Brexit Thread IX - Voters' Remorse

[AmazonQueen]

The Remainer establishment was very careful to ensure that
Nigel Farage was not leading the official Leave campaign.

Thus leaving him free to spout all his nonsense and the official Leave campaign to claim they were responsible politicians, not like him.

 

[Arakhor]

The Remainer establishment was very careful to ensure that
Nigel Farage was not leading the official Leave campaign.

At some point, you might want to consider that you have bought into a conspiracy.

 

[EnglishEdward]

At some point, you might want to consider that you have bought into a conspiracy.

Boris Johnson seemed very surprised and his behaviour was a little peculiar the day after Leave won the vote.

 

[Arakhor]

He certainly did. I don't think he expected Leave to win and was purely backing them for political credit in the party.

 

[Takhisis]

the Remainer establishment

Ah, yes, opposed by the Liberators.

 

[FriendlyFire]

Boris Johnson seemed very surprised and his behaviour was a little peculiar the day after Leave won the vote.

Thats what winning looks like.
Happy Boris

 

[PhroX]

He certainly did. I don't think he expected Leave to win and was purely backing them for political credit in the party.

Yeah, there's no need for some malevolent "Remainer conspiracy" when Boris' actions can be perfectly explained by Boris doing everything he can to advance Boris' position without caring about what happens to anyone or anything other than Boris.

 

[Takhisis]

So British that it can screw the Irish even with a glancing blow.

We in Northern Ireland are sick of being pawns in the Brexit game
The public have protocol fatigue. It’s time for politicians to find some good faith and repair the damage already caused

Being from Northern Ireland is exhausting. Being from Northern Ireland and experiencing Brexit is maddening. Two years ago Boris Johnson hailed the withdrawal agreement, which established the Northern Ireland protocol, as an “oven-ready” deal. The EU patted itself on the back. We knew better. We had an inkling of what was to come.

Spoiler :

Here we are, almost a year since the protocol was actually implemented, and we’re still talking about it. After declaring that there was no Irish Sea border, after ignoring the fact that businesses in Northern Ireland were sounding the alarm about its implications, the EU and the UK government are still trying to fix their mess.

In recent days, the EU has put forward proposals to address the issues under the protocol. It proposes to resolve concerns about medicines, cut paperwork in half and reduce sanitary and phytosanitary (SPS) checks. David Frost, the Brexit minister, has called for an intensive talks process and an entirely new protocol. The British government wants the European court of justice’s role removed. The spectre of article 16, allowing either side to suspend the protocol, has been raised again.

These are the opening pitches to another round of negotiations. We are to be entertained with another round of political theatre. Pray we don’t have a last-minute Christmas finale again.

I have protocol fatigue. I suspect most of Northern Ireland does as well. For all the political bluster and grandstanding, people want the protocol to be reformed and the matter resolved for good. They are fed up with the prospect of political instability and another protracted crisis.

Northern Ireland has a far more nuanced view of the protocol than some would have you believe. In a recent poll for the Belfast Telegraph, 48% said they opposed the protocol, and 43% were in favour. Most people were concerned about checks between Britain and the Northern Ireland. Few wanted checks to happen at the Irish border. However, two-thirds thought Northern Ireland needed specific arrangements in respect of Brexit. A majority believed the protocol provided opportunities.

In other words: we’re not happy about this and we want changes, but we’ll take it.

The government acts like people in Northern Ireland want this matter drawn out forever. They don’t. People will be watching the negotiations very closely over the next few weeks. They’ll be hoping for a resolution, not another round of jingoistic chest-beating.

As with everything in Northern Ireland, it’s complicated. Most people do not want a border down the Irish Sea or a border between north and south. To protect their own constitutional preference, some will accept one to prevent the other. That, ultimately, is where the conflict lies.

Unionists believe the protocol affects Northern Ireland’s place in the union. The DUP leader, Jeffrey Donaldson, says the EU’s proposals “fall short of what is required”. The other unionist parties aren’t impressed either. No amount of procedural reform will be enough for some because they don’t address constitutional concerns. What is the alternative?

Nationalists and Republicans will support the protocol if the alternative leads to a hard border between north and south. The others, neither orange nor green, are broadly pro-remain and will support closer links with the EU. But it’s quite clear that the protocol isn’t acceptable in its current form. So what now?

As the polls show, the public is prepared to meet in the middle. We’ve always been pragmatic. The people of Northern Ireland are, as always, ahead of their politicians.

Dominic Cummings claimed the government signed the withdrawal agreement with the intention of reneging on the protocol. Ian Paisley Junior said Johnson told him a similar story. It was all some game of clever 3D chess, you see – brought to you by the people who were also able to cause a national run on petrol forecourts. Are we really supposed to believe that this was ploy all along?

True or not, the comments confirm what many already know: this government can’t be trusted. It cares only for itself and nobody else. In that Belfast Telegraph poll, only 5% of people said they had faith in the government. For different reasons, trust in the EU commission isn’t high either. The EU and the British government need to get this right. The government needs to engage in good faith. With both sides prepared to go back to the negotiating table, there’s an opportunity to fix the damage inflicted by the agreement in 2019.

Nobody can work miracles. No solution will keep everyone happy. Political actors need to be realistic. Unionists should not make the same mistake twice, turn down a good deal and cut their noses off to spite their face. Any solution needs to balance competing interests and respect constitutional sensitivities.

Brexit carves a path through complicated history. We’ll be standing in its shadow for a long time. The protocol is Northern Ireland’s Brexit reality. We deserve better than what’s currently on the table. We deserve better than years and years of endless bluster and chaos.

• Sarah Creighton is a lawyer, writer and political commentator from Northern Ireland

 

[Hrothbern]

So British that it can screw the Irish even with a glancing blow.

We in Northern Ireland are sick of being pawns in the Brexit game
The public have protocol fatigue. It’s time for politicians to find some good faith and repair the damage already caused

Being from Northern Ireland is exhausting. Being from Northern Ireland and experiencing Brexit is maddening. Two years ago Boris Johnson hailed the withdrawal agreement, which established the Northern Ireland protocol, as an “oven-ready” deal. The EU patted itself on the back. We knew better. We had an inkling of what was to come.

Spoiler :

Here we are, almost a year since the protocol was actually implemented, and we’re still talking about it. After declaring that there was no Irish Sea border, after ignoring the fact that businesses in Northern Ireland were sounding the alarm about its implications, the EU and the UK government are still trying to fix their mess.

In recent days, the EU has put forward proposals to address the issues under the protocol. It proposes to resolve concerns about medicines, cut paperwork in half and reduce sanitary and phytosanitary (SPS) checks. David Frost, the Brexit minister, has called for an intensive talks process and an entirely new protocol. The British government wants the European court of justice’s role removed. The spectre of article 16, allowing either side to suspend the protocol, has been raised again.

These are the opening pitches to another round of negotiations. We are to be entertained with another round of political theatre. Pray we don’t have a last-minute Christmas finale again.

I have protocol fatigue. I suspect most of Northern Ireland does as well. For all the political bluster and grandstanding, people want the protocol to be reformed and the matter resolved for good. They are fed up with the prospect of political instability and another protracted crisis.

Northern Ireland has a far more nuanced view of the protocol than some would have you believe. In a recent poll for the Belfast Telegraph, 48% said they opposed the protocol, and 43% were in favour. Most people were concerned about checks between Britain and the Northern Ireland. Few wanted checks to happen at the Irish border. However, two-thirds thought Northern Ireland needed specific arrangements in respect of Brexit. A majority believed the protocol provided opportunities.

In other words: we’re not happy about this and we want changes, but we’ll take it.

The government acts like people in Northern Ireland want this matter drawn out forever. They don’t. People will be watching the negotiations very closely over the next few weeks. They’ll be hoping for a resolution, not another round of jingoistic chest-beating.

As with everything in Northern Ireland, it’s complicated. Most people do not want a border down the Irish Sea or a border between north and south. To protect their own constitutional preference, some will accept one to prevent the other. That, ultimately, is where the conflict lies.

Unionists believe the protocol affects Northern Ireland’s place in the union. The DUP leader, Jeffrey Donaldson, says the EU’s proposals “fall short of what is required”. The other unionist parties aren’t impressed either. No amount of procedural reform will be enough for some because they don’t address constitutional concerns. What is the alternative?

Nationalists and Republicans will support the protocol if the alternative leads to a hard border between north and south. The others, neither orange nor green, are broadly pro-remain and will support closer links with the EU. But it’s quite clear that the protocol isn’t acceptable in its current form. So what now?

As the polls show, the public is prepared to meet in the middle. We’ve always been pragmatic. The people of Northern Ireland are, as always, ahead of their politicians.

Dominic Cummings claimed the government signed the withdrawal agreement with the intention of reneging on the protocol. Ian Paisley Junior said Johnson told him a similar story. It was all some game of clever 3D chess, you see – brought to you by the people who were also able to cause a national run on petrol forecourts. Are we really supposed to believe that this was ploy all along?

True or not, the comments confirm what many already know: this government can’t be trusted. It cares only for itself and nobody else. In that Belfast Telegraph poll, only 5% of people said they had faith in the government. For different reasons, trust in the EU commission isn’t high either. The EU and the British government need to get this right. The government needs to engage in good faith. With both sides prepared to go back to the negotiating table, there’s an opportunity to fix the damage inflicted by the agreement in 2019.

Nobody can work miracles. No solution will keep everyone happy. Political actors need to be realistic. Unionists should not make the same mistake twice, turn down a good deal and cut their noses off to spite their face. Any solution needs to balance competing interests and respect constitutional sensitivities.

Brexit carves a path through complicated history. We’ll be standing in its shadow for a long time. The protocol is Northern Ireland’s Brexit reality. We deserve better than what’s currently on the table. We deserve better than years and years of endless bluster and chaos.

• Sarah Creighton is a lawyer, writer and political commentator from Northern Ireland

I saw a couple of months ago an article of a on EU and Brexit well informed (Dutch) professor, writing regular columns in one of our newspapers on the EU, who prophesised some nasty moves from Westminster to come.

Also considering all the leaked info by Cummings and Paisley, etc, this is no real surprise.
Westminster is convinced that they play in the first League where there are no referees and rules anymore other than power.

 

[Arakhor]

Perfidious Albion used to be a 19th Century meme. It's not supposed to be the watchword for UK diplomacy today!!

 

[Takhisis]

Why not, when it works out so well for those for whom it is supposed to work so well?

 

[Oerdin]

https://www.bbc.com/news/explainers-58868636.amp

Amazing how all these countries are, supposedly (if you listen to removers here), are being effected by Brexit. It is almost like the whole "try to blame everything on Brexit" talking point doesn't actually hold any water.

 

[AmazonQueen]

The Remainer establishment was very careful to ensure that
Nigel Farage was not leading the official Leave campaign.

One of the few careful decisions made

 

[Gorbles]

https://www.bbc.com/news/explainers-58868636.amp

Amazing how all these countries are, supposedly (if you listen to removers here), are being effected by Brexit. It is almost like the whole "try to blame everything on Brexit" talking point doesn't actually hold any water.

Who blamed everything on Brexit? Can I get you quoting anybody who blamed everything we're currently seeing solely on Brexit? Or is it just your usual hot air

Brexit is a major contributing factor, as is the government's management of the Covid-19 pandemic. As are any knock-on effects from other countries similarly affected. But none of this means that Brexit hasn't been a significant contributing factor. What you have here, in the absence of any other supporting data, is a "strawman".

 

[Takhisis]

Did somebody mention Nigel Farage and nonsense?

‘You haven’t got a clue’: Broadcaster shuts down Nigel Farage as he lectures her about Irish history
Brexit Party founder confronted with clip of him reciting hoax IRA message after he claimed Ireland was ‘governed by Europe’

An Irish broadcaster shut down Nigel Farage by confronting him on his knowledge of the country’s history after he claimed the country was “governed by” the EU.

Spoiler :

The former leader of Ukip and the Brexit Party took his anti-EU agitating onto Ireland’s airwaves on Monday, questioning why the nation was still part of the bloc during an appearance on RTE One’s Claire Byrne Live.

Speaking to Ms Byrne about the effects that Brexit has had on Britain and Northern Ireland, Mr Farage questioned why the Irish had fought the British for “500 often very bloody, difficult years.”

He added: “What was the point of it if you’re now governed by European commissioners?”

Ms Byrne said she thought viewers would be “entertained” by his remarks and decided to test the former politician’s knowledge of Ireland.

“I want people to see just how much you know about the history and culture on this island,” the presenter said.

The programme then cut to a video in which Mr Farage was tricked into reciting a republican message.

"I know it's early so I've only got coffee but I hope you enjoy a few pints with the lads tonight. Up the RA,” he says in the clip from Cameo, a website on which people can pay celebrities for recorded messages.

Ms Byrne then said: "I know that you said sorry and you get £87 and you have every right to do that.

“Come on, don’t try and lecture the Irish people about the culture and history and precarious nature of peace on this island, you haven’t got a clue.”

Mr Farage responded by insisting Ireland needed to have a debate over whether to become independent or not in the next few years.

He said: “Do you want to be an independent, democratic nation or governed by foreign bureaucrats? That’s the question that Ireland will ask itself.

“The Irish people wish to be independent or not and that is a debate that will happen in your country in the next few years.”

Ms Byrne was praised for confronting Mr Farage following the interview.

“Good on @ClaireByrneLive for showing up Farage for what he is - a mouthpiece for offence,” tweeted anti-Brexit campaign group Best for Britain.

(video included in the original article)

My personal impression is that Farridge is really clueless if he thinks that ‘join the English’ is a valid argument to convince the Irish to leave the EU.

 

[Kyriakos]

Will there ever be another referendum for Scottish independence?

 

[Ferocitus]

Will there ever be another referendum for Scottish independence?

Will the calls for Scottish independence ever end?

 

[Gorbles]

Will the calls for Scottish independence ever end?

Given that the Acts of Union only came about in the first place due to both countries sharing the same sovereign, I'd argue "probably not". Unless people want to die on the hill of defending the historic (and fantastical) divine right of kings as being a valid reason for such a thing.

 

[Samson]

Given that the Acts of Union only came about in the first place due to both countries sharing the same sovereign, I'd argue "probably not". Unless people want to die on the hill of defending the historic (and fantastical) divine right of kings as being a valid reason for such a thing.

I thought it largely came about because we managed to get the wealthy to the doorstep of bankruptcy by blocking supply of the Panama colony, so we could bail them out at the cost of the national sovereignty.

 

[really]

Nigel Farage getting called out for lecturing Irish people about our history.

Spoiler In case you don't get it :

Nigel does greetings for money, someone paid him to say 'up the RA' presumably not realising he was cheering on the IRA