mostly desert.

Almost like Appeal needs to be two separate values.

 

[steveg700]

And marshes/desert should affect Appeal for Neighborhoods (haha) but not Parks. For example, Utah has some of the most numerous and stunning National Parks in the USA but is mostly desert.

Almost like Appeal needs to be two separate values.

Yep, and folks tour Vietnam to see the jungles. Maybe that's part their unique ability.

And what about lakes? Lakes have no appeal in and of themselves and cannot be part of parks.

Should just be a different rule for creating parks that generating tourism based on appeal. Appeal would just be one qualifying factor.

There are a lot of tactics I employ that I wouldn't otherwise. At first I figured I was going to get appeal at the expense of those choice HS and campus spots, but now I realize that sometimes I can go ahead and put the HS there and level up the adjoining terrain from 3 to 4.

For instance, I actively delay bronze working so that I can throw down districts because I actually want to gamble on covering up any deposits.

I'm sure teddy would approve, but I'm also harvesting more stone than I usually do.

He's broken with SS since you get all those early extra governor titles. Give it earth goddess and voidsingers and we are talking ridiculousness.

Yeah, a lot of stuff is broken by tossing in all those early free promotions. Really bad idea for SS, makes more of a novelty mode than anything. One extra promotion would've been fine.

 

[Tech Osen]

This. Rainforest tiles should get an appeal bump after Conservation or Natural History.

Never made sense to me that jungles and marshes give negative appeal. So I use a mod to fix that.

 

[Myomoto]

Never made sense to me that jungles and marshes give negative appeal. So I use a mod to fix that.

I think the idea is they are more inhospitable to humans (more diseases/dangerous animals etc.), thus they lower the housing of neighborhoods by lower appeal.

 

[Tech Osen]

I think the idea is they are more inhospitable to humans (more diseases/dangerous animals etc.), thus they lower the housing of neighborhoods by lower appeal.

And then they make the largest marsh in the world a natural wonder, with +2 appeal for adjacent tiles.

 

[monikernemo]

Very strong with Alcazars, but still rather spawn dependent. Flood plains are like your nightmares. Early game - essentially Rome on steriods minus free roads and legion, but that also means your districts and tile purchase become expensive quickly. But fast tech also means that your wonders requires relatively few chops. Early lumber mill would be great?

It is very difficult to decide whether to chop, or not to chop hmm...

 

[reddishrecue]

Never made sense to me that jungles and marshes give negative appeal. So I use a mod to fix that.

I think the idea is they are more inhospitable to humans (more diseases/dangerous animals etc.), thus they lower the housing of neighborhoods by lower appeal.

There's civilizations that thrive on rain forests, like Brazil, and keeping them for a future lumber mill gives good food and good production. Not only that but there's chichen itza that gets those rainforests with +2 culture and +1 production. You get +1 science with a zoo too.