Brexit Thread IV - They're laughing with us, not at us

[Cutlass]

Brexit Thread II - How to instantly polarise your country without even trying
Well, there we go, just as expected, any attempt to have a trade deal with the US is off if we stick to EU rules (at least according to Trump this week). Naturally, the EU has traded with the US most unfairly, so if there's anyone who still thinks we'll be able to negotiate anything other than a totally one-sided deal (for the US), then they clearly have another think coming.

The point to Trump is that he's lived his whole life with one sided deals in his favor, and then usually doesn't even follow through on his side then. He does not have a concept within him of dealing fairly with others. To him, 'fair' is getting what he wants.

 

[Takhisis]

That's ******* rubbish, the old thread should be reopened
The 11th book thread too

Take it up with the mods. *spreads hands helplessly and then wonders what happened to the 11th book thread*

The point to Trump is that he's lived his whole life with one sided deals in his favor, and then usually doesn't even follow through on his side then. He does not have a concept within him of dealing fairly with others. To him, 'fair' is getting what he wants.

Which is why the floating inflatable baby thing is a highly accurate graphical representation of his psychologico-psychiatrical status.

 

[Silurian]

Which is why the floating inflatable baby thing is a highly accurate graphical representation of his psychologico-psychiatrical status.

As noted on a BBC R4 program, Trump may actually like that, sitting around all day watching cartoons and being breast feed.

 

[Takhisis]

You can read hyperdisillables!

 

[Ferocitus]

We are currently undecided:
(c) Jacob Rees-Mogg (as haber-dasher's model and Adrian Mole lookalike).

I studied English classics and imagine the incumbents quite differently, e.g.
May, Johnson, and Corbyn (the gent at the lower left).

 

[really]

And this is why the continentals are so keen to create this Irish border issue to keep the UK de facto in the EU's customs union.

Text from the last thread.

It isn't the continentals making an issue of it and your attitude is a symptom of why the UK hasn't progressed on the issue.

This is the one and only issue for Ireland and no Irish leader is going to accept an agreement that includes border posts on this island.

Since the referendum was first mooted Ireland's agenda and diplomatic efforts was to get our message and opposition to a border across to the other members.

For example:
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/wor...united-ireland-declaration-1.3066569?mode=amp

 

[Verbose]

This is the one and only issue for Ireland and no Irish leader is going to accept an agreement that includes border posts on this island.

Looks like English occasional trouble thinking about the Irish as actually independent, and not just a captive population of someone else.

The funny bit of course is how the EU empowers Ireland vs Britain in all this. The rest of the members are expected to show solidarity with Eire, same as with any other member state. The UK having decided to leave waives that commitment to it. And it is testament to how, when matters of essential national interest to smaller member states are on line, they tend to be perfectly capable of leveraging this through the EU.

It is of course simplified by most of the UK govt's ideas about how they would like things to work tend to come back to a forlorn hope that the EU will somehow nerf itself on the UK's behalf, by compromising on the four freedoms that underpins the common market (or selling out the Irish). Which, from a continental perspective, makes no sense. It's the bit where the UK acts as if the EU owes the UK to make Brexit a success never mind how, and not something that the UK has to make work.

I think we can all discern the shape of a future where the UK blames the EU for all ills that might befall it henceforth.

 

[Arakhor]

I think we can all discern the shape of a future where the UK blames the EU for all ills that might befall it henceforth.

That's been the present in certain circles for the last 20 years!

 

[EnglishEdward]

No Irish leader is going to accept an agreement that includes border posts on this island

.

The UK has not proposed border posts on the island.

It's the bit where the UK acts as if the EU owes the UK to make Brexit a success never mind how, and not something that the UK has to make work.

Thank you.

That sums up Theresa May's perspective very well.

And those of us who voted Leave find that perspective completely daft too.

 

[metalhead]

It wouldn't help to run a Mogg now.

But he's his own best friend.

That sums up Theresa May's perspective very well.

And those of us who voted Leave find that perspective completely daft too.

Was there a reasonable expectation at the time that the leading voices negotiating Brexit wouldn't have such a daft perspective? Did you consider that before voting?

 

[Senethro]

Has anyone actually ever tried an unenforced border? My googling just finds Brexiteer proposals and US-Mexico border asshattery.

It also sounds a bit of an improbable situation to maintain itself. Immigration reduction is a major issue for the remaining ideological brexiteers, so to hear such people propose to just not enforce a border sounds very insincere.

 

[Silurian]

I had someone who worked for me in London from Kosovo.
He just walked across the border on some footpath but he most likely could have walked up a road.

 

[EnglishEdward]

Was there a reasonable expectation at the time that the leading voices negotiating Brexit wouldn't have such a daft perspective?

I think it was a reasonable expectation that the leader appointed to oversee the UK Leaving the EU would:

(a) believe that the UK should Leave the EU,
(b) understand that the vote was a vote to end, not to renegotiate, a very complex arrangement; and
(c) use the two years to prepare the UK.

I am coming to the conclusion that Theresa May obtained her position by fraud because it is difficult
to believe that she believed that the people wanted what she is trying for, i.e. a Brexit in Name only.

Did you consider that before voting?

The referendum voting was a tick Leave or Remain, not select a negotiating strategy.

Most of us expected that David Cameron would stay and invoke
Article 50 (as he had promised) and/or handover to Boris Johnson.

Has anyone actually ever tried an unenforced border? My googling just finds Brexiteer proposals and US-Mexico border asshattery.

It also sounds a bit of an improbable situation to maintain itself. Immigration reduction is a major issue for the remaining ideological brexiteers, so to hear such people propose to just not enforce a border sounds very insincere.

I am puzzled as to why you should consider an unenforced border improbable
bearing in mind that it (a) currently exists (b) is specified in the Good Friday
Agreement (c) is what the Irish and the UK government say they wish to continue.

 

[Silurian]

I am coming to the conclusion that Theresa May obtained her position by fraud because it is difficult to believe that she believed that the people wanted what she is trying for, i.e. a Brexit in Name only.

Brexit means Brexit.
So it just means a name.
That is the only thing she has been clear about.

 

[Traitorfish]

I am coming to the conclusion that Theresa May obtained her position by fraud because it is difficult to believe that she believed that the people wanted what she is trying for, i.e. a Brexit in Name only.

She won 42% of the vote, representing maybe 34% of the electorate. In what sense do you imagine that "the people" put her into power?

It's a dead-end to argue that she mis-represented herself to "the people" when the greater majority of them didn't vote for her anyway.

 

[Senethro]

I am puzzled as to why you should consider an unenforced border improbable
bearing in mind that it (a) currently exists (b) is specified in the Good Friday
Agreement (c) is what the Irish and the UK government say they wish to continue.

Ending freedom of movement while not enforcing a border seems somewhat squaring the circle. Where will you catch border crossers and create end freedom of movement in actuality instead of merely in law.

This is a question that will need a rigorous answer. After Windrush there will be little tolerance for "accidentally" deporting EU citizens who have been here for years but perhaps can't prove it sufficiently, despite their children being natural citizens in the midst of primary school.

It reeks of JRM smarm to suggest that, due to the actions of the UK creating a new external EU border, the EU should just not enforce their side. Where else does the EU not enforce external borders at the behest of non-EU countries? Perhaps it could be done, but with some kind of compensation to the EU for the inevitable smuggling damage?

 

[AmazonQueen]

I think it was a reasonable expectation that the leader appointed to oversee the UK Leaving the EU would:

(a) believe that the UK should Leave the EU,
(b) understand that the vote was a vote to end, not to renegotiate, a very complex arrangement; and
(c) use the two years to prepare the UK.

I am coming to the conclusion that Theresa May obtained her position by fraud because it is difficult
to believe that she believed that the people wanted what she is trying for, i.e. a Brexit in Name only.




The referendum voting was a tick Leave or Remain, not select a negotiating strategy.

Most of us expected that David Cameron would stay and invoke
Article 50 (as he had promised) and/or handover to Boris Johnson.



I am puzzled as to why you should consider an unenforced border improbable
bearing in mind that it (a) currently exists (b) is specified in the Good Friday
Agreement (c) is what the Irish and the UK government say they wish to continue.

Well she supported Remain before before the Referendum so its hardly surprising she isn't an ardent Brexiteer but given Johnson's frequent changes of mind over Europe and naked ambition I wouldn't trust him with anything.

 

[metalhead]

Most of us expected that David Cameron would stay and invoke
Article 50 (as he had promised)

But wasn't he in favor of Remain? Wouldn't that have caused the exact same problem, that the person in charge of Brexit would not believe in it?

 

[Kyriakos]

At least for me it might be positive if Britain ends up allowing some eu country citizens right to stay/work there, cause i have a degree from an ukic university and would like to return to the Albyon for a while (or more ).

Even so, i doubt i would be staying in the central zone of London this time round... (at least not until i become famous; and very rich again)

 

[Takhisis]

But wasn't he in favor of Remain? Wouldn't that have caused the exact same problem, that the person in charge of Brexit would not believe in it?

Cameron was absolutely always in favour of staying in power, just as Treeza May is. Whether the country goes to the dogs or not is immaterial to those who do not share the fate of mere mortals of your calibre who have to acquire employment in order to pay for utilities and foodstuffs and children's education.