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Brexit Thread IV - They're laughing with us, not at us

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Traitorfish, Jul 13, 2018.

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  1. EnglishEdward

    EnglishEdward Deity

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    Even the very Pro EU Guardian is starting to see sense:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/14/mandelson-brexiters-may-eu-humiliation-opinium-poll

     
  2. AmazonQueen

    AmazonQueen Virago

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    We manage to abide by Data Protection for all sorts of things, many much less important than immigration status. Cost cutting was the main factor and one can't help feeling than for the Tories the immigration status of ethnic minorities isn't important.



    This thing we have in the UK called Cabinet government and collective responsibility. Its quite traditional and British, not some new-fangled European idea.



    Which makes me wonder why freedom of movement is such a big issue for Brexiteers.



    Well not the Brexit they wanted, although we now know that the Brexit they wanted is not on offer from the EU. Boris will not have his cake and eat it too.
     
  3. Broken_Erika

    Broken_Erika Nothing

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    If the UK was serious about protecting itself from rabies; It wouldn't have let Donald Trump visit. And the UKIP would have not been allowed to run in elections.
     
  4. Oerdin

    Oerdin Deity

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    I am truly hoping they Mps reject the weak colony status Brexit and just say no deal. That would be a clean break without all the dumb entanglements and attacks on sovereignty plus the EU will eventually come back and agree to a free trade agreement especially if Trump keeps upping his trade war and that starts hurting RU economies.

    After Trump slaps a 25% tariff on German cars and the industry goes into a tail spin will they really refuse a deal which lets them hold on to their current largest export market for German cars (namely the UK)? If the PM said if no free trade agreement is reached (including services) then there will be a 50% on EU made cars then that would just give them added incentive to get off their high horse and admit free trade is in everyone's interests.
     
  5. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    Actually US large tarifs on german cars would be good to see :satan:
     
  6. Oerdin

    Oerdin Deity

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    I am just saying if Trump is going to be an idiot and keep pressing his trade wars then that puts a ton of pressure on the EU to actually work out a free trade agreement with the UK. Otherwise their industry gets hit with a one two punch.
     
  7. Senethro

    Senethro Overlord

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    There must be a great deal of crypto-Remainer saboteurs in the Conservative party working together to prevent the inevitable triumph of Brexit.
     
  8. Takhisis

    Takhisis Jinping, wer fragt uns?

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    up yours.
    The ‘very pro EU’ Grauniad is simply reporting what somebody else said.
     
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  9. AmazonQueen

    AmazonQueen Virago

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    Why would they need to?
    Its been enough of a mess with Davies, Johnson, Gove and Fox there.
    Inevitable debacle more like.
     
  10. uppi

    uppi Deity

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    You are severely misjudging the situation here. The UK needs a free-trade agreement much more than the EU. No trade with the UK would be bad for the EU, but the damage in relation to the total economy would be much less than the damage to the UK economy caused by no trade with the EU. For all her faults, May realizes this at least and this is why she is willing to make so many concessions on the trade side. Defaulting to WTO rules would already be quite devastating to the UK economy, a trade war with the EU would be downright suicidal. The only way the UK will be able to avoid making concessions on this matter would be to - in BoJo's words - <four-letter-word> business. If the UK is willing to burn down their own economy, the EU is not going to stop them.

    By the way, my friends in the car industry tell me that the most cost-efficient way to deal with Trump's proposed car tariffs will be to close US-based car factories. With all of the resulting tariffs, producing cars in the US would become too expensive.
     
  11. Cutlass

    Cutlass The Man Who Wasn't There.

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    That's being threatened by a number of international car companies. One thing Trump is too ignorant to grasp is that many of those facilities are in red states, for they did that to keep labor costs down. And so Trump voters will pay the highest price.
     
  12. innonimatu

    innonimatu Deity

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    I don't know what an EU without the common market would be. Virtually everything it does is done in the name of the common market: external treaties, the common currency and monetary policy, the budgetary constraints, the concentration of banks...
    Much like most of the US federal government was based on that interstate commerce clause in their constitution. The intention of creating a federal Europe, an european super-state, was in the EU from the start. It's funny that now, finally, there are some people publishing books that present an intellectual connection between those who missed the Autrian-Hugarian Empire (and the other supra-national empires) and the present-day European Union. Something I have been going on about for years. These would not even be heresy a decade ago, they'd just be suppressed, never published but for short pieces outside some very marginal old left magazine. But they are now finding publishers and getting some media attention and debate. There is a growing public awareness that the EU was built in a deceptive way, that it is an organization that serves some interests at the expense of others, same as all power dynamics, that there are valid reasons to oppose it.

    Going back to what you asked, the EU as an organization to agree on common standards was unnecessary because such organizations already existed. As a diplomatic forum, likewise. A whole lot of non-(strictly)-market related international (european) organizations were swallowed by the EU. I'd rather have those back and no EU. The EU with its open-ended claims inevitably will claim all the trappings of a state, die trying to impose itself as one. Europe is not amenable to Empires. The question for me is whether it will die with a whimper, or with a civil war. I'd much prefer the former, and to achieve that it must be disbanded before its bureaucracy can claw more power.
     
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  13. innonimatu

    innonimatu Deity

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    The UK indeed has most of its trade with the EU. A strategic mistake made long ago. But one that can be corrected. May is to blame for not being hard at work correcting it already.

    There is another way: break the EU. But May is a fool, she has the means to achieve that, but not the courage. BoJo, just like Trump, is underestimated. It's not how intelligent they are anyway, it is how far they are willing to go out of "the norms", and the power they command. The US-UK command a lot still... their real limits are set by internal politics, and both of them seem very adept at overcoming those limitations.

    Remember, it is not business as usual when dealing with the US, at least with the government it has now. Close those factories and abdicate the US market entirely? I believe Trump will be fine with that. Demand will still be there, and new owners would take it over. It would surely help him politically, contrary to what your friend counts on. He'll win the workers with the nationalist card, and the bosses with federal support to put up new factories to add to their business empires. Damn, you people remain as blind to the current circumstances as before that election!
     
  14. Arakhor

    Arakhor Dremora Courtier Super Moderator

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    Europe is not amenable to empires? Since when, exactly?
     
  15. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    Ww2?
     
  16. Arakhor

    Arakhor Dremora Courtier Super Moderator

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    When the British, American and Russian empires were at war with the German and Japanese empires?
     
  17. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    I mean the aftermath :p
    Most of those empires fell either as an immediate result of the end of the war, or in the aftermath; in a couple of decades.
     
  18. Takhisis

    Takhisis Jinping, wer fragt uns?

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    up yours.
    I think we both agree that the EU has had some very bad effects, but we disagree on the solution. Yours is to do away with the EU, mine is integral reform. The UK isn't really doing either. Whatever A. B. de P. Johnson, J. R-M. and the rest might splutter about, it is clear that they have no alternative solution, because if they had one, in the two years since the referendum (or, better yet, in the run-up to it) they'd've proposed one. So they quit to avoid getting dragged down. But they themselves see no problem with the country being dragged through hell and back as long as they can continue playing for power.
    I myself have lived through situations in which ‘doing away with the government’ has been carried out, and I can tell you that it's never a good thing.
     
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  19. innonimatu

    innonimatu Deity

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    Varoufakis tried reform. It didn't happen because it can't happen. The EU will only be maintained so long as it serves the interests of the most powerful classes within it. If a campaign to reform it so as to fix the social problems it creates ever gained traction, those classes would immediately move to disband it. Germany would leave! France would leave.

    I disagree with Kyriakos on characterizing the eastern european countries within the EU as especially racist. Their populations were just more aware of the imperial character of the EU even during accession negotiations. The EU only gradually grew imperialist upon older members, which suffered no humiliating undercutting of sovereignty on accession back then it was just the EEC. But when the former soviet satellites entered the conditions imposed were already worse, they were to either sell or dismantle their larger industries, and their banks. They were even subject to the (only now!) denounced investor-state settlement agreements! These, as well as the fire sale of important industries and most of the banks in those countries, were impositions placed on their governments during the negotiators for EU accession. They were never formal conditions, rather political, mafia-style demands:
    "it's a nice negotiation you have going on to join out trade block, it's be a shame if we had to delay or veto it. Now if you could just give us a stake in your country..."

    They were economically colonized, and quickly. They accepted because the EU seemed inevitable, but they took notice. And as soon as they could (in the aftermath of the financial crisis, being outside the euro) they responded through increased nationalism. And it took the "rules-based" EU until 2018 to revoke just one enduring aspect of that humiliation. Do take notice of the positions by the several governments:
    The EU is not just an empire, it is an empire used to further the domination of the economic groups from its wealthier countries over the others. These fault lines within the EU are not going away just because of one court decision, that revoked - 20 years too late! - merely one of the many schemes they keep deploying. Those fire sales of assets are not being revoked: Skoda remains owned by germans, the banking systems remain owned by french, belgian, dutch, german, and italian banks, etc. And in each new trade treaty, each new regulation, these power dynamics get replayed again: the wealthier groups of the wealthier states get new rules that benefit them, at the expense of the other states. In the name of "economic rationality", of course! And the states are starved of tax money as their companies move headquarters to some netherlands "fiscal heaven" and reinvest their profits through the City in London, while the owners pile up wealth in some private bank in Luxembourg. The EU buys its quislings (subsidies to feed corruption, these tax heavens...) in each member country that is actually disadvantaged by it.... but those people know that the game is rigged against their countries and won't hesitate to turn if they see the public mood turning strongly against the EU. That is what is happening in eastern Europe. That is what is happening in Italy now also.
     
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  20. FriendlyFire

    FriendlyFire Codex WMDicanious

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    Liberalism has failed Time to try National Socialism Again !
    Or we could pass laws for corporations that avoid taxes, by closing up loop holes and tightening regulations
     
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